Pages: 1 2

 

2005-11-17 23:00:28
minispud
Member
+4|6755
Gripes about the lack of power in some of the weapons, and the excess of power in others.

My first complaint is with the under-powering of the M16A2, L85A1, M294 SAW and the overpowering of the AK101.  They all use the same bullet, the .223 Remington (5.56x45 NATO), and yet, even with barrel lengths of about the same length (the main judge in the energy, and thus the killing power of a bullet), there is a serious descrepency in the damage differences.  They all have relatively similar ballistics, and the main differences in performance of these weapons is the durability, which I have seen only AA address, with the jams.  Other than that, these weapons should all have about the same damaging power, with the L85A1 having the largest damage number, since its barrel is approx. 10mm longer than that of the M16, which is about 40mm longer than the SAW and AK101.  Call me a fact monkey (or whatever else, I don't care), but these weapons should have about the same damage.

Now, onto the pistols.  All of them shoot a 9mm, and what you're telling me is that that 9mm bullet does 20 damage, but the 5.56mm round (the .223 in the M16, L85, M249 and AK101), whose brass casing is about the same length as the entire 9x19 cartridge, is about half as powerful as this?  Remember, 50 cent was shot 9 times (a damage of ~180) and he's still alive.  Now, personally, I love how the pistol is completly unrealistic, since it's my mini-sniper rifle when I'm AA/AT, but that's a different story.

The G3.  That is the grandfather of the proud (and rightfully so) HK family line, its internals are replicated twice in this game, in the G36 and MP5, and somehow, its .308 bullet is of a different power than the .308 that's used in the M24 (Am sniper), and yet there is that huge power difference.  Now, personally, I believe that the G3 should do more damage (though I got my ass thoroughly swiss-cheesed by it) because after all, that bullet is one big ass bullet.  The PKM which uses a similarly designed calibre, should also recieve a little ball power boost, though the G3 and PKM don't really need it.

Lastly [for now], why does the G3 not get the grenade launcher?  HK made a grenade launcher for the G3 that uses the same 40mm grenades that the M203 on the M16 uses.  http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl09-e.htm 

These are just some things that I personally noted, and all of my information was gathered from Max Popenker, of http://world.guns.ru/main-e.htm  Very interesting reading if you're ever bored, but then again, that's what BF2's for.  Other than those little things (which really don't bother me much), I love the game, just think the developers need to give the guns a little more credit.
2005-11-17 23:10:54
FourStars
Member
+1|6756|Australia
yeah.....! but in the end its still just a game
2005-11-18 03:07:49
BudRell
Member
+2|6854|Home
Now, onto the pistols.  All of them shoot a 9mm, and what you're telling me is that that 9mm bullet does 20 damage, but the 5.56mm round (the .223 in the M16, L85, M249 and AK101), whose brass casing is about the same length as the entire 9x19 cartridge, is about half as powerful as this?
In real world it depends what kind of bullet you use on 9mm. Mostly used bullet (practically the only one) for 5.56mm ammo is FMJ, so it would go thru a man without breaking bones. So those are not the most lethal.
For 9mm there are many choises you can use. For example FMJ, JHP and lead.
If you shoot with JHP, the impact energy stays inside the target. The bullet itself causes enormous pressure to veins and soft tissue because it expands on hit. Brakes bones too ---> if these are "used in game" the HP drop should be 50%..90% of targets energy.
Same thing with lead-bullets, energy stays in but it is much smaller because of the smaller load (the lead will melt with same load than JHP or FMJ), expands too if hit on bone etc. These are most accurate ones of 9mm ---> these would cause 30%-50% drop to targets energy because the smaller load.
The "standard" ammo uses FMJ bullets and this also (usually) lets the impact energy stay inside target. However,  the ammo that uses FMJ, uses the most powerful loads too. That gives more speed to bullet  ---> goes more easily thru target. ---> 20%..50% energy drop.

So if I could choose ammo type for 9mm (to shoot a human..) I would take that JHP type. You don't have to hit bulls eye but on every hit the target stays down (usually permanently). When you shoot plastic bag filled with water from 25m, the bag literally explodes. You can shoot up to 50m but then you are really an expert..

