In other words, give palestine some land back, stop picking on them, and be reasonable folks both ways.Ikarti wrote:
It's not something that could happen overnight. Being treated humanely would have to start. Hamas would need to have at the very least a ceasefire, Israel would need to stop running around in Palestinian lands. The US would need to provide a significant amount of aid to Palestine (take it from the military aid to Isreal) to help rebuild and get a decent infrastructure in place. Al-Quds/Jerusalem should be put under control of a neutral 3rd party (Switzerland or a new body comprised of atheists, since Israel thinks the UN hates them.) Create some feasible connection between Gaza and the West Bank. Find some way where they don't have to like each other, or really talk to each other, but where they can live next to each other without wanting to kill each other.oug wrote:
Dude, I know where you stand, and we agree.So how can it be expected of them? I know I wouldn't let it go... (I too have similar experiences btw...)Ikarti wrote:
You don't let it go when someone royally fucks with you.
Exactly.
Okay, who goes first.
I think we should appoint a official bf2s.com envoy, say majorspittle to talk reason and common sense to these people.
Okay, who goes first.
I think we should appoint a official bf2s.com envoy, say majorspittle to talk reason and common sense to these people.
LOL, send Horseman too.ATG wrote:
Exactly.
Okay, who goes first.
I think we should appoint a official bf2s.com envoy, say majorspittle to talk reason and common sense to these people.
Because of this analogy:
The 9/11 attack on USA, killing almost 3000 people and destroying the landmark WTC, is to American Citizens what the creation of the state of Israel, killing 1000s and dispossessing 1000s of their homes and farms and the third holiest shrine in Islam, is to Palestinian Citizens. Are you ready to forgive for 9/11? Make amends with Osama? I know I wouldn't. I wouldn't rest until justice was served.
The continued degradation of Palestinians as some kind of untermensch doesn't help either (not to mention stealing what little land they have left).
The 9/11 attack on USA, killing almost 3000 people and destroying the landmark WTC, is to American Citizens what the creation of the state of Israel, killing 1000s and dispossessing 1000s of their homes and farms and the third holiest shrine in Islam, is to Palestinian Citizens. Are you ready to forgive for 9/11? Make amends with Osama? I know I wouldn't. I wouldn't rest until justice was served.
The continued degradation of Palestinians as some kind of untermensch doesn't help either (not to mention stealing what little land they have left).
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-10-24 02:50:05)
That's the point.Turquoise wrote:
But if they resort to suicide, they're as good as dead.
Why? Can you understand why they do it? If you did I doubt you'd feel that way.Turquoise wrote:
This is why I feel very little sympathy for them. I can sympathize with a Western oppressive power far easier than an extremist non-Western culture that resorts to suicide.
No comment.Turquoise wrote:
Vietnam was a mess that would've required America to just take the Pol Pot approach and kill everything that moves, in order to win. There are times when I wish we had done that.
ƒ³
A vote does not equal a say in the running of the country, its easy to say they have a vote when they are in the minority. There is no power sharing government and never will be in Israel.ATG wrote:
Last I check, ANY Israeli citizen, regardless of Muslim or not, has an equal vote.
Last edited by JahManRed (2006-10-24 04:30:32)
Because Israel illegally occupies part of their country taking the fertile land and leaving them with desert.jonsimon wrote:
So, try your hand at reasoning why Palestine can't live in peace with Israel.
Because Israel illegally holds thousands of Innocent women, men and children in her dungeons without trial, representation or hope.
Because Israel illegally bombs civilian areas indiscriminately.
Because Israel illegally restricts the movements of millions of Palestinians trying to live their lives.
Because Israel illegally hold nukes which it uses to suppress a whole region of the planet.
Because Israel illegally destroys the civilian infrastructure of an entire nation, justified over the actions of a few
I could go on................
Because of these things ^^^^^^^^^^^ and because the UN and US let Israel do them.
Especially when you have a half crazed so called leader of a country calling for the destruction of Israel Every week in his address to his people, AND sending Hammas arms, you'll never get the peace everyone desires.ATG wrote:
Because they have outside influences who keep reminding them why they should be pissed, funneling weapons and explosives and fomenting unrest.
