ImmortalTechnique
Banned
+33|6775
I've been researching Islamic banking, and I've come to the conclusion that it's the biggest hoax in the world, worth some $200 billion.

Basically, "interest" is not Shari'a compliant, because, well 1500 years back, it use to be exploitative and was thus banned in the Koran. Thus, Islamic banking is theoretically suppose to avoid using interest in order to be halal.

I've never really understood how you can run a modern enterprise without the concept of interest rate. As it turns out, you can't. Islamic banking is about disguising the use of interest rates, rather than eliminating them. So a bunch of products have been invented to do so like:

1. Sale and leaseback: A fixed piece of equipment is given to some one on instalments, and then returned to the original owner after a period of time ... or, a secured amortizing loan!
2. Sale via installments: A fixed piece of equipment is sold via a series of installments ... in other words, an amortizing loan!
3. Income participation: I.e. entitlement to a certain percentage of the cash flow of a business, after a minimum point ... or, a deferrable, non-cumulative interest bearing hybrid bond!
4. The worst ones, though, are based on derivative instruments. Derivative instruments derive their value from some sort on interest rate assumption ... so the VERY concept of derivatives requires the existence of interest rates. How can you possibly have "Islamic" compliant derivative instruments. One of the banks involved even had a Shari'a compliant interest rate swap. WTF?!?

I mean, come on, this is basically a semantics game that is being played out - with very high stakes. It is seriously retarding the growth of some countries (cause all these semantic games cost a lot of money), and not allowing them to partake in a modern global system.

Sorry, needed to vent!
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6783|Global Command
What your saying in a very sneaky way is that Sharia and Islam is holding large parts of the world back.

I agree.
ImmortalTechnique
Banned
+33|6775
I know a fair amount about Medieval and Early Modern Christian usury doctrine, and some of the same thinking may apply. Its important to remember that (theologically) there's a huge difference between usury and many other forms of loans or investment (in this period, usury is the only word used for what we know as interest 'interest' is from the french interesse which is for a form of payment described in different terms, but which amounted to interest, and eventually formed the theological rationale for the relaxation of the doctrine).

Basically, in order for a payment to be usurious it has to meet the following requirements.

1) It must be attached to a loan of money, not land, equipment, or any other form of property.
2) It must be fixed and predetermined.
3) The loan is expected to be returned to the lender.

If these conditions are not met, the loan is not usurious, and therefore not sinful. But these conditions leave a huge amount of wiggle room (for example investment's fine, so long as your return is on a profit sharing, and not an interest basis). The thinking underlying them is based primarily on economic assumptions which are now known to be false, notably that money never changes in value and that it can only be used if consumed. Under this logic, usury is considered wrong, because you're giving someone money, and taking more money in return than you gave, which is considered morally identical to theft.

Don't know how much of this applies, but the point is that just because they're employing practises similar to interest, doesn't mean they're theologically identical. Of course the underlying assumptions are ridiculous, but they're based on a logic of sorts.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6783|Global Command
Which will be lost on the masses.
In the end of your 2nd post you seem to be imply that their brand of interest somehow is not as sinfull as ours, how so?
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7017|d
i guess they think its better then the alternatives.
Tetrino
International OMGWTFBBQ
+200|6984|Uhh... erm...
The basic principle behind Islamic banking is the bank buys the whatever, then sells it to you in a series of installments for a profit.

That's what it's supposed to be, at any rate. You're correct regarding the history, Immortal. During Muhammad's time, the rich businessmen used horribly high interest rates to swindle the poor.

Well, everything succumbs to corruption over time, so it's the Islamic banking system's turn, I guess.
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|6963|Wilmington, DE, US
This necro thread begs me to ask why Immortal got banned.

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