I have 9mm para myself and I have tested all available bullet types (and I load cartridges myself..). I have tested 5.56mm weapons too and those are accurate mid-range guns. Up to 400m if you are a good shooter. If you shoot similar water filled plastic bag with 5.56mm, the bullet goes thru the bag and water will come out from 2 holes...

So...if I were hit by bullet, I would like to be hit with 5.56mm. I could have some chance to live...
2005-11-21 08:41:18
FeloniousMonk
Member
+0|6752

minispud wrote:

even with barrel lengths of about the same length (the main judge in the energy, and thus the killing power of a bullet)
I have to admit that I finally registered here just to comment on this. So very, very, very wrong. Barrel length affects accuracy and can decrease bullet velocity but it is most certainly NOT the main factor in stopping power. The energy from a shot comes from the powder in the bullet combusting, not from some magical property of the barrel that pushes the projectile forward.

The energy of a bullet is primarily a factor of the amount and type of gun powder as well as the size, shape, and mass of the bullet itself. Barrel length is a relatively insignificant part of it.

Last edited by FeloniousMonk (2005-11-21 08:43:14)

2005-11-21 09:20:06
CackNBallz
Member
+45|6760|Toronto, Canada

minispud wrote:

Remember, 50 cent was shot 9 times (a damage of ~180) and he's still alive.
HAHAH!! That is gold.
2005-11-21 09:27:22
ayb
Member
+0|6772|Orlando, FL

FeloniousMonk wrote:

minispud wrote:

even with barrel lengths of about the same length (the main judge in the energy, and thus the killing power of a bullet)
I have to admit that I finally registered here just to comment on this. So very, very, very wrong. Barrel length affects accuracy and can decrease bullet velocity but it is most certainly NOT the main factor in stopping power. The energy from a shot comes from the powder in the bullet combusting, not from some magical property of the barrel that pushes the projectile forward.

The energy of a bullet is primarily a factor of the amount and type of gun powder as well as the size, shape, and mass of the bullet itself. Barrel length is a relatively insignificant part of it.
im not sure about the m249 and the l85a1 but i know for a fact that the ak-101 and the m16 do NOT use the "same bullet". they use the same round size but the powder charge of the ak-101 ammo is considerably more. the weapon (in real life anyway) is heavier yet the recoil is also higher.

CackNBallz wrote:

minispud wrote:

Remember, 50 cent was shot 9 times (a damage of ~180) and he's still alive.
HAHAH!! That is gold.
50's an obvious hacker
2005-11-21 09:38:39
nating75
Member
+0|6794

minispud wrote:

My first complaint is with the under-powering of the M16A2, L85A1, M294 SAW and the overpowering of the AK101.
Under-powering of the M16A2? What are you smoking? The burst setting on that thing is unbelievable. 2 clicks and the guys out for good (body armor or not). Sometimes I play assault when I'm the US just to use this gun. (I don't use the nade launcher attachment)

In my opinion its the best assualt rifle in the game. The DAO gives me no worries when this gun is in my hand (as an assault with body armor of course).

Last edited by nating75 (2005-11-21 09:44:06)

2005-11-21 09:47:18
[1stSSF]=Nuka=
Banned
+23|6767|PDX Metro Area, OR, US, SOL

nating75 wrote:

Under-powering of the M16A2? What are you smoking? The burst setting on that thing is unbelievable. 2 clicks and the guys out for good (body armor or not). Sometimes I play assault when I'm the US just to use this gun. (I don't use the nade launcher attachment)

In my opinion its the best assualt rifle in the game.
While I agree that if you hit all 3 bullets on each click, you'll take out a target, I've rarely seen every bullet land unless the clueless wasn't moving while dying. OTOH, when I've played MEC as a medic or assault, I find that I can pretty much guarantee that you will be dead in a head to head fight against a US medic or assault. The AKs simply have more stopping power and UBAR confrims this...

"The AK-47 is the most powerful assualt rifle, but the least accurate, as it really suffers from multiple shot and recoil penalties. The full automatic firing mode is extremly deadly at close range, but medium and long ranges are best left to the semi-auto and zoomed in mode. The AK-47 makes for a good medium range weapon and OK for long ranges. Remember, when in auto mode, you will empty a clip in 3 seconds, so make your shots count."