The Muslim/Pallestinian/Arab living inside Israel generally enjoys a higher standard of living and more rights than those living elsewhere.
The UN has no power to do anything, except for the Security Council on which the US holds a veto.sergeriver wrote:
UN and US let Israel do them.
One word: Religeon.
The actions of the few? last i heard the few run the country. They shoot rockets at anything. Blow up Anything. They dont even try to minimize casualties they just want death. BOTH sides are handeling it wrong, But one thing is for sure, Peace talks would work, but palistine wont goto the table. So if your not willing to try, then your not wanting peace in the first place. War is a way of life with them and they are not truely happy unless they have a cause.JahManRed wrote:
Because Israel illegally occupies part of their country taking the fertile land and leaving them with desert.jonsimon wrote:
So, try your hand at reasoning why Palestine can't live in peace with Israel.
Because Israel illegally holds thousands of Innocent women, men and children in her dungeons without trial, representation or hope.
Because Israel illegally bombs civilian areas indiscriminately.
Because Israel illegally restricts the movements of millions of Palestinians trying to live their lives.
Because Israel illegally hold nukes which it uses to suppress a whole region of the planet.
Because Israel illegally destroys the civilian infrastructure of an entire nation, justified over the actions of a few
I could go on................
And Israel wouldn't go to the table when the moderates were in power in the poccupied territories and were screaming at them to talk to them. It doesn't serve Israel's interests to talk peace - they want the west bank. The whole thing is a circular argument.<[onex]>Headstone wrote:
The actions of the few? last i heard the few run the country. They shoot rockets at anything. Blow up Anything. They dont even try to minimize casualties they just want death. BOTH sides are handeling it wrong, But one thing is for sure, Peace talks would work, but palistine wont goto the table. So if your not willing to try, then your not wanting peace in the first place. War is a way of life with them and they are not truely happy unless they have a cause.JahManRed wrote:
Because Israel illegally occupies part of their country taking the fertile land and leaving them with desert.jonsimon wrote:
So, try your hand at reasoning why Palestine can't live in peace with Israel.
Because Israel illegally holds thousands of Innocent women, men and children in her dungeons without trial, representation or hope.
Because Israel illegally bombs civilian areas indiscriminately.
Because Israel illegally restricts the movements of millions of Palestinians trying to live their lives.
Because Israel illegally hold nukes which it uses to suppress a whole region of the planet.
Because Israel illegally destroys the civilian infrastructure of an entire nation, justified over the actions of a few
I could go on................
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-10-24 06:26:45)
I see two main things at the base of all this madness. These issues have been said here before, and I repeat them only because the topic is hot once again.
Currently 'owned' and governed by Israel.
Why is the holy city sooo important? Beats me!
After the Holocaust it seemed like a good idea to form a new nation for the Jews, and the location of choice was obviously the holy city and is neighboring areas.
Hey presto! Israel is born and the killing may begin.
When will it end? When is there going to be peace?
<=>
When will the Holocaust be forgotten/forgiven?
When will we rid ourselves of these superstitions that we call religions?
Never. Thats when.
Lisik wrote:
Its not coming from Palestine, its coming from Saudi Araby... and its name - Islam!
1. Jerusalem, the holy city of three world religions. Judaism, Christianity and Islam.Macca wrote:
One word: Religeon.
Currently 'owned' and governed by Israel.
Why is the holy city sooo important? Beats me!
2. WWII and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HolocaustCameronPoe wrote:
...it's the reason Arabs have paid the price for German atrocities.
After the Holocaust it seemed like a good idea to form a new nation for the Jews, and the location of choice was obviously the holy city and is neighboring areas.
Hey presto! Israel is born and the killing may begin.
When will it end? When is there going to be peace?
<=>
When will the Holocaust be forgotten/forgiven?
When will we rid ourselves of these superstitions that we call religions?
Never. Thats when.
