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Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|5699|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

No, what is a cop out and simplistic is your shallow answer that, you will, like a true liberal, blame someone else for being poor. In this case, family.
I'm all for promoting accountability, but a realistic assessment of life involves admitting that not everything is within your control.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|5945|USA

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

No, what is a cop out and simplistic is your shallow answer that, you will, like a true liberal, blame someone else for being poor. In this case, family.
I'm all for promoting accountability, but a realistic assessment of life involves admitting that not everything is within your control.
Going to school and getting educated to make something of yourself in America, ESPECIALLY with all of the assistance programs in place, is well within your control. The only variable left to chance is the individuals willingness to do it.

Last edited by lowing (2006-10-23 17:39:33)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|5699|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

No, what is a cop out and simplistic is your shallow answer that, you will, like a true liberal, blame someone else for being poor. In this case, family.
I'm all for promoting accountability, but a realistic assessment of life involves admitting that not everything is within your control.
Going to school and getting educated to make something of yourself in America, ESPECIALLY with all of the assistance programs in place, is well within your control. The only varible left to chance is the individuals willingness to do it.
I agree, but bad shit can still happen.  You could end up permanently bedridden by a car accident.  You could be diagnosed with cancer.  Anything's possible, so not everyone who ends up living off of the system is just lazy...
lowing
Banned
+1,662|5945|USA

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


I'm all for promoting accountability, but a realistic assessment of life involves admitting that not everything is within your control.
Going to school and getting educated to make something of yourself in America, ESPECIALLY with all of the assistance programs in place, is well within your control. The only varible left to chance is the individuals willingness to do it.
I agree, but bad shit can still happen.  You could end up permanently bedridden by a car accident.  You could be diagnosed with cancer.  Anything's possible, so not everyone who ends up living off of the system is just lazy...
Ahhhhhhhhh, but now we have come full circle to the "caring for those that can't care for themselves" part, haven't we??
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|5699|North Carolina
What was your stance on that?  I can't remember....
lowing
Banned
+1,662|5945|USA

Turquoise wrote:

What was your stance on that?  I can't remember....
I have ALWAYS supported social programs that assist people that are unable to take care of themselves, children, disabled, unemployment. I do not support those programs assisting anyone that does not have a reason other than being a unambitious, unmotivated, and lazy.

I asked for a single reason why ANYONE could be able bodied, sound mind, and yet needs to spend their lives on govt. assistance. As of yet, no one could produce one, although I have been told there were "millions" of reasons.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|5699|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

What was your stance on that?  I can't remember....
I have ALWAYS supported social programs that assist people that are unable to take care of themselves, children, disabled, unemployment. I do not support those programs assisting anyone that does not have a reason other than being a unambitious, unmotivated, and lazy.

I asked for a single reason why ANYONE could be able bodied, sound mind, and yet needs to spend their lives on govt. assistance. As of yet, no one could produce one, although I have been told there were "millions" of reasons.
Well, I guess I agree with you then.  There still remains the issue of determining who's lazy and who's not.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|5945|USA

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

What was your stance on that?  I can't remember....
I have ALWAYS supported social programs that assist people that are unable to take care of themselves, children, disabled, unemployment. I do not support those programs assisting anyone that does not have a reason other than being a unambitious, unmotivated, and lazy.

I asked for a single reason why ANYONE could be able bodied, sound mind, and yet needs to spend their lives on govt. assistance. As of yet, no one could produce one, although I have been told there were "millions" of reasons.
Well, I guess I agree with you then.  There still remains the issue of determining who's lazy and who's not.
easy, if you need govt. assistance, you need to provide medical proof that you can't work. Also a look at past tax returns should tell a revealing tale.
jonsimon
Member
+224|5789

lowing wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:


Once again, nope, I am appluding anyone that will better themselves given the opportunity.
But you just said the WHOLE of Ireland is well off not because of their social programs, but because they all work to improve themselves, unlike the US. Sounds like Irish superiority.
On an individual basis, taken 1 for 1, I will agree with that. America is FULL of lazy bastards that want a free ride. We are full of spoiled,arrogant, assholes that think they are owed something by everyone. There plenty of things Americans are guilty of that I am certainly not proud of.

