This is the same number that died on September 11th.
How is this war not one of the biggest shambles/mistakes/bungles of the last 100 years?
How is this war not one of the biggest shambles/mistakes/bungles of the last 100 years?
What about the UN sanction which killed over 1 mill of Iraqis. And this was before 9/11.
All i can say is that some human life on this worth is more valuable depending on your nationality. It's disgusting, and as long as you will have this kind of unjustice. You will have extreme nuts who will kill more people.
All i can say is that some human life on this worth is more valuable depending on your nationality. It's disgusting, and as long as you will have this kind of unjustice. You will have extreme nuts who will kill more people.
Like most Wars its not a just war...Bush used 9/11 as a reason to invade iraq for there oil...he obviously does'nt think life is worth more than money!
Bush appears to be taking the Mel Gibson/William Wallace approach to freeeeeeeeeedom!
Haha, nice. +1Bubbalo wrote:
Bush appears to be taking the Mel Gibson/William Wallace approach to freeeeeeeeeedom!
I don't seriously understand how people can still be in support of the war in Iraq, with the prison abuse scandals, imprisonment without trial, and killing of innocent people. Some people blow my mind...
What gets me is why Americans didn't see through all the bullshit while the Iraq melodrama was still being played out in the UN. Pure theatrical build-up to a war they wanted to fight for reasons known only to the PNAC.
Care to offer evidence ?_lecro_ wrote:
Bush used 9/11 as a reason to invade iraq for there oil...!
Here is what needs to happen.. Have the Iraqi's vote simply yes or no if they want an immediate withdraw. Have an international organization monitor the voting process. Yes, it's that simple
Xbone Stormsurgezz
I think you are referring to the Oil for Food program which Saddam wasted on things like golden toilets, T72 Tanks, French NVGs, Armored Limos, and all the other wasted money like the MOAB mosque that he had built after Desert Storm to celebrate his Victory over the Allied Nations.bogo24dk wrote:
What about the UN sanction which killed over 1 mill of Iraqis. And this was before 9/11.
All i can say is that some human life on this worth is more valuable depending on your nationality. It's disgusting, and as long as you will have this kind of unjustice. You will have extreme nuts who will kill more people.
Yessir! that was UN sanctioned Death......
The whole reason for Oil for Food was to try and keep saddam from rebuilding his military to try and take out Kuwait or someone else again, not to starve the masses.
No, Saddam Hussein caused those 1 million deaths. But you're right, your nationality does make a difference..ie., Any African country.bogo24dk wrote:
What about the UN sanction which killed over 1 mill of Iraqis. And this was before 9/11.
All i can say is that some human life on this worth is more valuable depending on your nationality. It's disgusting, and as long as you will have this kind of unjustice. You will have extreme nuts who will kill more people.
Most americans didn't see through it, many did, including myself. I've never supported this war (i was with that small handful of peaceful senators calling bullshit). When i saw the tv coverage of the armor running across the sand like a wild western film, with katie couric yellin' "yaaaahoooooo!! navy seals rock!!" and all the shock and awe BS...it was even easier to see how much our country had changed. 2003 was a sad, sad time. of course, i had no idea how much was BS (wmds, etc) but I did notice that right before the invasion, bush changed the theme from WMDs to "liberation" as if it was obvious he had no real reason for going in. "Iraqi Freedom?" What happened to the "nookular" threat? The "mushroom cloud" threat Condi lied about through that uneducated gap in her teeth.cameron_poe wrote:
What gets me is why Americans didn't see through all the bullshit while the Iraq melodrama was still being played out in the UN. Pure theatrical build-up to a war they wanted to fight for reasons known only to the PNAC.
Shitty intelligence.CameronPoe wrote:
Pure theatrical build-up to a war they wanted to fight for reasons known only to the PNAC.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Apparently they had good intelligence (pre-9/11 intel said he didn't have jack) then all of a sudden, thanks to warmongering leaders who gave credence to a paid defector's words...we have all the intel we need to produce the fearmonger campaign.Kmarion wrote:
Shitty intelligence.CameronPoe wrote:
Pure theatrical build-up to a war they wanted to fight for reasons known only to the PNAC.
But in general, I've never been so embarrassed about how dumb our government is compared to how I felt about them in the 90's and prior. Maybe having no-talent assclown cronies running everything since 2000 is the reason. Even though they're doing a "heckuva job" they obviously don't know what they're doing.
I agreed with the invasion of Afghanistan. Simply because those responsible for 9/11 were known to be there. The invasion of Iraq was never justified. You can say shitty intellegence, however spy sattelites that can read a license plate from space should have been able to detect mobile weapons labs which were total fabrications by this administration.
