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RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,700|5543|Oxferd Ohire
All my grade school friends were into vanhalen/kiss/gnr.
So of course I got into them. And of course I didn't like my parents led zepp and fleetwood mac and beatles
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+431|2526
I like Fleetwood Mac a lot. Beatles are super blah. Rolling Stones much better.
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+756|5491|United States of America

uziq wrote:

i would put classic rock and its listeners a generation behind nirvana and grunge. that was very much gen x stuff.

classic rock is the canonical, album-oriented stuff. all the usual big names: led zep, pink flloyd, rolling stones, beatles. the eagles, beach boys, fleetwood mac. jimi hendrix and memories of 'nam, you know.

generationally, i'd say it includes the 1980s and the harder stuff that came out then. guns & roses, ac/dc, def leppard, etc.

but i think 1990s music was a counter-culture that was explicitly in reaction to 'classic' rock and things like metal, especially the silliness of glam rock, hair metal, etc. all that stuff with men on stage in platform shoes and sequined leotards. nirvana swept all of that away in the 1990s and the music was released (then) on smaller, underground labels, and started talking about things like 'authenticity' and 'cool' a lot more. so came the birth of gen x.

semantics, though, i know. i take your point.
You're absolutely right about classification of it. The radio stations have generous interpretations of their genres. Pretty sure I once heard Run DMC on a classic rock station.
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,700|5543|Oxferd Ohire
It's tricky?
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+756|5491|United States of America
You know it, son.
uziq
Member
+380|2258

DesertFox- wrote:

uziq wrote:

i would put classic rock and its listeners a generation behind nirvana and grunge. that was very much gen x stuff.

classic rock is the canonical, album-oriented stuff. all the usual big names: led zep, pink flloyd, rolling stones, beatles. the eagles, beach boys, fleetwood mac. jimi hendrix and memories of 'nam, you know.

generationally, i'd say it includes the 1980s and the harder stuff that came out then. guns & roses, ac/dc, def leppard, etc.

but i think 1990s music was a counter-culture that was explicitly in reaction to 'classic' rock and things like metal, especially the silliness of glam rock, hair metal, etc. all that stuff with men on stage in platform shoes and sequined leotards. nirvana swept all of that away in the 1990s and the music was released (then) on smaller, underground labels, and started talking about things like 'authenticity' and 'cool' a lot more. so came the birth of gen x.

semantics, though, i know. i take your point.
You're absolutely right about classification of it. The radio stations have generous interpretations of their genres. Pretty sure I once heard Run DMC on a classic rock station.
there's the whole punk/post-punk thing running through the same order of events, too, and things in the 1980s like new wave, new romantics, and so on. but i don't know if that ever truly had a mainstream radio listening in the same way that classic rock/hard rock did. that was more of an arty, avant-garde, bohemian thing. CBGB's in new york, warhol/the factory, the velvet underground, the ramones, etc...
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+431|2526
Is the Cure classic rock? It's Friday.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,900|5438|949

I'd put them in the new wave category
uziq
Member
+380|2258
new wave/post-punk, yeah, part of that sparse late 80's thing w/ lots of effects pedals, reverb/echo, spare electronics, etc.
Pochsy
Artifice of Eternity
+699|4349|Toronto


I've been re-listening to the Bound 2049 fan-made album of remixes of Kanye tracks. If ^that^ resonates, the full experience is found here:

https://kanye2049.com

Edit -- And since I'm really talking to like 8 people, here's one just for Uzique (from same project):

Last edited by Pochsy (2021-01-08 19:17:27)

The shape of an eye in front of the ocean, digging for stones and throwing them against its window pane. Take it down dreamer, take it down deep. - Other Families
uziq
Member
+380|2258
as sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, the mashup is the lowest form of music.

it takes zero creativity at all to sync two songs together in software these days. the DAWs will even do the time-stretching and pitch-shifting to perfectly quantise the beats together.

oh great, another rapper/producer just played aphex twin’s most popular ever song over the top of some generic trap 808s or stitched it to the most popular rap album of year xyz in ableton. they really had to dig deep for that beat!

let me guess, you were really really into Girl Talk in college too?

i also really don’t like kendrick’s voice, never have. sounds like he is constantly hyperventilating or gulping for air. it’s a really good match for that, er, lachrymose piano melody.

