BF2S Forums Tyranny, torture legalized - Detainee bill passes - Bush FTW

ATG wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Great post Shipbuilder. The United States of America officially died with the passing of that bill. The power to indefinitely hold ANYONE without trial, with the ability to carry out very broadly defined coercion techniques, concentrated in the hands of those who are generally the most corrupt in the country - politicians. Hang your heads in shame and don't expect any sympathy when the terrorists do likewise to your brethren. You are now morally equivalent.

Hello?
Must I post a link to torture, mutilation and murder videos  having been committed against our troops long before this bill was siged?

Hello.
I believe you misinterpreted. He's not saying our troops haven't been tortured before. He's saying that, going forward, if our troops are tortured, we shouldn't expect anyone to care, since the Pentagon essentially has been granted carte blanche to do it too.

ATG wrote:

the bill mostly defines exactly what is the legal line where interrorgation becomes torture.

And what is the problem with abiding by the laws of the Geneva Conventions that were long ago ratified by Congress? Suddenly after 50 years the language is "too vague"? What suddenly renders the language vague?

ATG wrote:

I know you'd prefer the same vague rules that were devised during the cold war for dealing with OTHER signors to the geneva convention, but we live in the world of flagless armies, and we can't ask professionals to extract information from a prisoner thereby risking criminal punishment when the standars for crime are not clearly defined.

Do you believe the distinction between interrogation and torture is CLEARER in this bill than in the Geneva Conventions? I'm interested to read these rules you say are vague. Can you link to the specific ones you mean?

=CA=lamcrmbem wrote:

Excuse me...did you just call Abraham Lincoln an A$$hole?  Amazing!  I can officially stop listening to anything IRONCHEF has to say.  To think that you value yourself and your opionion so how that you can call one of our greatest presidents and arguably the only reason we are still a country today such a foul name is unbeliveable.

Here, read this and tell me if you're not seeing any similarities with present day political corruption.  THe difference is, Bush is using his rubber stamp republican house and senate to pass his suspension of habeas corpus because he can't cancel our freedom of speech.. He's tried to supress our freedom of speech (see failed attack on net neutrality, and other things like going after bloggers).  Other differences are that Lincoln was in legal warfare and Bush is not.  Bush was also just handed a slap on the hand from his own supreme court telling him his torture and his own interpretation of the geneva convention was unconstitutional...so he goes around the courts and uses his free pass congress...all before next week when congress is out of session!  Just the fast paced maneuvering to get things passed before dems take over in november put a guilty, seditious face on that shithead.

anyway...lincoln is not just the great things we grew uup hearing...in fact, some of our fore fathers were absolute criminals or pigs!

jonsimon wrote:

=CA=lamcrmbem wrote:

Excuse me...did you just call Abraham Lincoln an A$$hole?  Amazing!  I can officially stop listening to anything IRONCHEF has to say.  To think that you value yourself and your opionion so how that you can call one of our greatest presidents and arguably the only reason we are still a country today such a foul name is unbeliveable.

Some historians would agree with him. His views are not inferior because they are more complex than the ones fed you in highschool.

It's not about complex or simple.  It's not even about inferior or not.  I in no way compare myself to IRONCHEF.  My self-worth or ideas are not tied up in if I can "beat" someone else in a discussion.

I know BF2s provides some level of annonimity and no one really knows anybody elses age or background.

I'll give you a little of mine so you know where I'm coming from.

I'm a West Point Graduate.  I was an Army Officer for 5 years.  I served a year in Baghdad.  You can all guess my age from that.  You all know my political leanings.  Fine.

Now, you want to view Abraham Lincoln that way, your call.  your opinion is yours.  However, I don't care who you are, without him were are two separate countries right now.  At the very least show some respect for him as our president.  You nor anybody else in this forum has had to shoulder the HUGE responsibility of leading our country.  If nothing else, respect that.  Its a tremendously stressful position with very little thanks from anybody.  NO ONE gets it right 100% of the time.  But to disrespect a former president, especially one as influencial on our country as Abe Lincoln by calling him an A$$hole I have a problem with. 

Actually, calling any former president that, including Clinton and I'm no big fan, is disrespectful.

IRONCHEF wrote:

Colfax wrote:

Nothing is finite.  Law means nothing.  Laws can be changed and changed back.  You follow the laws in place and your fine.  Don't act like a terrorist and you're fine [period]

Brilliant logic.  But since you aren't American, I'll fill you in on something...

Hey IRONCHEF

what does it say by From?

what does my sig say?

Hey Ship Builder

I thought i was done with you so stop quoting me.  Thx

Last edited by Colfax (2006-09-29 17:11:33)

Ikarti wrote:

Colfax wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

Brilliant logic.  But since you aren't American, I'll fill you in on something...

Hey IRONCHEF

what does it say by From?

what does my sig say?

I think it went over your head.

Last time i checked i was an American Born and raised.  SS card says i am, birth certificate, driver license,  Income taxes i pay.

