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2006-10-11 01:50:40
Coolbeano
Level 13.5 BF2S Ninja Penguin Sensei
+378|7018

Yes there is a fine line between the two but I'd like to encompass both of them as each other in this thread.

Simply, my question is...

Is being a patriot/nationalist, which is quite praised in the US, a very socialist collective set of beliefs/ideals?

Keep in mind I'm not restricting this to the US.

Patriotism can be considered socialist in a way of being together and going on the same path, uniting as a whole collective force... or in a way it's just an enlargement of a capitalist society, where different nations are the individuals of a global society... or what?

Consider, and discuss.
2006-10-11 04:27:38
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7027|PNW

Let me establish some groundwork for this thread, which will probably end up becoming an argument about semantics anyhow.

socialism 
–noun
1.    a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

patriotism
–noun
devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty.

nationalism
-noun
1.    national spirit or aspirations.
2.    devotion and loyalty to one's own nation; patriotism.
3.    excessive patriotism; chauvinism.
4.    the desire for national advancement or independence.
5.    the policy or doctrine of asserting the interests of one's own nation, viewed as separate from the interests of other nations or the common interests of all nations.
6.    an idiom or trait peculiar to a nation.
7.    a movement, as in the arts, based upon the folk idioms, history, aspirations, etc., of a nation.
My conclusions are:
  • National unity is not necessary restricted to socialism.
  • Neither patriotism nor nationalism are necessarily related to socialism.
  • The definitions of patriotism and nationalism are loosely intertwined.
  • Nationalism can be either good or bad, depending upon the extent to which it is taken, and upon the state of things in whatever country you're using as a an example.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-10-11 04:34:31)

2006-10-11 04:34:01
Cougar
Banned
+1,962|7020|Dallas

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Let me establish some groundwork for this thread, which will probably end up becoming an argument about semantics anyhow.

socialism 
–noun
1.    a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

patriotism
–noun
devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty.

nationalism
-noun
1.    national spirit or aspirations.
2.    devotion and loyalty to one's own nation; patriotism.
3.    excessive patriotism; chauvinism.
4.    the desire for national advancement or independence.
5.    the policy or doctrine of asserting the interests of one's own nation, viewed as separate from the interests of other nations or the common interests of all nations.
6.    an idiom or trait peculiar to a nation.
7.    a movement, as in the arts, based upon the folk idioms, history, aspirations, etc., of a nation.
My conclusions are:
  • Neither patriotism nor nationalism are necessarily related to socialism.
  • The definitions of patriotism and nationalism are loosely intertwined.
  • Nationalism can be either good or bad, depending upon the extent to which it is taken, and upon the state of things in whatever country you're using as a an example.
Way to go.  You pretty much destroyed this threads need to exist.

+1
2006-10-11 04:35:31
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7027|PNW

Thanks, but it's not necessarily over yet...
2006-10-11 05:19:53
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6804|Southeastern USA
the sticky thing with multiple definitions is that (concerning nationalism) people tend to focus on just one or two, like numbers 3 and 5, you can be a nationalist by adhering to any one of those defs, but you don't have to adhere to all 7
2006-10-11 05:29:17
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7027|PNW

kr@cker wrote:

the sticky thing with multiple definitions is that (concerning nationalism) people tend to focus on just one or two, like numbers 3 and 5, you can be a nationalist by adhering to any one of those defs, but you don't have to adhere to all 7
Which is why it can be a good or a bad thing, like rain.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-10-11 05:30:31)

2006-10-11 08:02:58
Coolbeano
Level 13.5 BF2S Ninja Penguin Sensei
+378|7018

Jesus off topic already?

Pssh.

Come on man, debate = opinion != dictionary whore
2006-10-11 08:48:29
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7021|Cambridge (UK)
That depends on whether your a pedant or not...
2006-10-11 11:20:21
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|6977|Eastern PA
I would argue that what separates the nationalist from the patriot is the degree of primacy given to the nation (defined as a particular group with a shared identity, ethnicity, etc.) and it's relation to the state (the political entity). A true nationalist separates who is and is not a member of the state based on who is and is not a member of the "nation". Above all the nation is the fundamental unit around which all social agents (humans) derive meaning. For patriots in the most classic sense, the state (not necessarily the "nation") is the defining "moral end". Patriotism can manifest itself in a nationalistic way (towards an ethnic group as a subset of the population) or in a more general way (the superset of citizenry as a whole).

This completely divorces the concept of "socialism" from the debate, but still relates to the concept of collectivism which is itself a seperate concept from socialism (collective ownership of the means of production). Nationalism taken to extremes can manifest itself in  a sort of vertical collectivism wherein members of the group totally submit to authority and personal identity/wants are sacrificed for the collective "good". IMO, this:
or in a way it's just an enlargement of a capitalist society, where different nations are the individuals of a global society
seems more like a cosmopolitan attitude, which would be the antithesis of patriotism.

Historically nationalist movements have taken various forms, from the right wing (the hindustan movement in India, the KKK, NAZIs) to the left wing (Vietminh, Mau Mau, ANC, Bolsheviks). They are most definitely collective and sometimes socialist, but not always.
2006-10-16 19:36:52
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7027|PNW

Coolbeano wrote:

Jesus off topic already?

Pssh.

Come on man, debate = opinion != dictionary whore
Look, if you don't want a discussion supported by anything, then don't create a topic. M'kay? I happen to hold more stock in the literal translation of words rather than their popular use. M'kay.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-10-16 19:37:47)

 

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