It's not the most accurate, but it IS the most powerful of the standard weapons...only the G3 beats it (again, per UBAR).
2005-11-21 09:55:07
atlvolunteer
PKMMMMMMMMMM
+27|6788|Atlanta, GA USA

BudRell wrote:

Now, onto the pistols.  All of them shoot a 9mm, and what you're telling me is that that 9mm bullet does 20 damage, but the 5.56mm round (the .223 in the M16, L85, M249 and AK101), whose brass casing is about the same length as the entire 9x19 cartridge, is about half as powerful as this?
In real world it depends what kind of bullet you use on 9mm. Mostly used bullet (practically the only one) for 5.56mm ammo is FMJ, so it would go thru a man without breaking bones. So those are not the most lethal.
For 9mm there are many choises you can use. For example FMJ, JHP and lead.
If you shoot with JHP, the impact energy stays inside the target. The bullet itself causes enormous pressure to veins and soft tissue because it expands on hit. Brakes bones too ---> if these are "used in game" the HP drop should be 50%..90% of targets energy.
Same thing with lead-bullets, energy stays in but it is much smaller because of the smaller load (the lead will melt with same load than JHP or FMJ), expands too if hit on bone etc. These are most accurate ones of 9mm ---> these would cause 30%-50% drop to targets energy because the smaller load.
The "standard" ammo uses FMJ bullets and this also (usually) lets the impact energy stay inside target. However,  the ammo that uses FMJ, uses the most powerful loads too. That gives more speed to bullet  ---> goes more easily thru target. ---> 20%..50% energy drop.

So if I could choose ammo type for 9mm (to shoot a human..) I would take that JHP type. You don't have to hit bulls eye but on every hit the target stays down (usually permanently). When you shoot plastic bag filled with water from 25m, the bag literally explodes. You can shoot up to 50m but then you are really an expert..

I have 9mm para myself and I have tested all available bullet types (and I load cartridges myself..). I have tested 5.56mm weapons too and those are accurate mid-range guns. Up to 400m if you are a good shooter. If you shoot similar water filled plastic bag with 5.56mm, the bullet goes thru the bag and water will come out from 2 holes...

So...if I were hit by bullet, I would like to be hit with 5.56mm. I could have some chance to live...
Another round type is the "cop killer", which mushrooms into a star pattern, shredding the internal organs of the victim.  These are now illegal in the US (as far as I know).
2005-11-21 10:08:00
Paladus902
The Last Man Standing
+1|6803

ayb wrote:

50's an obvious hacker
LOL! Nice!

In the end it all comes down to balancing the weapons out, and I mean realisticly yes, they arnt very accurate to the true weapons, but its about trying to make things even out on the field.

The comparison between the G3 and the M24 sniper rifle is a good one, but consider that most of the time the sniper will be consealed and will usually get a more accurate and deadly shot.  Now the soldier with the G3 is on the move, and I know that wouldnt make a difference in power, but perhaps thats how EA wants to balance it.  Yes the stats arnt the same, but when you compare the Kit stats to each other, some are obviously more powerful according to the weapons they have.
2005-11-21 10:20:12
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|6753|Salt Lake City

atlvolunteer wrote:

BudRell wrote:

Now, onto the pistols.  All of them shoot a 9mm, and what you're telling me is that that 9mm bullet does 20 damage, but the 5.56mm round (the .223 in the M16, L85, M249 and AK101), whose brass casing is about the same length as the entire 9x19 cartridge, is about half as powerful as this?
In real world it depends what kind of bullet you use on 9mm. Mostly used bullet (practically the only one) for 5.56mm ammo is FMJ, so it would go thru a man without breaking bones. So those are not the most lethal.
For 9mm there are many choises you can use. For example FMJ, JHP and lead.
If you shoot with JHP, the impact energy stays inside the target. The bullet itself causes enormous pressure to veins and soft tissue because it expands on hit. Brakes bones too ---> if these are "used in game" the HP drop should be 50%..90% of targets energy.
Same thing with lead-bullets, energy stays in but it is much smaller because of the smaller load (the lead will melt with same load than JHP or FMJ), expands too if hit on bone etc. These are most accurate ones of 9mm ---> these would cause 30%-50% drop to targets energy because the smaller load.
The "standard" ammo uses FMJ bullets and this also (usually) lets the impact energy stay inside target. However,  the ammo that uses FMJ, uses the most powerful loads too. That gives more speed to bullet  ---> goes more easily thru target. ---> 20%..50% energy drop.

