BF2S Forums The real death toll

lowing wrote:

Marconius wrote:

No matter which way this goes, it always comes down to where people start considering a fetus an actual human being.  An in vitro fetus is a fetus, and becomes a full on baby at the end of the 3rd trimester; a full on person directly at birth as soon as doctors can cut the cord and establish his or her identity.

Under those terms, an abortion is not murder, as there was no individual life to begin with.  The fetus is still part of the mother until it becomes fully self-sustainable at the end of term/birth.

Stingray, do you understand the full abortion process?  Have you been in a Planned Parenthood clinic?

Plus, you are assuming that everyone believes that every living thing has a "soul," which is very much NOT the case...

Reason number 984 to think you are repulsive. Babies can sustain life without being in the womb long before birth

Well speaking from personal experience ... My step daughter is currently 28 weeks pregnant with her first. Two weeks ago we had to rush her off to hospital to have her inflamed appendix taken out. She spent the next three days and nights in a hospital bed doped up to the eyeballs on sedatives and growth hormones.

The sedatives were to counter her body's natural urge to go into a premature labor, while the growth hormones were to encourage growth of the lungs in the fetus. (I intentionally used the word fetus not baby or child). So two points I have learnt from this experience are ...

1) It was an extremely horrifying three days spent on a knife edge waiting to see what her body would do. That made me realize that not matter how many varied opinions we may have on the exact time a human life begins, the human body will ALWAYS defend itself. Even if it means evacuating (for want of a better word) a fetus from the womb in an effort to protect itself.

2) I know this will sound incredible cold, however if the baby were to be born then and there. (And I intentionally used the word baby) he/she would have had seriously underdeveloped lungs and would have been fighting for life attached to a respirator for weeks. So my second point, a fetus is not a baby, it is not a capable of life as we live it without serious help.

So IMO you can keep your moral judgments to yourself. A fetus is not a baby.

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:

Ya know, I will tell all of you this:

I am now 40.When I was 20 my girlfriend aborted our baby, with my blessing. I have since fathered 2 wonderful sons 9 and 10 now. I tell you, hardly a day goes by where I do not think about that decision. Especially when I play with my boys.

I promise you all this. If you do it, later in life when you become a parent, it will haunt you. I promise.

I'd rather it haunt me later than doom me forever. At the very least, anyone below the age of 18 should have the right to choose. After all, would you prefer to end one life quickly, or to end three slowly?

How can an unexpected child doom you?  You made the poor choice, didn't follow basic sexual engagement rules, and now you're complaining about a child dooming you - aka; selifishly realizing it's not all about you anymore.

While I don't support unwed parenting, let alone teen pregnancy, GOOD can always come of it.  Just watch that tear-jerking country music video "There goes my life!" and you'll see.  I forget the singers name...he's the handsome looking fellow that doesn't own a t-shirt.

As for Lowing's remarks, I agree.  My sister, now unable to get pregnant and wanting it more than ever, is depressed and pained to realize how foolish her earlier abortions were in her 20's...such abortions ruining her ability to grow a baby.

MastersMom wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

A foetus isn't a person. It is potentially a person. It's like calling an egg an omelette.

It would be much more like calling an egg a baby chick...sorry that just seemed very wrong to use the comparison the way you did.

Regardless, I didn't want to quote the whole post, but you also tried to make a point that fathers don't pay child support before a baby is born.  That is true, but I think the other person was trying to say, why is it that the mother gets the sole decision making power as to abort or keep the baby (legally it is her decision and hers alone...unfortunately).  So regardless of what the father wants, she can keep or abort the baby.  Let's say the father wants it, she aborts and he is left with nothing.  She has taken something from him that is scientifically half his.  But if the father doesn't want it and the mother does...she keeps it, and then the father has to pay child support even though he didn't want the baby.  Why wouldn't it be half his decision one way or the other?  I disagree with abortion, but if anyone is going to make the choice it should be father and mother to gether.  If they can't agree, have the baby and the person that wanted it gets full custody with no legal obligation to or from the person that didn't want it.

Bottom line, if you're grown up enough to choose to have sex, you should be grown up enough to deal with the results.

It's not half his. It's part of her body. When/if it becomes a child (is born), it becomes half his. Anything that happens while the foetus is part of the womans body is her decision, rightly so. If a woman doesn't ever want to give birth that is her decision, it could be for any reason, but she is the one who would decide. The father is physically uninvolved, that's why it is entirely the womans decision - because it's her body and she should decide what happens to it.

TeamZephyr wrote:

Clark W Griswald wrote:

So, if a guy punches a women in the stomach when she is pregnant, why is the punishment more severe?  And if she miscarries because of that punch, that person would be in big trouble.  Care to explain why and then tell me it is not a life?

Because she wanted to have the baby and did not consent to being punched in the stomach.

Say the baby is fine.

Why is the punishment more harsh for violence against pregnant women if it is "just a fetus?"

ScarletPimpFromHell wrote:

So IMO you can keep your moral judgments to yourself. A fetus is not a baby.

When my last child was born, in the hospital with us were some friends, Cris and Rita, and Rita had a high blood pressure related condition that required her fetus to be taken out.  I believe she was about half done (20 weeks) and while she had to stay around the preemie wing of the hospital for some time, that little child is a crazy, fully grown, psycho little child like mine are.  So I'd argue with you on your claim.

MastersMom wrote:

Saying there is no baby involved is your opinion.  That is literally the argument made in the courts to outlaw abortion is that it IS a baby and not just a fetus or lump of tissue.  There are millions of people that you will never be able to convince otherwise, that believe it is a baby and not just a fetus.