Last i knew, Isrel moved out didnt they? So whats stopping everyone from sitting down now. Ill tell you. IRAN. Irans Influence is strong and they are running things through Hammas now.CameronPoe wrote:
And Israel wouldn't go to the table when the moderates were in power in the poccupied territories and were screaming at them to talk to them. It doesn't serve Israel's interests to talk peace - they want the west bank. The whole thing is a circular argument.<[onex]>Headstone wrote:
The actions of the few? last i heard the few run the country. They shoot rockets at anything. Blow up Anything. They dont even try to minimize casualties they just want death. BOTH sides are handeling it wrong, But one thing is for sure, Peace talks would work, but palistine wont goto the table. So if your not willing to try, then your not wanting peace in the first place. War is a way of life with them and they are not truely happy unless they have a cause.JahManRed wrote:
Because Israel illegally occupies part of their country taking the fertile land and leaving them with desert.
Because Israel illegally holds thousands of Innocent women, men and children in her dungeons without trial, representation or hope.
Because Israel illegally bombs civilian areas indiscriminately.
Because Israel illegally restricts the movements of millions of Palestinians trying to live their lives.
Because Israel illegally hold nukes which it uses to suppress a whole region of the planet.
Because Israel illegally destroys the civilian infrastructure of an entire nation, justified over the actions of a few
I could go on................
Did you know Hamas was formed by the Israeli's as an anti-Israeli terrorist group to undermine global appeal of the Palestinian cause? Just a fun fact.<[onex]>Headstone wrote:
Last i knew, Isrel moved out didnt they? So whats stopping everyone from sitting down now. Ill tell you. IRAN. Irans Influence is strong and they are running things through Hammas now.CameronPoe wrote:
And Israel wouldn't go to the table when the moderates were in power in the poccupied territories and were screaming at them to talk to them. It doesn't serve Israel's interests to talk peace - they want the west bank. The whole thing is a circular argument.<[onex]>Headstone wrote:
The actions of the few? last i heard the few run the country. They shoot rockets at anything. Blow up Anything. They dont even try to minimize casualties they just want death. BOTH sides are handeling it wrong, But one thing is for sure, Peace talks would work, but palistine wont goto the table. So if your not willing to try, then your not wanting peace in the first place. War is a way of life with them and they are not truely happy unless they have a cause.
I say the government of Israel deserves whatever Hamas can throw at them, don't start what you can't finish.
No actually they get treated like crap and hate it there. Where did get this from...seriously?ATG wrote:
The Muslim/Pallestinian/Arab living inside Israel generally enjoys a higher standard of living and more rights than those living elsewhere.
Yea your right, most other people living there live in separate areas, away from the jewish community. Their shops often get attacked and shit. Just sad.PRiMACORD wrote:
No actually they get treated like crap and hate it there. Where did get this from...seriously?ATG wrote:
The Muslim/Pallestinian/Arab living inside Israel generally enjoys a higher standard of living and more rights than those living elsewhere.
Last edited by mafia996630 (2006-10-24 11:16:55)
I think the people who came up with that partition plan should be shot in the face.
Why not make it simple and give the top half to Israel and the bottom to the Palestinians...or vice versa. Why the fuck did they cut it up 5-6 portions???