I agree with Ironchef a vote for withdarw by the Iraqi people. Once we withdraw Bush and his administration need to be brought up on charges for the deaths of innocents in Iraq. As commander in chief he needs to be held accountable for this debocal. We also need to show the world that we the US can and will make mistakes, but when we do, we hold those who are responsible accountable. I does not matter which reason for invasion they want to use, it was not enough to justify the lives of almost 3000 american soldiers and the limbs of tens of thousands more.
I agree with Ironchef a vote for withdarw by the Iraqi people. Once we withdraw Bush and his administration need to be brought up on charges for the deaths of innocents in Iraq. As commander in chief he needs to be held accountable for this debocal. We also need to show the world that we the US can and will make mistakes, but when we do, we hold those who are responsible accountable. I does not matter which reason for invasion they want to use, it was not enough to justify the lives of almost 3000 american soldiers and the limbs of tens of thousands more.
I would have agreed that afghanistan was a good invasion idea, but not setting a date and time for it after giving them tons of time to plan out 10 years of hit and run, hide and mock preparations. Seriously, every week that ticked by after 9/11 and all the fear mongering, the UN bs, the rallying of a coalition of the willing, the MSM showing battle plans and all the circus that was going on, i sat wondering "If I were Osama, I'd be laughing in my luxury cave at how horrible they've managed this." I'd also be realizing that the US has conventional warfare down perfectly..but it has no idea how to hit the mountains..just like it had no idea how to hit the jungles of vietnam. But hey, we were determined to smoke him out of his hole (and other catchy slogans)..yada yada yada.
Oh, it was someone else suggesting giving iraqis a vote to rid themselves of us. I disagree with that because it could not happen, and besides, they have a president who alone has that power...if he was the real president of a real sovereign nation..which he obviously isn't.
Oh, it was someone else suggesting giving iraqis a vote to rid themselves of us. I disagree with that because it could not happen, and besides, they have a president who alone has that power...if he was the real president of a real sovereign nation..which he obviously isn't.
The UN sanction where imposed on Iraq because the US had evidently proof that Saddam had wdm and was about to build a Nuclear bomb. Which we all know now that is false. I always asked myself one quite obvious question. If he had those Wdm's then why didn't he use it on the Americans. Obviously he didn't hesitate to use it on the Kurds. Was it maybe cause the US government knew very well that he didn't have any and he didn't pose a threat. And even he did buy tanks and ak-47 he wouldn't had invaded Kuwait. Saddam is a typical dictator, he cares more about his behind then anything else. Lot of good was done putting a embargo on false info and expecting for a dictator to care about his people. You have to be born yesterday to not understand that this embargo was like signing a death warrant for 1 mill people.CannonFodder11b wrote:
I think you are referring to the Oil for Food program which Saddam wasted on things like golden toilets, T72 Tanks, French NVGs, Armored Limos, and all the other wasted money like the MOAB mosque that he had built after Desert Storm to celebrate his Victory over the Allied Nations.bogo24dk wrote:
What about the UN sanction which killed over 1 mill of Iraqis. And this was before 9/11.
All i can say is that some human life on this worth is more valuable depending on your nationality. It's disgusting, and as long as you will have this kind of unjustice. You will have extreme nuts who will kill more people.
Yessir! that was UN sanctioned Death......
The whole reason for Oil for Food was to try and keep saddam from rebuilding his military to try and take out Kuwait or someone else again, not to starve the masses.
actually in 2003 some chemical weapons were found, accidently by insurgents as they were setting up a 155mm arty shell for an IED. The device went off and they were killed. Now we recovered some but not enough for all the news agencies to give a rats ass about. Also if Saddam could hide Long Range bobmers in the sand ...(LONG range bombers mind you, not the fighter bomber sort) That only got uncovered enough for a passing patrol to notice a tail wing hanging out of the sand, then who are we to say what else is in the desert. And I know for a fact there is not one unit combing the vaste open ground in this country. SO I cannot say IF he had tons of WMDs, or a little. There sure is a lot of wasteland in this country......bogo24dk wrote:
The UN sanction where imposed on Iraq because the US had evidently proof that Saddam had wdm and was about to build a Nuclear bomb. Which we all know now that is false. I always asked myself one quite obvious question. If he had those Wdm's then why didn't he use it on the Americans. Obviously he didn't hesitate to use it on the Kurds. Was it maybe cause the US government knew very well that he didn't have any and he didn't pose a threat. And even he did buy tanks and ak-47 he wouldn't had invaded Kuwait. Saddam is a typical dictator, he cares more about his behind then anything else. Lot of good was done putting a embargo on false info and expecting for a dictator to care about his people. You have to be born yesterday to not understand that this embargo was like signing a death warrant for 1 mill people.CannonFodder11b wrote:
I think you are referring to the Oil for Food program which Saddam wasted on things like golden toilets, T72 Tanks, French NVGs, Armored Limos, and all the other wasted money like the MOAB mosque that he had built after Desert Storm to celebrate his Victory over the Allied Nations.bogo24dk wrote:
What about the UN sanction which killed over 1 mill of Iraqis. And this was before 9/11.
