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M.O.A.B wrote:

I hear Kilmer's reload is used in SF training courses

• Eject empty mag(azine) with right pointer finger pushing mag eject button.
• sweep left hand back and down, grab and pull old magazine out, drop (throw) old mag from left hand.
• grab new mag with left hand - palm on bottom of mag, fingers and thumb wrapped around base of mag.
• lift up rifle slightly in right hand (still on grip)to  put mag well in better position for new mag load.
• (optionally, if it's personally quicker, rotate rifle 1/4 turn clockwise for a better angle on the mag well)
• insert new mag, pushing up with palm of hand until it 'clicks' in place.
• follow through with left hand sliding up the side of the rifle, hitting the bolt release with your palm.

Last edited by rdx-fx (2012-03-17 08:45:06)

rdx-fx wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

I hear Kilmer's reload is used in SF training courses

After he ran out, during the street fight?
Looked like a fumbled magazine change.
"oh.. click.. I'm out?  stand there and look at the rifle dumbfounded, duck behind cover, fumble for a mag, put new mag in, hit bolt release, look at rifle again.. then think about shooting some more"
Pretty quick for an actor or stuntman, though.

Faster version;

• Eject empty mag(azine) with right pointer finger pushing mag eject button.
• sweep left hand back and down, grab and pull old magazine out, drop (throw) old mag from left hand.
• grab new mag with left hand - palm on bottom of mag, fingers and thumb wrapped around base of mag.
• lift up rifle slightly in right hand (still on grip)to  put mag well in better position for new mag load.
• (optionally, if it's personally quicker, rotate rifle 1/4 turn clockwise for a better angle on the mag well)
• insert new mag, pushing up with palm of hand until it 'clicks' in place.
• follow through with left hand sliding up the side of the rifle, hitting the bolt release with your palm.

Ta da!  fresh magazine, ready to go, and your eyes never left your sights.

The reason for pulling the magazine out with the left hand?
One, in case it hung up in the mag well (dirt, sand, Murphy)
Two, if you're in a hurry, the 1/4 second it takes to drop clear is too damn slow.
Mostly reason one.  Positive control is better.

Reason for the gross motor movements (palm on mag, lift/rotate rifle) - don't count on fine motor movements or acute manual dexterity when someone's shooting at you.

Reason for 1/4 turn rotation of rifle?
Hand-EYE coordination.  If you can glance at the mag well, you won't hit the magazine (as much) on the edge of the mag well when inserting the fresh mag.
Watch the videos below, they tend to bounce the magazine off the edge of the mag well before 'finding the hole'.
A sideways motion seems easier to coordinate than a blind vertical motion too
Spoiler (highlight to read):
A good verbal reminder, "Can't find the hole again? I bet your girlfriend has a real sore asshole from you missing the right hole too"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl … XLBgh8Knxw

[Skip to 1:30 on this second video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl … wSa8#t=89s

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2012-03-17 19:54:04)

Dilbert_X wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

I hear Kilmer's reload is used in SF training courses

After he ran out, during the street fight?
Looked like a fumbled magazine change.
"oh.. click.. I'm out?  stand there and look at the rifle dumbfounded, duck behind cover, fumble for a mag, put new mag in, hit bolt release, look at rifle again.. then think about shooting some more"
Pretty quick for an actor or stuntman, though.

Faster version;

• Eject empty mag(azine) with right pointer finger pushing mag eject button.
• sweep left hand back and down, grab and pull old magazine out, drop (throw) old mag from left hand.
• grab new mag with left hand - palm on bottom of mag, fingers and thumb wrapped around base of mag.
• lift up rifle slightly in right hand (still on grip)to  put mag well in better position for new mag load.
• (optionally, if it's personally quicker, rotate rifle 1/4 turn clockwise for a better angle on the mag well)
• insert new mag, pushing up with palm of hand until it 'clicks' in place.
• follow through with left hand sliding up the side of the rifle, hitting the bolt release with your palm.

Ta da!  fresh magazine, ready to go, and your eyes never left your sights.

The reason for pulling the magazine out with the left hand?
One, in case it hung up in the mag well (dirt, sand, Murphy)
Two, if you're in a hurry, the 1/4 second it takes to drop clear is too damn slow.
Mostly reason one.  Positive control is better.

Reason for the gross motor movements (palm on mag, lift/rotate rifle) - don't count on fine motor movements or acute manual dexterity when someone's shooting at you.

