America, democracy or republic?

2006-10-21 21:50:13

#1

CommieChipmunk: Member; +488|6826|Portland, OR, USA

Okay, so I was talking with my dad about the flaws of America the other day and i slipped up and said something about how America isn't really that democratic when you think about it.. he of course responded, "well America isn't a democracy, its a republic." (i'm only 16 so i guess i'll blame it on that...) We preach democracy and imperialistically spread it throughout the world (iraq..) but we aren't technically a democracy. There are two different types of democracy

Direct: The people make the desicions, of course this varies depending on the democracy, sometimes its majority while in other cases everyone must agree.

Indirect: Indirect democracy is a broad term describing a means of governance by the people through elected representatives.

The most common system found in today's democratic states is the representative democracy. The people elect government officials who then make decisions on their behalf. Essentially, a representative democracy is a form of indirect democracy in which representatives are democratically selected, and usually difficult to recall.

A doctrine often known as Edmund Burke's Principle states that representatives should act upon their own conscience in the affairs of a representative democracy. This is contrasted to the expectation that such representatives should consider the views of their electors—an expectation particularly common in states with strong constituency links, or with recall provisions (such as modern British Columbia).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_%28varieties%29

Republic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic

thats what i get in wiki and i'm still a little confused. Arent we technically an indirect democracy? We vote for the rich people that are actually able to run and they make the desicions for us (a plutocracy IMHO).

Baaah its all so confusing. Can anyone clear this up for me?

2006-10-22 03:18:20

#2

MorbidFetus: Member; +76|6808|Ohio

America is a Republic.

2006-10-22 03:42:18

#3

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|6973

MorbidFetus wrote:
America is a Republic.

Yep, did you know there is a communist party in the USA?

https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png

2006-10-22 03:44:54

#4

MorbidFetus: Member; +76|6808|Ohio

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:
Yep, did you know there is a communist party in the USA?

And?

2006-10-22 07:57:34

#5

jonsimon: Member; +224|6752

We're a democratic republic. So, both.

2006-10-22 08:33:00

#6

DesertFox-: The very model of a modern major general; +796|6941|United States of America

jonsimon wrote:
We're a democratic republic. So, both.

Woot for the bicameral legislature. America is the vanilla chocolate twist flavor of governments.

2006-10-22 09:27:37

#7

Masques: Black Panzer Party; +184|6979|Eastern PA

Technically any state that has a non-monarchical form of gov't is a republic (yes even N. Korea), but as we all know theory and practice often do not align perfectly.

2006-10-22 09:37:11

#8

ATG: Banned; +5,233|6786|Global Command

The proper term for America is a representative republic.

We elect people ( lawyers mostly, at our own peril ) to represent us.
True democracy is anarchy.

2006-10-22 09:41:16

#9

Naughty_Om: Im Ron Burgundy?; +355|6890|USA

democratic republic

2006-10-22 10:32:19

#10

Capt. Foley: Member; +155|6844|Allentown, PA, USA

Were a indirect democracy(also known as a republic). Direct democracy does not work unless your country has a small population....very very very small....less then 1,000 people if you want to get anything done. It is just not possible for 300,000,000 million people to go vote on every single little thing.

2006-10-22 10:42:22

#11

kr@cker: Bringin' Sexy Back!; +581|6806|Southeastern USA

yeah it gets real confusing, as much as i hate to reference wiki, if you look at the article on the USA, you will see all sorts of descriptors thrown around, federal republic, representative republic, democratic republic, all sorts of shit

basically you were right though, the most succinct way to explain it to your dad would be:

democracy= mob rule (one of the founding fathers' worst nightmares)

republic= the public democratically chooses (votes for) representatives which they trust to stay informed of and make decisions governmental matters

that is why we have devices like a bicameral house and the electoral college, which balance out the voting powers of heavily populated areas and more rural ones, so a few densely populated metropoli don't start deciding the direction of dozens of states that are more sparsely populated

2006-10-22 11:02:59

#12

Capt. Foley: Member; +155|6844|Allentown, PA, USA

kr@cker wrote:
yeah it gets real confusing, as much as i hate to reference wiki, if you look at the article on the USA, you will see all sorts of descriptors thrown around, federal republic, representative republic, democratic republic, all sorts of shit

basically you were right though, the most succinct way to explain it to your dad would be:

democracy= mob rule (one of the founding fathers' worst nightmares)

republic= the public democratically chooses (votes for) representatives which they trust to stay informed of and make decisions governmental matters

that is why we have devices like a bicameral house and the electoral college, which balance out the voting powers of heavily populated areas and more rural ones, so a few densely populated metropoli don't start deciding the direction of dozens of states that are more sparsely populated

What the Founding Fathers didnt count on was that the elected people would work for themselfs....pretty much all that try to work for the country get destroyed by others. Back then the system was great....but now its just who can kiss the most ass.

2006-10-22 11:57:45

#13

jonsimon: Member; +224|6752

Those who say direct democracy is mob rule are incorrect. The germanic tribes proved democracy quite effective for centuries.

2006-10-22 12:00:02

#14

Turquoise: O Canada; +1,596|6662|North Carolina

CommieChipmunk wrote:
Republic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic

thats what i get in wiki and i'm still a little confused. Arent we technically an indirect democracy? We vote for the rich people that are actually able to run and they make the desicions for us (a plutocracy IMHO).