All i can say is that some human life on this worth is more valuable depending on your nationality. It's disgusting, and as long as you will have this kind of unjustice. You will have extreme nuts who will kill more people.
Yessir! that was UN sanctioned Death......
The whole reason for Oil for Food was to try and keep saddam from rebuilding his military to try and take out Kuwait or someone else again, not to starve the masses.
And if he wasn't hiding something why did he not allow UN weapons inspectors in to his plants the first oh I dunno 30 times they showed up to inspect various areas.... why did he clean up before he allowed then to inspect. I dunno seems kinda odd....
But then again people like you must think Saddam was a saint.
(and the Oil for Food thing started after Desert Storm.... around the same time there was a no fly zone established around Iraq. It was imposed to keep him from attacking another country again, and also to keep Iran from attacking Iraq.... remember Iran/Iraq war? Yeah they still aint forgiven Saddam and were more then happy to see him get his ass kicked twice)
Last edited by CannonFodder11b (2006-10-25 13:45:53)
I'm just wondering who is causing all of the casualties. The insurgents kill more Iraqis than they do Americans. Obviously our soldiers kill some civilians, but all war has collateral damage. However, I would argue that a large part of the blame for the collateral damage lies with the insurgents because they hide amongst civilians like cowards. Our troops have no idea who their enemy is, so I don't blame them for having itchy trigger fingers.
At present, the majority of the deaths are Iraqi's killing Iraqis. And apparently they CAN tell the difference between themselves (sunni vs. shi'ite). US forces probably aren't as careful as they purport ("we always attempt to avoid civilian casualties" yet they cluster bombed a village because of a single person they were chasing entered that village).kilgoretrout wrote:
I'm just wondering who is causing all of the casualties. The insurgents kill more Iraqis than they do Americans. Obviously our soldiers kill some civilians, but all war has collateral damage. However, I would argue that a large part of the blame for the collateral damage lies with the insurgents because they hide amongst civilians like cowards. Our troops have no idea who their enemy is, so I don't blame them for having itchy trigger fingers.
Insurgents, by US and Iraqi estimates (insurgents = non-iraqi combatants) are a very, very small number and they are focused mainly on killing americans, and partially helping the sunni element though their ideology is completely different.
And yes, "all war has collateral damage" but when the war was illegally waged like this, it's not just common warfare... And for the most advanced military in the world, backed up by the most brilliant intelligence agency in the world, surely they could learn who is who and adjust their tactics. But hey, like you, I'm not on the ground and in the know.
Who said that you need a bomber to fire WDM's off. You can fire the successfully with a scud missiles, which Saddam had plenty of those. In fact in the first gulf war he fired all the way in Israel. He had the means to fire WDM's off. There is no doubt about that. But did he had any left ?.......It's clear that he had none left, or he would have used it.CannonFodder11b wrote:
actually in 2003 some chemical weapons were found, accidently by insurgents as they were setting up a 155mm arty shell for an IED. The device went off and they were killed. Now we recovered some but not enough for all the news agencies to give a rats ass about. Also if Saddam could hide Long Range bobmers in the sand ...(LONG range bombers mind you, not the fighter bomber sort) That only got uncovered enough for a passing patrol to notice a tail wing hanging out of the sand, then who are we to say what else is in the desert. And I know for a fact there is not one unit combing the vaste open ground in this country. SO I cannot say IF he had tons of WMDs, or a little. There sure is a lot of wasteland in this country......bogo24dk wrote:
The UN sanction where imposed on Iraq because the US had evidently proof that Saddam had wdm and was about to build a Nuclear bomb. Which we all know now that is false. I always asked myself one quite obvious question. If he had those Wdm's then why didn't he use it on the Americans. Obviously he didn't hesitate to use it on the Kurds. Was it maybe cause the US government knew very well that he didn't have any and he didn't pose a threat. And even he did buy tanks and ak-47 he wouldn't had invaded Kuwait. Saddam is a typical dictator, he cares more about his behind then anything else. Lot of good was done putting a embargo on false info and expecting for a dictator to care about his people. You have to be born yesterday to not understand that this embargo was like signing a death warrant for 1 mill people.CannonFodder11b wrote:
I think you are referring to the Oil for Food program which Saddam wasted on things like golden toilets, T72 Tanks, French NVGs, Armored Limos, and all the other wasted money like the MOAB mosque that he had built after Desert Storm to celebrate his Victory over the Allied Nations.