Reason for 1/4 turn rotation of rifle?
Hand-EYE coordination.  If you can glance at the mag well, you won't hit the magazine (as much) on the edge of the mag well when inserting the fresh mag.
Watch the videos below, they tend to bounce the magazine off the edge of the mag well before 'finding the hole'.
A sideways motion seems easier to coordinate than a blind vertical motion too
Spoiler (highlight to read):
A good verbal reminder, "Can't find the hole again? I bet your girlfriend has a real sore asshole from you missing the right hole too"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl … XLBgh8Knxw

[Skip to 1:30 on this second video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl … wSa8#t=89s

If you've blown off 30 rounds and not hit your target I don't see how a supa-awsm speed reload is going to help much..
Putting hundreds of rounds downrange is the job of the guy with the LMG I would have thought.

Dilbert_X wrote:

I was speaking generally, not really about one movie scene - which is fiction anyway.

But my point still stands, if you've blown off 30 rounds from a rifle and are still struggling shaving a few fractions of a second off your reload is probably not where you should be focusing your efforts.

-Sh1fty- wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

After he ran out, during the street fight?
Looked like a fumbled magazine change.
"oh.. click.. I'm out?  stand there and look at the rifle dumbfounded, duck behind cover, fumble for a mag, put new mag in, hit bolt release, look at rifle again.. then think about shooting some more"
Pretty quick for an actor or stuntman, though.

Faster version;

• Eject empty mag(azine) with right pointer finger pushing mag eject button.
• sweep left hand back and down, grab and pull old magazine out, drop (throw) old mag from left hand.
• grab new mag with left hand - palm on bottom of mag, fingers and thumb wrapped around base of mag.
• lift up rifle slightly in right hand (still on grip)to  put mag well in better position for new mag load.
• (optionally, if it's personally quicker, rotate rifle 1/4 turn clockwise for a better angle on the mag well)
• insert new mag, pushing up with palm of hand until it 'clicks' in place.
• follow through with left hand sliding up the side of the rifle, hitting the bolt release with your palm.

Ta da!  fresh magazine, ready to go, and your eyes never left your sights.

The reason for pulling the magazine out with the left hand?
One, in case it hung up in the mag well (dirt, sand, Murphy)
Two, if you're in a hurry, the 1/4 second it takes to drop clear is too damn slow.
Mostly reason one.  Positive control is better.

Reason for the gross motor movements (palm on mag, lift/rotate rifle) - don't count on fine motor movements or acute manual dexterity when someone's shooting at you.

Reason for 1/4 turn rotation of rifle?
Hand-EYE coordination.  If you can glance at the mag well, you won't hit the magazine (as much) on the edge of the mag well when inserting the fresh mag.
Watch the videos below, they tend to bounce the magazine off the edge of the mag well before 'finding the hole'.
A sideways motion seems easier to coordinate than a blind vertical motion too
Spoiler (highlight to read):
A good verbal reminder, "Can't find the hole again? I bet your girlfriend has a real sore asshole from you missing the right hole too"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl … XLBgh8Knxw

[Skip to 1:30 on this second video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl … wSa8#t=89s

If you've blown off 30 rounds and not hit your target I don't see how a supa-awsm speed reload is going to help much..
Putting hundreds of rounds downrange is the job of the guy with the LMG I would have thought.

None of them had LMGs though in that movie scene. How many men were there I couldn't quite tell, it looked like 4 robbers. I would have had 2 be suppressors and carry more ammo than the bank bags and two mobile guys with the bags. How does that sound to you military experts? They seem to be spraying way too much at police men who can't shoot worth a damn and have pistols.

M.O.A.B wrote:

A few SAS guys had a hand in setting up that scene, and how they would react to an ambush. I've heard that putting down as many rounds as possible and rushing forward is the best way to counter it. Not entirely sure on that though.

Last edited by rdx-fx (2012-03-18 09:40:15)

Trotskygrad wrote:

wouldn't a 5.56 penetrate when it hit the back of that ford? The hit was probably digitally added in, but still, looks weird. you see 2 shots hit where they probably would have gone through and hit de Niro in the ass.

• Stillness: Doesn't matter how shitty of a day I've had, when I'm shooting, everything else goes away.  There is me, concentrating on putting a small piece of lead onto a very small, very exact, very distant target.
• Intersection of art and science: Shooting is part training, part feel, part science. Very much a whole-brain activity, half Art & half Science.  Sciences of ballistics, physics, and advanced math + years of training & practice + a feel for weather, wind, self, and equipment.
• Honesty: Targets don't lie. If you keep your Ego in check, pay attention to detail, and give honest assessments of your abilities & surroundings, you will be rewarded.  Rewarded in improved shooting abilities in the long term, accurate hits in the present, and (most importantly) an improved ability in your everyday life to recognize and set aside Ego-driven bullshit to get to the essentials of a problem.