So if I could choose ammo type for 9mm (to shoot a human..) I would take that JHP type. You don't have to hit bulls eye but on every hit the target stays down (usually permanently). When you shoot plastic bag filled with water from 25m, the bag literally explodes. You can shoot up to 50m but then you are really an expert..

I have 9mm para myself and I have tested all available bullet types (and I load cartridges myself..). I have tested 5.56mm weapons too and those are accurate mid-range guns. Up to 400m if you are a good shooter. If you shoot similar water filled plastic bag with 5.56mm, the bullet goes thru the bag and water will come out from 2 holes...

So...if I were hit by bullet, I would like to be hit with 5.56mm. I could have some chance to live...
Another round type is the "cop killer", which mushrooms into a star pattern, shredding the internal organs of the victim.  These are now illegal in the US (as far as I know).
What you are referring to are not what they classify as "cop killers".  Cop Killers are a small pointed rounted, often covered with teflon or other material.  Because of the nature of these bullets they do not mushroom on inpact, making the point of impact very, very small.  As such, they are often capable of penetrating bullet proof vests.

The bullets you are referring to were just a type of hollow point round.  One such round was the Black Talon, which I still have a full clip of for my S&W 40.  These were not outlawed, rather than fight the public and possible lawsuits, the vendor voulantarily took them off the shelf.  At this time only law enforcement can buy them, but they were never officially outlawed.
2005-11-21 10:43:59
nating75
Member
+0|6794

[1stSSF]=Nuka= wrote:

nating75 wrote:

Under-powering of the M16A2? What are you smoking? The burst setting on that thing is unbelievable. 2 clicks and the guys out for good (body armor or not). Sometimes I play assault when I'm the US just to use this gun. (I don't use the nade launcher attachment)

In my opinion its the best assualt rifle in the game.
While I agree that if you hit all 3 bullets on each click, you'll take out a target, I've rarely seen every bullet land unless the clueless wasn't moving while dying. OTOH, when I've played MEC as a medic or assault, I find that I can pretty much guarantee that you will be dead in a head to head fight against a US medic or assault. The AKs simply have more stopping power and UBAR confrims this...

"The AK-47 is the most powerful assualt rifle, but the least accurate, as it really suffers from multiple shot and recoil penalties. The full automatic firing mode is extremly deadly at close range, but medium and long ranges are best left to the semi-auto and zoomed in mode. The AK-47 makes for a good medium range weapon and OK for long ranges. Remember, when in auto mode, you will empty a clip in 3 seconds, so make your shots count."

It's not the most accurate, but it IS the most powerful of the standard weapons...only the G3 beats it (again, per UBAR).
I know that UBAR says it but when in use in a skilled infantry hands. By skilled I mean any advanced player that can snipe with assault rifles. The M16 rocks. sure you're going to loose a few battles everyone does. But if you can snipe and snipe quickly with assault rifles on single shot. The burst in close to medium range while prone is killer.

To me the AK-47 is far too inaccurate. I can see if you're new to the game (by no means do I mean you). The AK would be a better weapon as far as its ability to spray and pray. There's now way you can spray and pray with the M16.

As far as AK-47 against my M16 (as assault only I need to be able to take some damage) from 20 yards, both fully healthed, we both see each other at the same time. I think I can win with the M16 70% of the time (the AK-47 is going to miss no matter how skilled you are with it). I'm not challenging you or anything it's all in the arrow, if it were reversed and you had the M16 you would kill me 80% of the time.

But yes you are correct that the AK-47 is technically more powerful. All I'm saying is in practical gameplay the M16 is better. You don't agree?

Last edited by nating75 (2005-11-21 10:56:47)

2005-11-21 10:54:40
[1stSSF]=Nuka=
Banned
+23|6767|PDX Metro Area, OR, US, SOL

nating75 wrote:

But yes you are correct that the AK-47 is technically more powerful. All I'm saying is in practical gameplay the M16 is better. Do you don't agree?
In the UBAR quote, it makes clear that AK-47 at mid and long ranges is not as good, but you have to put more rounds into a target with an M16 than an AK-47. I don't choose to be assault anymore, and prefer to be a medic w/ AK rather than the upgrade or M16. My weapon, as a medic, is CQC protection in-between heals...