Last edited by uziq (2021-01-08 23:12:33)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,715|4912|eXtreme to the maX
If mashup is the lowest form of wit then DJing must be lowest form of performance art.
Its not even art, just syncing up two tracks then sitting on your ass.
Epstein didn't kill himself
Pochsy
Artifice of Eternity
+699|4349|Toronto

uziq wrote:

as sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, the mashup is the lowest form of music.

it takes zero creativity at all to sync two songs together in software these days. the DAWs will even do the time-stretching and pitch-shifting to perfectly quantise the beats together.

oh great, another rapper/producer just played aphex twin’s most popular ever song over the top of some generic trap 808s or stitched it to the most popular rap album of year xyz in ableton. they really had to dig deep for that beat!

let me guess, you were really really into Girl Talk in college too?

i also really don’t like kendrick’s voice, never have. sounds like he is constantly hyperventilating or gulping for air. it’s a really good match for that, er, lachrymose piano melody.
Boy, whole lot to unpack there. Let's start with the assumptions:

1.) Appreciable art is based in the difficulty of the composition
2.) Creative value is determined by the degree of abstraction from the original muse/starting point
3.) Lyrics delivered by voices with imperfections are undesirable


I'm not going to devolve into pointing at random artists to make my point, but I think we're going to need to examine all of folk music and just about all minimalist electronic music/
The shape of an eye in front of the ocean, digging for stones and throwing them against its window pane. Take it down dreamer, take it down deep. - Other Families
uziq
Member
+380|2258
none of those assumptions are valid. are you amazed by the novelty of someone playing avril 14th and kendrick lamar over the top of one another? let me introduce you to the concept of DJ'ing. you find two songs at the same BPM, you sync them, and you play them both at the same time! wowsers!

whatever will this auteur come up with next? maybe an ariana grande acapella over darude's sandstorm?!?

it sounds like shit, it's not an interesting re-contextualisation or détournement, it's the musical equivalent of a frat party.

do you really prefer listening to a piece of music like avril 14th with a hyped-up rap verse over it? do you have ears? what are you, a puppy?

Last edited by uziq (2021-01-09 04:24:51)

Pochsy
Artifice of Eternity
+699|4349|Toronto
I'm familiar with how the track was produced. The assumptions are not valid (thanks for confirming), yet you double down by again pointing to the simplicity of the composition. See recently discarded assumption #1, and extrapolate to what my concern might be.

What I am most amazed with, really, is that a dude who greatly enjoys what is perhaps the least accessible and opaque electronic music with ultra-minimalist arrangements can be so confused as to how someone else can like...something simple.

I understand you don't like hip hop, generally. I do. There is no deeper criticism to be had.
The shape of an eye in front of the ocean, digging for stones and throwing them against its window pane. Take it down dreamer, take it down deep. - Other Families
uziq
Member
+380|2258
song iz bad. move on.

i do like hip-hop, i spent all of NYE listening to MF DOOM and having a good little group tribute to a much-missed artist with my friends. kendrick isn't to my tastes personally, but that isn't really the point here. why would you put a hyped up rap verse over a placid, sentimental, slow, lachrymose song? is the direct contrast interesting to you? does it evoke interesting, complex emotions?

kanye sampled that song in an interesting way. it was an interesting citation within the context of MBDTF. a nod towards a major influence; it made sense.

the 'mash-up' isn't anything like so mature. the mash-up is just surface-level revelry in clashing two things together. oh! oh! let's do 'the clash' and 'rock the kasbah' over a reggaeton song! let's put elvis over some reggae! let's put britney spears over the prodigy! whooopeee!

the mash-up is the musical equivalent of putting tomato ketchup on everything you eat. who can possibly be interested in that shit beyond 20 seconds of novelty? song iz bad, move on.

Last edited by uziq (2021-01-09 04:38:15)

Pochsy
Artifice of Eternity
+699|4349|Toronto
Just like tomato ketchup, after eating 808s and Heartbreak for while it's a nice change.

Is the emotional response complex? No. Not at all. Like a lot of hip hop it pretty much ends at "damn, that's fucking fire". Like a good dance track that elevates the mood. Maybe it's the contrast between the back-track and the lyrical delivery. Maybe it's the easy digestibility. Maybe it's just that it's a new way to hear an old banger.

I don't even want to know how you feel about collages in visual art.
The shape of an eye in front of the ocean, digging for stones and throwing them against its window pane. Take it down dreamer, take it down deep. - Other Families
uziq
Member
+380|2258
collage can be interesting. do you really want to get into a discursus on surrealist collage over a fucking basic mash-up of two pop songs? come on.

a mash-up has a lifespan of approximately one play. after that, it's dead. it's literally landfill. the best that can be said of them is that they pique the attention of drunken punters at bad nightclub shows or at sorority parties. it's really silly stuff. the raised-hands of recognition. the novelty of the thing.