(not saying Israel deserves any of that land in the first place)
They moved out of Gaza because staying there would have realistically necessitated annexing it altogether thus threatening the 'jewish majority' in Israel. The West Bank continues to be occupied, settlements there continue to be expanded and a ruddy great wall now effectively annexes large chunks of internationally recognised PALESTINIAN land.<[onex]>Headstone wrote:
Last i knew, Isrel moved out didnt they? So whats stopping everyone from sitting down now. Ill tell you. IRAN. Irans Influence is strong and they are running things through Hammas now.CameronPoe wrote:
And Israel wouldn't go to the table when the moderates were in power in the poccupied territories and were screaming at them to talk to them. It doesn't serve Israel's interests to talk peace - they want the west bank. The whole thing is a circular argument.<[onex]>Headstone wrote:
The actions of the few? last i heard the few run the country. They shoot rockets at anything. Blow up Anything. They dont even try to minimize casualties they just want death. BOTH sides are handeling it wrong, But one thing is for sure, Peace talks would work, but palistine wont goto the table. So if your not willing to try, then your not wanting peace in the first place. War is a way of life with them and they are not truely happy unless they have a cause.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-10-24 11:57:34)
Incorrect. Nominally yes but in practice no. I was sitting on a park bench in Tel Aviv the day I was to fly back to Ireland from Israel and a sallow skinned youth (~16/17yr old) approached me (me being an obvious tourist) and asked me 'What I thought of Israelis?'. I replied reservedly 'Israelis seem fine...yadda, yadda', unsure what side of the fence he was from. He replied 'I HATE THEM'. From what I could gather arabs were largely sidelined and frowned upon in Israel. I got the impression that these supposed holders of equal rights were sneered at, looked down upon and were effectively second class citizens. Nazareth, a predominantly arabic town, was markedly rougher round the edges and bedraggled than say Tiberias, Eilat or Maktesh Ramon. A symptom of strategic government funding perhaps?ATG wrote:
The Muslim/Pallestinian/Arab living inside Israel generally enjoys a higher standard of living and more rights than those living elsewhere.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-10-24 12:06:55)
My thoughts are two fold:
1) It's probably the oldest conflict on the planet citing biblical reference (israel and philistines aka., "david and goliath" story), but most recently from the 1947 occupation Israel made on the land (aka USA made for Israel).
2) Both sides are religious and both adhere to religious laws requiring an eye for an eye..so vengence alone will likely overpower any non-religious or political brokering of peace. Since 2000 when this current escalation started (I saw the anti-Israeli protestors in the streets of San Francisco blocking transit and other things), the greusome pictures that came out of the first real MSM reported warfare made it appear as if each daily fight was in retaliation to the other's aggression, and it's just spiralled out of control spanning various leaders, various cease fires, various "road maps" and other weakly implemented and likewise hopeless settlements. In the end, their lust for vengence and hatred have prevailed..and here we are today.
So my thoughts? It won't end until Israel is gone. Because if somehow, Israel kills every Palestinian (they won't), every arab, persian, and asian neighbor will take their place and continue the slaughter.
1) It's probably the oldest conflict on the planet citing biblical reference (israel and philistines aka., "david and goliath" story), but most recently from the 1947 occupation Israel made on the land (aka USA made for Israel).
2) Both sides are religious and both adhere to religious laws requiring an eye for an eye..so vengence alone will likely overpower any non-religious or political brokering of peace. Since 2000 when this current escalation started (I saw the anti-Israeli protestors in the streets of San Francisco blocking transit and other things), the greusome pictures that came out of the first real MSM reported warfare made it appear as if each daily fight was in retaliation to the other's aggression, and it's just spiralled out of control spanning various leaders, various cease fires, various "road maps" and other weakly implemented and likewise hopeless settlements. In the end, their lust for vengence and hatred have prevailed..and here we are today.
So my thoughts? It won't end until Israel is gone. Because if somehow, Israel kills every Palestinian (they won't), every arab, persian, and asian neighbor will take their place and continue the slaughter.
Ok Smartass Ill rephrase it in One word IRAN. END!jonsimon wrote:
Did you know Hamas was formed by the Israeli's as an anti-Israeli terrorist group to undermine global appeal of the Palestinian cause? Just a fun fact.<[onex]>Headstone wrote:
Last i knew, Isrel moved out didnt they? So whats stopping everyone from sitting down now. Ill tell you. IRAN. Irans Influence is strong and they are running things through Hammas now.CameronPoe wrote:
And Israel wouldn't go to the table when the moderates were in power in the poccupied territories and were screaming at them to talk to them. It doesn't serve Israel's interests to talk peace - they want the west bank. The whole thing is a circular argument.
I say the government of Israel deserves whatever Hamas can throw at them, don't start what you can't finish.
Too bad sickle cell only affects africans. Maybe germ warfare is the way to go here. All I know is someone's GOTS 2 GO.
Sober enough to know what I'm doing, drunk enough to really enjoy doing it