But I'm now on to support, so I'm learning a new set of weapons anyway....
2005-11-21 10:59:01
nating75
Member
+0|6794

[1stSSF]=Nuka= wrote:

nating75 wrote:

But yes you are correct that the AK-47 is technically more powerful. All I'm saying is in practical gameplay the M16 is better. Do you don't agree?
In the UBAR quote, it makes clear that AK-47 at mid and long ranges is not as good, but you have to put more rounds into a target with an M16 than an AK-47. I don't choose to be assault anymore, and prefer to be a medic w/ AK rather than the upgrade or M16. My weapon, as a medic, is CQC protection in-between heals...

But I'm now on to support, so I'm learning a new set of weapons anyway....
Good luck with those weapons . I'm absolute crap when I get a light machine gun in my hands (which may explain some of my AK-47 woes).

Last edited by nating75 (2005-11-21 10:59:37)

2005-11-21 11:03:57
blacksheepcannibal
Member
+24|6769
i can completely and totally answer all of the topic-starters questions, and without a doubt, i am correct. you cant even possible argue against me, and if you do, really think about what you are doing.

Two words: *GAME BALANCE*.

if all the guns in the game were accurate, US would have a ludicrous advantage over the other two armies.
2005-11-21 11:20:47
nating75
Member
+0|6794

blacksheepcannibal wrote:

i can completely and totally answer all of the topic-starters questions, and without a doubt, i am correct. you cant even possible argue against me, and if you do, really think about what you are doing.

Two words: *GAME BALANCE*.

if all the guns in the game were accurate, US would have a ludicrous advantage over the other two armies.
I'm going to have to agree with you on that!!!! USA rocks (I'm asking to be flamed, do it, do it, do it now!)
2005-11-21 11:25:15
Boogie
Member
+1|6763
I agree its more about weapon balance and balanced gameplay then anything.  I wrote a weapons mod for COD:UO based on ammo/gun charastics, while I thought it was topshelp realism, my clan mates and other regs on our server let me know otherwise.
2005-11-21 23:16:01
RedFiercare
The Kid
+2|6761

ayb wrote:

CackNBallz wrote:

minispud wrote:

Remember, 50 cent was shot 9 times (a damage of ~180) and he's still alive.
HAHAH!! That is gold.
50's an obvious hacker
He's an obvious medic.  (Well with BF2 skins he'd be support)
2005-11-22 10:01:13
FeloniousMonk
Member
+0|6752

atlvolunteer wrote:

Another round type is the "cop killer", which mushrooms into a star pattern, shredding the internal organs of the victim.  These are now illegal in the US (as far as I know).
No, sorry. First of all there's no such thing as a "cop killer" bullet. They don't exist; they were invented by the media to scare people into voting for ridiculous gun control policies.

Armor piercing rounds were designed by law enforcement for law enforcement. KTW rounds were designed to punch through windshields and other hard targets and have never, ever been legally available to the public. They are often coated in Teflon for the sole purpose of reducing the excessive wear caused by using a steel cored brass bullet.

The bullets that "mushroom into a star pattern" are hollow point rounds that are preferred by law enforcement for two reasons. Since the bullet is designed to expend most of its' energy into the target by opening up and in many cases fragmenting, there is less risk of the bullet exiting the target and hitting a bystander. Also, while the military prefers to wound the enemy in most cases, hence the use of the full metal jacket rounds, law enforcement is trained to kill targets in as few shots as possible to quickly end the threat to LEOs and the public.