OmFg!!!!

Last edited by uziq (2021-01-09 04:50:42)

Pochsy
Artifice of Eternity
+699|4349|Toronto
Ah, I knew we'd get into posting random artists to make a point.

So, as is tradition at BF2S, here's my contribution to "OmFg!!!!" mash-ups with zero shelf life. You might recognize the song as having launched an entire career, and it happened without an ounce of original music being included. Admittedly, this is many times more complex than the Kanye mash-up, but I think we're talking about the general value of remixes here, so I'm calling it fair play:



I've finished my breakfast grapefruit and have things to do this morning, but I'll be back later tonight to consider why my taste in music is bad, I should feel bad, and am likely a bad person for having brought this to the table.
The shape of an eye in front of the ocean, digging for stones and throwing them against its window pane. Take it down dreamer, take it down deep. - Other Families
uziq
Member
+380|2258
it's not random artists, it's an album of aphex twin mash-ups with rap songs. isn't that what you love? you should be thanking me.

madeon is live sampling that mash-up in real-time. it's like araabmuzik. it's entirely different to just playing two songs on top of one another for a 'mash-up', like in all the examples linked above. what madeon does is cut those things into slices/loops and then live trigger them on a device. it's more akin to beat-making on old MPCs. it involves actually playing an instrument and, yes, collaging many sources together in original, inventive ways.

i knew you'd like stuff like madeon which is why i mentioned girl talk in my original post. it's the same schtick. sampling popular songs into little beat medleys. as i said, the main 'draw' and appeal seems to be recognizing lots of pop songs in different contexts. that's great, i guess.

i didn't say all remixes were low-value. some of my very favourite songs are remixes. but if you can't hear the difference between a live performance, as in madeon, and a kendrick acapella being played over avril 14th, i don't know what to say to you. my criticism is entirely  sound when i say the latter is superficial, played-out, and not very interesting. how many rappers have used avril 14th at this point ffs? booooooring. we get it, rappers, you know one of the most famous electronic musician's most famous songs.

here is a creative remix, seeing as you find me actually recommending music so tiresome.





the kendrick mash-up is not even on the same order of interest or creativity. it's a ball of yarn for a bored cat.

there are many legendary albums of people cutting up things into slices/beats and making new productions. that's just sampling/MPC culture generally. it's not limited to the insipidity of 'mash-ups'. check out something like bullion's 'pet sounds', made exclusively using beach boys samples, or, for an old hip-hop head album, edan's 'beauty and the beat'. these are all made exclusively using 'chopped and screwed' samples from legendary source material. they're all way, way more interesting than a 2-bit mash-up.

Last edited by uziq (2021-01-09 05:13:06)

Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|5582|Moscow, Russia
@Pochsy: i've seen some people who were really good at those tap-the-mat video games. none of those i'd call good dancers though.

edit: fuck you again, zeek.

Last edited by Shahter (2021-01-09 05:12:03)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
uziq
Member
+380|2258
shahter, playing samples like that is musical. it is creative. let's not get into some tiresome discussion of 'oh, they're not playing a cello or an oboe so it's not musical'.

i am not talking about live performances of songs like madeon at all. what he is doing is entirely different from a producer playing 2 songs over the top of one another.

Last edited by uziq (2021-01-09 05:14:35)

uziq
Member
+380|2258

creative sampling and screwing, 'culture jamming'.


creative remixing.
Pochsy
Artifice of Eternity
+699|4349|Toronto
No argument--the remixes referred to are indeed more complex and creatively deep. I'd propose only a simple question for your consideration: would you have thought to overlay Kendrick's gritty vocals with what is arguably Aphex Twin's most emotionally evocative composition? My point is that if Warhol can take a can of fucking soup and have revered as art, I'm willing to make a stretch for this.
The shape of an eye in front of the ocean, digging for stones and throwing them against its window pane. Take it down dreamer, take it down deep. - Other Families
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|5582|Moscow, Russia
you are tilting at windmills. both of you. listen to yourselves - creativity, complexity, touchy, feely, blah blah blah, it's all totally subjective. "art" exists entirely in the eye of the beholder. you can study techniques, trends and all that, but it's nigh impossible to define the stuff.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

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