On another note, you said when a baby is aborted it doesn't know that it's been aborted because it hasn't experienced life in a normal way.  Well, you, I assume, have experience life in a normal way, but if someone were to sneak up behind you without you knowing it, and shoot you in the head and kill you, my guess is that you would not know that you had been shot in the head.  Does that mean it's ok?  Or is it only ok if you had not experienced life in a normal way?  What if the person that killed you thought your life was not normal, or that you were not experiencing life in a normal way and then they killed you by surprise and you didn't know what happened?  Than would it be ok?

A fully grown adult, or child, is concious of who, what, where it is. A foetus is not. It is a very different matter.

In my opinion it's only really a baby once it can survive outside the womb without serious medical intervention (that's not to say that I agree with abortions up to that point - but where do you draw the line, is the morning after pill murder? How about condoms? That's why they were banned by the Catholic church). The brain of a foetus hasn't developed enough for it be in any way sentient, so it isn't a person. Sentience is what makes people people, it is our very conciousness. If I were to try to define a soul then conciousness would be at the very heart of that definition.

When the sperm reaches the egg the DNA starts to combine and change.  At that moment it is genetically distinct from the mother.  At that point it is a genetically distinct being.  My messed up brother thinks black people are monkeys and it should be okay to kill them.  It is easy to say "your brother is a dumbass," and leave it at that, but I think the real question is - What makes a human a human?  I think the only real way to classify them is genetically.  Embryos are distinct from their mothers, and they are human.

I do believe in abortion in the cases of danger to the mother or in the cases of rape or incest, but these things account for less than 4percent of abortions (according to my Personal Ethics textbook, although I do wonder where the numbers come from since I would think that most mothers abort anonymously).  It is very safe to say, however, that most abortions are simply sick ass birth control.

I have a friend that actually went to an abortion clinic with his girlfriend, but they decided at the last minute that they couldn't do it.  His son is 4 now, and the only time I have ever seen him cry was when he talked to me about what he would be missing had he gone through with it.

I have a daughter that is nine months old, and the very thought of abortion makes me feel sick to my stomach.  I really don't think you can truly understand how enormous the abortion thing is until you have a child of your own.

"People who believe in abortion are already born." Ronald Wilson Reagan

Bertster7, you really are a confused pothead.

Last edited by weamo8 (2006-11-02 16:21:21)

weamo8 wrote:

When the sperm reaches the egg the DNA starts to combine and change.  At that moment it is genetically distinct from the mother.  At that point it is a genetically distinct being.  My messed up brother thinks black people are monkeys and it should be okay to kill them.  It is easy to say "your brother is a dumbass," and leave it at that, but I think the real question is - What makes a human a human?  I think the only real way to classify them is genetically.  Embryos are distinct from their mothers, and they are human.

What does make a human a human. I would say conciousness. People are defined by their brain activity and by our experiences, something that is very different inside a foetus. Which is the main reason I don't count foetuses as babies.

Bertster7 wrote:

MastersMom wrote:

I am finished with you now.  Good luck and God help you.

I think that says all that needs to be said about the abortion debate.

God, seems to almost invariably be the devisory factor.

It's hard to look at something objectively when religion becomes involved. Exactly the reason religion should never play a part in any debate about abortion.

Please read back through all of my posts and tell me how many times I said anything about religion.  Morals and religious beliefs are not the same thing.  Do I believe in God?  Yes.  Do I disagree with abortion because God tells me to?  No.  I think abortion is murder.  I think murder is wrong.  But feel free to take my words out of context to fit your needs however you like.

ohh I don't want any part of this one... (walks away)

IRONCHEF wrote:

ScarletPimpFromHell wrote:

So IMO you can keep your moral judgments to yourself. A fetus is not a baby.

When my last child was born, in the hospital with us were some friends, Cris and Rita, and Rita had a high blood pressure related condition that required her fetus to be taken out.  I believe she was about half done (20 weeks) and while she had to stay around the preemie wing of the hospital for some time, that little child is a crazy, fully grown, psycho little child like mine are.  So I'd argue with you on your claim.

What is the legal time frame for an abortion in the US ? Would that same "child" have survived if "born" given  the same amount to develop? I think not. It is only through centuries of medical science do we have the knowledge and skill to accelerate growth rates in premature babies to give them a fighting chance. Not quite playing God in the process but giving it a damn good nudge.

Don't get me wrong, I would have been absolutely devastated if Katherine (my step daughter) had taken a turn for the worst and the baby didn't survive. EVERY possible, conceivable effort should be made to save a premature baby (notice I use the word baby here again). After all that baby will be loved in a family that wants children. Otherwise that mother would have not chosen to go full term.

However if an expectant mother - for whatever reason - chooses not to go full term and terminate her pregnancy and remove the foetis, that is her decision. Once again, the fetus is in a stage where it can not be expected to survive no matter how much accelerated growth can be offered.

Stingray24 wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

weamo8 wrote:

When the sperm reaches the egg the DNA starts to combine and change.  At that moment it is genetically distinct from the mother.  At that point it is a genetically distinct being.  My messed up brother thinks black people are monkeys and it should be okay to kill them.  It is easy to say "your brother is a dumbass," and leave it at that, but I think the real question is - What makes a human a human?  I think the only real way to classify them is genetically.  Embryos are distinct from their mothers, and they are human.

What does make a human a human. I would say conciousness. People are defined by their brain activity and by our experiences, something that is very different inside a foetus. Which is the main reason I don't count foetuses as babies.

Now unconscious people aren't human?!?!??!?!??!???!??!  He's gone off the deep end.

People with no consciousness, absolutely. If someone is braindead then they are no longer a person. Being unconscious (knocked out or something similar) is very different to never being aware in the first place.