Hollow point rounds are legal and readily available in just about every caliber.
2005-11-22 10:22:09
blacksheepcannibal
Member
+24|6769
i hate to degenerate and get off topic this much, but i do recall a friend of mine mentioning having .44 teflon coated rounds. i might have misheard, but yeah.

hydroshock rounds are basically discarding sabot rounds. hardened cereamic core sheathed by lead or another soft metal. availible on open market, and legal.

so called "cop killer" rounds are illegally aquired armor piercing rounds. they do occasionally get into the wrong hands, although i agree, the media, (as usuall) blows it all sorts of out of proportions.
2005-11-22 10:41:01
FeloniousMonk
Member
+0|6752

blacksheepcannibal wrote:

i hate to degenerate and get off topic this much, but i do recall a friend of mine mentioning having .44 teflon coated rounds. i might have misheard, but yeah.

hydroshock rounds are basically discarding sabot rounds. hardened cereamic core sheathed by lead or another soft metal. availible on open market, and legal.

so called "cop killer" rounds are illegally aquired armor piercing rounds. they do occasionally get into the wrong hands, although i agree, the media, (as usuall) blows it all sorts of out of proportions.
The Teflon coating has nothing to do with the bullet's ability to pierce through body armor. The coating is only there to reduce the wear and tear on the gun itself. KTW rounds are Teflon coated for this reason (and because of the additional heat buildup) but the process itself can be used by any ammo manufacturer for commercial rounds. It's not illegal to buy Teflon coated bullets, only KTW designed rounds.

The funny part about the "cop killer" moniker is that they were first used to describe KTW rounds for handguns....yet there has never been a recorded incident of a KTW round piercing an officer's body armor and fatally wounding him. Yes, the media has blown them all out of proportion and in reality it's harder to get your hands on KTW rounds than it is to get your hands on actual military issue weapons.
2005-11-22 21:49:21
nayo450
Member
+-1|6810
illigal? can't buy them on the open market? then what do you call these
http://www.usmilitarysurplus.com/surplu … ts_id=1516
2005-11-22 22:20:43
PFC_Kurtz_John
Member
+0|6796|VA

minispud wrote:

Gripes about the lack of power in some of the weapons, and the excess of power in others.

My first complaint is with the under-powering of the M16A2, L85A1, M294 SAW and the overpowering of the AK101.  They all use the same bullet, the .223 Remington (5.56x45 NATO), and yet, even with barrel lengths of about the same length (the main judge in the energy, and thus the killing power of a bullet), there is a serious descrepency in the damage differences.  They all have relatively similar ballistics, and the main differences in performance of these weapons is the durability, which I have seen only AA address, with the jams.  Other than that, these weapons should all have about the same damaging power, with the L85A1 having the largest damage number, since its barrel is approx. 10mm longer than that of the M16, which is about 40mm longer than the SAW and AK101.  Call me a fact monkey (or whatever else, I don't care), but these weapons should have about the same damage.

Now, onto the pistols.  All of them shoot a 9mm, and what you're telling me is that that 9mm bullet does 20 damage, but the 5.56mm round (the .223 in the M16, L85, M249 and AK101), whose brass casing is about the same length as the entire 9x19 cartridge, is about half as powerful as this?  Remember, 50 cent was shot 9 times (a damage of ~180) and he's still alive.  Now, personally, I love how the pistol is completly unrealistic, since it's my mini-sniper rifle when I'm AA/AT, but that's a different story.

The G3.  That is the grandfather of the proud (and rightfully so) HK family line, its internals are replicated twice in this game, in the G36 and MP5, and somehow, its .308 bullet is of a different power than the .308 that's used in the M24 (Am sniper), and yet there is that huge power difference.  Now, personally, I believe that the G3 should do more damage (though I got my ass thoroughly swiss-cheesed by it) because after all, that bullet is one big ass bullet.  The PKM which uses a similarly designed calibre, should also recieve a little ball power boost, though the G3 and PKM don't really need it.

Lastly [for now], why does the G3 not get the grenade launcher?  HK made a grenade launcher for the G3 that uses the same 40mm grenades that the M203 on the M16 uses.  http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl09-e.htm 

These are just some things that I personally noted, and all of my information was gathered from Max Popenker, of http://world.guns.ru/main-e.htm  Very interesting reading if you're ever bored, but then again, that's what BF2's for.  Other than those little things (which really don't bother me much), I love the game, just think the developers need to give the guns a little more credit.
Your my hero
2005-11-23 05:18:27
JeSTeR_Player1
Flying Solo
+98|6787|Canada, Ont
If anything, the Medic Unlock is Overpower'd (With the Exception of AK-101)

Ubar has nicely placed the Damage Number on all Guns...Take a Look

MEC has the best Guns
2005-11-23 05:30:04
SharkyMcshark
I'll take two
+132|6802|Perth, Western Australia
You people really need lives...

 

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