Now, having said that, please note the distinction in my comments from Americans, and America.
And that stereotype is found in the middle class. The people that wouldn't benefit from social welfare. Being poor is perhaps the best indicator of being unable to make money.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|5945|USA

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:

jonsimon wrote:


But you just said the WHOLE of Ireland is well off not because of their social programs, but because they all work to improve themselves, unlike the US. Sounds like Irish superiority.
On an individual basis, taken 1 for 1, I will agree with that. America is FULL of lazy bastards that want a free ride. We are full of spoiled,arrogant, assholes that think they are owed something by everyone. There plenty of things Americans are guilty of that I am certainly not proud of.

Now, having said that, please note the distinction in my comments from Americans, and America.
And that stereotype is found in the middle class. The people that wouldn't benefit from social welfare. Being poor is perhaps the best indicator of being unable to make money.
I just can't get you to say that people SHOULD be responsibile for their own actions can I?? LOL
jonsimon
Member
+224|5789

lowing wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:

On an individual basis, taken 1 for 1, I will agree with that. America is FULL of lazy bastards that want a free ride. We are full of spoiled,arrogant, assholes that think they are owed something by everyone. There plenty of things Americans are guilty of that I am certainly not proud of.

Now, having said that, please note the distinction in my comments from Americans, and America.
And that stereotype is found in the middle class. The people that wouldn't benefit from social welfare. Being poor is perhaps the best indicator of being unable to make money.
I just can't get you to say that people SHOULD be responsibile for their own actions can I?? LOL
When have I ever said they shouldn't? The question is isn't should people be responsible for their actions, but are their actions always responsible for their position in life. In other words, are they responsible for others actions?

The simple answer is no. Meaning, there are people who get screwed, and the nation is better off if we help them.

Last edited by jonsimon (2006-10-24 10:22:21)

SFCCDailey
Banned
+106|6009|USA
Her actions are an act of Treason and pose a direct danger to the security of the United Stated. The bitch should be hung. PERIOD!!!  A public hanging to show these ass-hats that anyone who supports terrorists in any way will be harshly punished. I hope that the breast cancer eats that bitch up and she dies a painful and slow death.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|5945|USA

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:

jonsimon wrote:


And that stereotype is found in the middle class. The people that wouldn't benefit from social welfare. Being poor is perhaps the best indicator of being unable to make money.
I just can't get you to say that people SHOULD be responsibile for their own actions can I?? LOL
When have I ever said they shouldn't? The question is isn't should people be responsible for their actions, but are their actions always responsible for their position in life. In other words, are they responsible for others actions?

The simple answer is no. Meaning, there are people who get screwed, and the nation is better off if we help them.
I have asked several times to show me a scenario, a realistic scenario, that would excuse an able bodied person from being poor and needing govt. assistance their whole life. You couldn't do it. Even after you told me their were , "MILLIONS" of reasons why. THe best you came up with was a sick family member, and I already debunked that BS several posts ago.
jonsimon
Member
+224|5789

lowing wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:


I just can't get you to say that people SHOULD be responsibile for their own actions can I?? LOL
When have I ever said they shouldn't? The question is isn't should people be responsible for their actions, but are their actions always responsible for their position in life. In other words, are they responsible for others actions?

The simple answer is no. Meaning, there are people who get screwed, and the nation is better off if we help them.
I have asked several times to show me a scenario, a realistic scenario, that would excuse an able bodied person from being poor and needing govt. assistance their whole life. You couldn't do it. Even after you told me their were , "MILLIONS" of reasons why. THe best you came up with was a sick family member, and I already debunked that BS several posts ago.
I did do it, but you refuse to acknowledge it.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|5945|USA

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

When have I ever said they shouldn't? The question is isn't should people be responsible for their actions, but are their actions always responsible for their position in life. In other words, are they responsible for others actions?

The simple answer is no. Meaning, there are people who get screwed, and the nation is better off if we help them.
I have asked several times to show me a scenario, a realistic scenario, that would excuse an able bodied person from being poor and needing govt. assistance their whole life. You couldn't do it. Even after you told me their were , "MILLIONS" of reasons why. THe best you came up with was a sick family member, and I already debunked that BS several posts ago.
I did do it, but you refuse to acknowledge it.
No Jonsimson, a half a century excuse that "my Mom wouldn't let me go to school" or "My Mom was too sick to go to school will not fly. You gotta do wayyyyyyyyyyyyy better than that. Why not hit me with one of the other 999,999reasons you have?