I think its going over your head

Colfax wrote:

I thought i was done with you so stop quoting me.  Thx

Wikipedia on the psychoanalytical aspect of the authoritarian personality:

Wikipedia wrote:

Adorno and his colleagues regarded the fundamental basis of this presumed system of personality qualities and its linkage to certain attitudes according to a psychoanalytic viewpoint: experiences in early childhood and their internalization.

Freud's psychoanalytic theory suggests that values and norms that are first represented in the person of the father are internalized in the course of the child's development. From these the first unconscious stage of the so-called superego develop. The grappling with an authoritarian, very strict father leads to the development of a very strong superego. Thereby, from the earliest childhood onward, unconscious desires and drives (e.g., power and sexual license) must be thrust down and remain unsatisfied.

The unconscious conflicts that are unleashed thereby are solved when the person projects the "forbidden" drives and aggressions of his superego onto other people. As a rule, ethnic, political or religious minorities are selected as a screen for these projections, because this way there are no social sanctions to fear. Often, he can fall back on socially acceptable prejudices. Studies by Hans Eysenck, Milton Rokeach and many others go into this question.

Alfred Adler provided another perspective, linking the "will to power over others" as a central neurotic trait, usually emerging as aggressive over-compensation for felt and dreaded feelings of inferiority and insignificance. The authoritarian need to maintain control and prove superiority over others is rooted in a world view populated by enemies, empty of equality, empathy, and mutual benefit.

Colfax wrote:

"Brilliant logic.  But since you aren't American, I'll fill you in on something...  I'll start with this quote from someone who understands what freedom is who would challenge Bush to a duel if he were alive today.."

why are you defending his mistake...

My behavior is on par with 50% + of america so who is really acting unamerican.

More like 38% and if you ever read the constitution or declaration of independence then you should know you're really not. You're just a jingo.

Where'd the 50%+ come from. I'm going off one of Bush's approval ratings. He could have screwed up, think he would have said something. It's not hard to miss the american flags and eagles in your sig. But weren't you done here anyway?

Colfax wrote:

Ikarti wrote:

Colfax wrote:

"Brilliant logic.  But since you aren't American, I'll fill you in on something...  I'll start with this quote from someone who understands what freedom is who would challenge Bush to a duel if he were alive today.."

why are you defending his mistake...

My behavior is on par with 50% + of america so who is really acting unamerican.

More like 38% and if you ever read the constitution or declaration of independence then you should know you're really not. You're just a jingo.

38%  what poll is that off of?

does anyone else see him actually saying i'm unamerican or did he just screw up?  Honestly the way wrote that implies he thinks im from europe or something.

I am pretty sure when he says you are unamerican he means that the principles/ideals you are advocating go against the foundations of America->thus even though you are born in America your actions/opinion seem to counter that fact.

AAFCptKabbom wrote:

They're finally coming for TheShit_Builder and all of his paranoid forum terrorists 

Ah, such intellectual rigor and wit - always to be expected from my old pal Kabbom.

So Kabbom, do you have any thoughts or comments on the matter at hand? Or just want to lay down some ad hominem sniping fire?

Korpen wrote:

Colfax wrote:

Oh and terrorist appeasing libs like ship builder they are more American.  Face it people we haven't been attacked in 5 years.  Other places have.  Right there is proof someone is doing something right. 

Bush's approval rating has nothing to do with how people feel about this topic.

I'd bleed for this country under this president and the next and the next call me unamerican again you stupid fuckers. 

Theres nothing else to be said.

Korpen you registered today what do you know about my behavior on whether or not I'm American enough.

First, blind obidience is not patriotism or doing something right for your country. Being American doesn't mean you can't disagree with the president or anyone else for that matter. Also, Colfax does my extent of time on this forum somehow weaken my sense of observation or logic...for that matter I did not say you were unamerican rather I questioned the fact that what you advocate to some degree violates many of the principles of America. Finally, calling people stupid fuckers due to criticism seems like a desperate measure to redeem yourself on some level.

oh yeah cuz i'm trying to redeem myself from what? nothing.  i don't think this guy who doesn't know me should call me unamerican.  It would be strolling up to a random guy and calling him gay.  I don't know if he is gay but i don't care. 

And yes the extent of you time on this forum does make some type of difference in the opinion you instantly judge someone on.
Like i wouldn't go around saying Poe is a conservative.  That would be a stupid statement because if you were on the forums often you would know he isn't.

And i don't have blind obedience?  I believe in my country.  I believe it should be free and everyone has a right to there own opinion (rather i agree to it or not).  I see in no way this new bill affecting my freedom. (i read it) Because i don't act hostile to the United States.  I dont support terrorism.  I dont blindly follow anything.  I know what i'm following.

Last edited by Colfax (2006-09-29 18:15:52)

it shouldn't be a problem unless you have something to hide right?

Well i question what you are trying to do in this topic make a point or just keep talking.  Why don't you lay off me and make some comment about the topic at hand.