Baaah its all so confusing. Can anyone clear this up for me?

In effect, yes, America is a plutocracy. A lot of the world is plutocratic.

2006-10-22 12:10:41

#15

Phrozenbot: Member; +632|6872|do not disturb

Yea, grassroots democracy is only good in small populations. You know, in some tiny town where everyone who can voice their opinion in the town hall. That's something that was common in the early days... but how can you get everyone's opinion with today's population? It just doesn't work. The democracy we run today is on a macromanagment scale, not micro. Just hope the person you vote in isn't so easily corrupted by corporations and has more principle than partisanship.

2006-10-22 12:47:45

#16

Stubbee: Religions Hate Facts, Questions and Doubts; +223|7000|Reality

America is not a complete democracy.
You can still elect a president who lost the popular vote, eg: Bush. This is disappointing, not becuase it is Bush, but because it is slightly hypocritical.

Parlementary(SP?) democracies are even worse. A person can be 'elected' by his party if the leader resigns or dies. If this is the party in power, he/she becomes the leader of the country without an election. Wonderful system. <sarcasm>

The US economy is a giant Ponzi scheme. And 'to big to fail' is code speak for 'niahnahniahniahnah 99 percenters'

2006-10-22 13:05:34

#17

Phrozenbot: Member; +632|6872|do not disturb

And they can remove you if they feel you are not in the party's best interest, I think.

2006-10-22 21:59:07

#18

AlbertWesker[RE]: Not Human Anymore; +144|6901|Seattle, WA

Stubbee wrote:
America is not a complete democracy.
You can still elect a president who lost the popular vote, eg: Bush. This is disappointing, not becuase it is Bush, but because it is slightly hypocritical.

Parlementary(SP?) democracies are even worse. A person can be 'elected' by his party if the leader resigns or dies. If this is the party in power, he/she becomes the leader of the country without an election. Wonderful system. <sarcasm>

Yet he came back in 04, to dominate the popular vote....but like you said thats not really the point.

Anyways, this has already been discussed AT LENGTH. TO the point of sickness. Its a republic, end of story. Do a google search for more info.

2006-10-23 13:07:13

#19

PuckMercury: 6 x 9 = 42; +298|6784|Portland, OR USA

ATG wrote:
The proper term for America is a representative republic.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God with liberty and justice for all."

2006-10-23 14:18:42

#20

IRONCHEF: Member; +385|6747|Northern California

Capt. Foley wrote:
Were a indirect democracy(also known as a republic). Direct democracy does not work unless your country has a small population....very very very small....less then 1,000 people if you want to get anything done. It is just not possible for 300,000,000 million people to go vote on every single little thing.

Precisely this. I would also remind everyone of our pledge of allegiance which makes mention of us allying ourselves to a flag..."and to the republic, for which it stands.." not sure who penned that pledge or how much it jives with our nation's laws and considerations, but I'm sure it's viable enough.

2006-10-23 14:41:08

#21

Empty Republic: Member; +0|6687|South Carolina, USA

The United States is a Constitutional Republic with a Representative Democratic means of governing. In short, it means that the government is democratically elected, responsible to the electorate (people), and the government is restrained by the limits set in the constitution. The last part is the most important, because a free society can vote their rights away if there were no constitution to layout what rights the population has that cannot be infringed upon.

I'm annoyed by these conversations of "Is America a Republic or a Democracy?" because any high school civics lesson should make this clear. America is both. The UK is a Constitutional Monarchy, which is a misnomer since the nation does not have a "real" constitution in the same sense that the United States, France, and other countries do. The UK is a democracy but not a republic. North Korea is a republic but not a democracy. Saudi Arabia is a neither a republic nor a democracy.

To take this one step further the United States is a federal republic where governing power is divided between the central government and the provinces (states). This is apposed to a unitary government where the central government has the majority of power (France), or a confederation where the provinces (states) maintain the majority of power and the central government is weak (U.A.E).

Class dismissed!

2006-10-23 14:44:03

#22

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6812

I thought it was an oligarchy!!?? When was the last time someone poor was elected president?

2006-10-23 16:57:11

#23

CommieChipmunk: Member; +488|6826|Portland, OR, USA

CameronPoe wrote:
I thought it was an oligarchy!!?? When was the last time someone poor was elected president?

someday....

but thanks for the responses

2006-10-23 17:02:54

#24

jonsimon: Member; +224|6752

CameronPoe wrote:
I thought it was an oligarchy!!?? When was the last time someone poor was elected president?

Constitutional Decomcratic oligarchical republic.

And the remix: Representative plutocratic federal commonwealth.

Edit: Forgot constitutional. And federal.

Last edited by jonsimon (2006-10-23 17:04:49)

2006-10-24 00:40:14

#25

Reciprocity: Member; +721|6837|the dank(super) side of Oregon

as others ahve said, the US is a democratic republic, in theory. We have always been an oligarchy, specifically since land ownership was a requirement to vote in the first federal election. If some had their way we'd be a theocratic plutocratic oligarchal dictatorial federation of states.

BF2S Forums America, democracy or republic?

MorbidFetus wrote:

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

kr@cker wrote:

CommieChipmunk wrote:

Stubbee wrote:

ATG wrote:

Capt. Foley wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

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