Yessir! that was UN sanctioned Death......
The whole reason for Oil for Food was to try and keep saddam from rebuilding his military to try and take out Kuwait or someone else again, not to starve the masses.
And if he wasn't hiding something why did he not allow UN weapons inspectors in to his plants the first oh I dunno 30 times they showed up to inspect various areas.... why did he clean up before he allowed then to inspect. I dunno seems kinda odd....
But then again people like you must think Saddam was a saint.
(and the Oil for Food thing started after Desert Storm.... around the same time there was a no fly zone established around Iraq. It was imposed to keep him from attacking another country again, and also to keep Iran from attacking Iraq.... remember Iran/Iraq war? Yeah they still aint forgiven Saddam and were more then happy to see him get his ass kicked twice)
And about the Iran/Iraq war, maybe you should ask them who they blame more for this war. I think you know very clear what the anwser is.
Depends what kind of WMDs. Biological weapons and many chemical weapons cannot survive the low temperatures and stresses of high altitutde flight, via a rocket.bogo24dk wrote:
Who said that you need a bomber to fire WDM's off. You can fire the successfully with a scud missiles, which Saddam had plenty of those. In fact in the first gulf war he fired all the way in Israel. He had the means to fire WDM's off. There is no doubt about that. But did he had any left ?.......It's clear that he had none left, or he would have used it.CannonFodder11b wrote:
actually in 2003 some chemical weapons were found, accidently by insurgents as they were setting up a 155mm arty shell for an IED. The device went off and they were killed. Now we recovered some but not enough for all the news agencies to give a rats ass about. Also if Saddam could hide Long Range bobmers in the sand ...(LONG range bombers mind you, not the fighter bomber sort) That only got uncovered enough for a passing patrol to notice a tail wing hanging out of the sand, then who are we to say what else is in the desert. And I know for a fact there is not one unit combing the vaste open ground in this country. SO I cannot say IF he had tons of WMDs, or a little. There sure is a lot of wasteland in this country......bogo24dk wrote:
The UN sanction where imposed on Iraq because the US had evidently proof that Saddam had wdm and was about to build a Nuclear bomb. Which we all know now that is false. I always asked myself one quite obvious question. If he had those Wdm's then why didn't he use it on the Americans. Obviously he didn't hesitate to use it on the Kurds. Was it maybe cause the US government knew very well that he didn't have any and he didn't pose a threat. And even he did buy tanks and ak-47 he wouldn't had invaded Kuwait. Saddam is a typical dictator, he cares more about his behind then anything else. Lot of good was done putting a embargo on false info and expecting for a dictator to care about his people. You have to be born yesterday to not understand that this embargo was like signing a death warrant for 1 mill people.
And if he wasn't hiding something why did he not allow UN weapons inspectors in to his plants the first oh I dunno 30 times they showed up to inspect various areas.... why did he clean up before he allowed then to inspect. I dunno seems kinda odd....
But then again people like you must think Saddam was a saint.
(and the Oil for Food thing started after Desert Storm.... around the same time there was a no fly zone established around Iraq. It was imposed to keep him from attacking another country again, and also to keep Iran from attacking Iraq.... remember Iran/Iraq war? Yeah they still aint forgiven Saddam and were more then happy to see him get his ass kicked twice)
And about the Iran/Iraq war, maybe you should ask them who they blame more for this war. I think you know very clear what the anwser is.
Good point... *shrugs* The only good that came out of this is that we spent so much money that we can't afford to invade anyone else right now, and so the world is safe for a little while.CameronPoe wrote:
What gets me is why Americans didn't see through all the bullshit while the Iraq melodrama was still being played out in the UN. Pure theatrical build-up to a war they wanted to fight for reasons known only to the PNAC.
I like pie.
Its sad that the insurgents/foriegn fighters are killing so many Iraqis. Why would they kill their own kind?
Playing Devil's Advocate here:
Better 3000 Iraqi deaths than 3000 American deaths.
Better 3000 Iraqi deaths than 3000 American deaths.
We kill them too.Harmor wrote:
Its sad that the insurgents/foriegn fighters are killing so many Iraqis. Why would they kill their own kind?
Own kind? We're all human beings...
insurgents/foreign fighters make up less than 1% of the murders. It is Iraqi killing Iraqi. The US administration and media want you to think its Foreign fighters so its outside influences that are fucking up Iraqi, not the presence of an occupying force. So they keep this little fact quite. The media is full of Al qaeda this Syria and Iran that........ pure smoke screen and gives them credence to fuck a few other countries up in the future. They should split Iraqi into its original 3 countries IMO.Harmor wrote:
Its sad that the insurgents/foriegn fighters are killing so many Iraqis. Why would they kill their own kind?