Last edited by lowing (2006-10-24 15:37:24)

jonsimon
Member
+224|5789

lowing wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:


I have asked several times to show me a scenario, a realistic scenario, that would excuse an able bodied person from being poor and needing govt. assistance their whole life. You couldn't do it. Even after you told me their were , "MILLIONS" of reasons why. THe best you came up with was a sick family member, and I already debunked that BS several posts ago.
I did do it, but you refuse to acknowledge it.
No Jonsimson, a half a century excuse that "my Mom wouldn't let me go to school" or "My Mom was too sick to go to school will not fly. You gotta do wayyyyyyyyyyyyy better than that. Why not hit me with one of the other 999,999reasons you have?
Half a century? Try five years, 16-21. After that, they're in a hole so big they'll never dig themselves out of it.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|5945|USA

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

I did do it, but you refuse to acknowledge it.
No Jonsimson, a half a century excuse that "my Mom wouldn't let me go to school" or "My Mom was too sick to go to school will not fly. You gotta do wayyyyyyyyyyyyy better than that. Why not hit me with one of the other 999,999reasons you have?
Half a century? Try five years, 16-21. After that, they're in a hole so big they'll never dig themselves out of it.
Ahhhhh so you maintain that at 21, someone has no chance at a descent life if they applied themself huh????....At 21, all hope is lost????..........I will give you a chance to retract that before I rip it a new ass, jonsimon.

Last edited by lowing (2006-10-24 18:08:28)

deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|5787|Connecticut

Masques wrote:

deeznutz1245 wrote:

You did insult me. As well as everyone else who works hard for what they have. I dont tolerate excuses for anything, and it irritates me when people who give them have honest employed citizens such as yourself sticking up for them.
How is it an insult? I'm saying the US has systemic problems and that option highlights that fact. Unless you = the US socio-economic system, you don't have anything to be pissed about.

Remember laddie, criticism |= attack. Good for you for making it dispite your disadvantages, but the fact remains that your success, given your situation, was through chance. You weren't born wealthy, you probably didn't have access to the best schools and all the opportunities afforded wealthier children (social networks, etc.). If you would have failed dispite your hard work (illness, maybe you just happened to choose the wrong major in college, wounded in combat, accident) you would have nothing. That situation still happens and can still happen to virtually anyone. Unexpected medical expenses, Enron-like financial collapse, a sour housing market, lay-offs (at 50 years of age) are all happening and with increasing frequency.

I curious why you take such things to be a personal insult and why you insist on attacking those that point out that there are structural flaws in the system. Do you disagree?
I wont disagree with some of your points. I just think that what makes people stronger than others is the ability to adapt and overcome. Certainly events such as lay offs, Enron scandalls etc, are tragic but we as people need to pick up our pieces, change if necessary and move on. The reason I took it so personnal is because you made it personnal. You made the comment that I have never endured hardship. You made it specific to me. I am assuming you had a lack of judgement that moment telling someone youve never met or seen what they have or have not been through. Im just assuming because I have made the same mistake.
Malloy must go
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|5787|Connecticut

Turquoise wrote:

deeznutz1245 wrote:

You did insult me. As well as everyone else who works hard for what they have. I dont tolerate excuses for anything, and it irritates me when people who give them have honest employed citizens such as yourself sticking up for them.
I think Heeznutz would have been a better name for you.  Chill out -- are you the son of Archie Bunker or something?

I can see where you're coming from, but you ought to try debating with less emotion and more logic.  I think we can agree that it would be nice to weed out the lazy people.  It just takes some effort to figure out a proper way to do that....
Easy. Take the titty out of their mouths.
Malloy must go
jonsimon
Member
+224|5789

lowing wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:


No Jonsimson, a half a century excuse that "my Mom wouldn't let me go to school" or "My Mom was too sick to go to school will not fly. You gotta do wayyyyyyyyyyyyy better than that. Why not hit me with one of the other 999,999reasons you have?
Half a century? Try five years, 16-21. After that, they're in a hole so big they'll never dig themselves out of it.
Ahhhhh so you maintain that at 21, someone has no chance at a descent life if they applied themself huh????....At 21, all hope is lost????..........I will give you a chance to retract that before I rip it a new ass, jonsimon.
If they are poor, idebted, and without a highschool education, it sure ain't bright as day.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|5945|USA

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

Half a century? Try five years, 16-21. After that, they're in a hole so big they'll never dig themselves out of it.
Ahhhhh so you maintain that at 21, someone has no chance at a descent life if they applied themself huh????....At 21, all hope is lost????..........I will give you a chance to retract that before I rip it a new ass, jonsimon.
If they are poor, idebted, and without a highschool education, it sure ain't bright as day.
Sooooooooo, you really really wanna stand by your notion that if you haven't done anything by 21 that you are finished in life, and you need to suck the govts. tit forever????? last chance

Last edited by lowing (2006-10-24 19:44:50)

jonsimon
Member
+224|5789

lowing wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:


Ahhhhh so you maintain that at 21, someone has no chance at a descent life if they applied themself huh????....At 21, all hope is lost????..........I will give you a chance to retract that before I rip it a new ass, jonsimon.
If they are poor, idebted, and without a highschool education, it sure ain't bright as day.
Sooooooooo, you really really wanna stand by your notion that if you haven't done anything by 21 that you are finished in life, and you need to suck the govts. tit forever????? last chance
If you are poor, indebted, uneducated, and over the age of 21, it is extremely likely you will be in the lower class for a very long time, and may never enter the middle class. Furthermore, you are all but deprived the oppertunity to enter the upper class.

Go ahead, prove me wrong.
rawls
Banned
+11|6109|California, USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:


Well you would hope their conditions have improved, through hard work, having been afforded every opportunity to succeed through a welfare system that compensates for the poor start in life they receive.
Exactly Cam, I heard it again, "hard work"  and if their situation doesn't improve after 24 frickin years, then who ya wanna blame??


see, my point?? You can't escape the reality of being responsible for ourselves, and if we are a failure due to lack of ambition, trying, or responsibility it is nobodies fault except your own.  YOu yourself as well as Jonsimon can't even give a scenario without throwing in "hard work"......It is a MUST, if you are going to succeed in life. No I do not neen another Bill Gates, I mean simply a comfortable living.

I simply do not feel society should be burdened with some no good lazy piece of shit and their self induced problems....If they don't care enough to help themselves, why do I need to worry about it.

Also, you didn't answer my question...............Would our tax money be better served helping those that strive for a better life? Or wasting it on those that are looking for a free ride??
You have failed to address what should be done when the labour force exceeds the number of jobs.
Unemployment offices.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|5945|USA

jonsimon wrote:

lowing wrote:

jonsimon wrote:


If they are poor, idebted, and without a highschool education, it sure ain't bright as day.
Sooooooooo, you really really wanna stand by your notion that if you haven't done anything by 21 that you are finished in life, and you need to suck the govts. tit forever????? last chance
If you are poor, indebted, uneducated, and over the age of 21, it is extremely likely you will be in the lower class for a very long time, and may never enter the middle class. Furthermore, you are all but deprived the oppertunity to enter the upper class.

Go ahead, prove me wrong.
I won't prove you wrong, in fact, I will agree with you. Now, just who is responsible for a persons debts, or their education,or their finances? You answer that one honestly and you will have proven my point.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|5945|USA

rawls wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:


Exactly Cam, I heard it again, "hard work"  and if their situation doesn't improve after 24 frickin years, then who ya wanna blame??


see, my point?? You can't escape the reality of being responsible for ourselves, and if we are a failure due to lack of ambition, trying, or responsibility it is nobodies fault except your own.  YOu yourself as well as Jonsimon can't even give a scenario without throwing in "hard work"......It is a MUST, if you are going to succeed in life. No I do not neen another Bill Gates, I mean simply a comfortable living.

I simply do not feel society should be burdened with some no good lazy piece of shit and their self induced problems....If they don't care enough to help themselves, why do I need to worry about it.

Also, you didn't answer my question...............Would our tax money be better served helping those that strive for a better life? Or wasting it on those that are looking for a free ride??
You have failed to address what should be done when the labour force exceeds the number of jobs.
Unemployment offices.
Add to it, re-education benifits from the govt. for those that have lost their jobs. All one has to do is sign up for it. I know first hand, it was offered to all of us when we were layed off from my airline.

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