ATG
Banned
+5,233|6530|Global Command
1st,  read the articles in these three links.
2nd, be honest; do you still stick by the mantra “Bush Lied People Died”


http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007540
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200401/pollack
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re … p?ID=23264

We can be reasonable people and disagree about the war. But to demean yourself by spewing tired rehashed argument that have little basis in reality only takes away your credibility.

I think it was a mistake to put boots on the ground.
It was not a mistake to take extreme military action. My complaint is that the war should be widened to include Syria and  Iran.



* edit
tweaked to be less controversial.
Now please read the articles.

Last edited by ATG (2006-09-23 09:51:49)

Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|6710|Wilmington, DE, US
ATG, how about we fix shit here before taking on the rest of the "Axis of Evil?"
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6492|Northern California
Yeah dude, nobody died when Bush lied.  But he IS STUPID!

See?  I can post articles from biased sources too!
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6652|USA

Ikarti wrote:

ATG, how about we fix shit here before taking on the rest of the "Axis of Evil?"
OK, but answer his question
AAFCptKabbom
Member
+127|6659|WPB, FL. USA
Good post and valid points - you've done your homework {and btw i luv your sig - would be great if you changed the end to "I've converted - are you happy now"} !

However,
INCOMING LEFT WING, FLAME THROWING, HAXORZ, TERRORIST SYMPATHIZING, BUSH BASHING, AMERICA HATING, CLOSE MINDED BIASED POST's ARE ON THERE WAY - DUCK

Kaboom.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6530|Global Command
It seems no one on the left seems to have read the articles.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6562
The first one makes broad generalisations about who believed what without any evidence.  Hans Blix, for example, stated that he didn't feel Iraq had any WMDs

The second one talks about the fact that Iraq pursued WMD programs until 1995 or 1996.  The invasion was in 2003.

The third one attempts to prove a link between Iraq and Al Qaeda on the premise that the evidence against it is testimony from prisoners, which is false.  The evidence against it is that Iraq was a secular government, putting them at odds with Al Qaeda.
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|6769
i read them. for every claim there is a counter claim, and for every counter claim there is a counter counter claim.

you have too look at every side and make your own mind up.

Article 1: Norman Podhorretz is a right wing columnist and is considered to be a neocon. He has links to Project for the New American Century or PNAC. Hardly Simone who is going to give a balanced view.

Article 2: dated feb 2004. Although he is a very qualified guy...maybe

Article 3: You could find just as many links on the net saying they were not linked.

Hard to know what to believe.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6530|Global Command

IRONCHEF wrote:

Yeah dude, nobody died when Bush lied.  But he IS STUPID!

See?  I can post articles from biased sources too!
Oh jesus, I got the the part of the utube were they site the Dixie Chicks as a source..ffs man you can/should do better than that!!!
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6562
You gonna admit that those articles prove nothing?
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6530|Global Command
You gonna say something to disprove them or just be your usual lizardlike contradictory self?
edit
oh, saw your post.
Well kiwi, I think I could say the suns coming up tomorrow and you'd argue it. Tbh, I'm trying really hard just to ignore you and your blatherings.

Last edited by ATG (2006-09-21 22:52:22)

Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6562
So, the fact that none of your articles have any actual facts means I'm blathering?
=JoD=Corithus
Member
+30|6559
No, the fact that regardless of how often and repeatedly you are bludgeoned with facts, you will never, ever, just shut the hell up.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6562
What facts were presented in those articles?
~wOw~Adopted.Son
Member
+3|6744|So CA
The left uses simple-minded slogans and personal attacks because it is bankrupt of ideas. "Bush is a Nazi" "Bush is like Hitler" "Bush is stupid" "Bush lied, people died". All slogans and all void of ideas and answers. The left does not think, it FEELS. It has no tangible ideas for the war on terror, but instead uses spokes persons like Michael Moore whose "hit piece" Fahrenheit 911 was packed with easily demonstrable distortions and lies and who said flat out, "there is no terrorist threat". Huh? No terrorist threat? The left's complete disregard for decorum in public discourse reveals just hate. Not ideas, not plans, not strategy, just hate. When was the last time you heard a Republican politician or political operative say about Democrats the equivalent of Howard Dean's, "I hate Republicans"? or "Republicans are evil"? The left is so focused on hating Bush and hating Republicans and hating Christians that it has forgotten to think.

The facts are very clear. Islamofascists have been at war with the US for over three decades. Starting with the takeover of the US Embassy during Carter's tenure and continuing with the attack on the marine barracks in Lebanon during the Regan administration, we have taken a decidedly passive stance with them. This emboldened them and lead to further attacks. President Clinton did very little to actively fight terrorists. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, he was overly confident. So President Bush inherited a legacy of the US running away from conflict (with a few exceptions in the Regan era). Iran, Iraq, Libya and their ilk all believed that they could act with impunity to malign, undermine and attack the US and its interests. For years, with the backing of the UN, they succeeded. Bush was willing to do the very difficult thing and act when the UN could do nothing but stand by and piss itself.

Thank God neither Al Gore nor John Kerry were at the helm after 9/11. They would have "gotten a conference room and talked the enemies to death", to borrow a line from The BOURNE IDENTITY.

You don't agree? Explain to us then the left's plan is to fight terrorism. Is it diplomacy? That has failed miserably. In fact, our dogged reliance on it has allowed North Korea to become a nuclear power. Is it to circle the wagons and let the rest of the world be converted to Islam at the end of a sword? I hope not. I have never heard the left articulate a clear strategy to deal with Isalmofascists. Heck, Democrats even object to calling them that lest we offend them. I sure am glad that Bush is in charge. God help us if we get a lefty in the White House.

Last edited by ~wOw~Adopted.Son (2006-09-21 23:27:21)

Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6562
Hey dumbass, this thread is the first time I've heard 3 of those "slogans", and "Bush is stupid" is hardly a slogan.  I find it funny that you cite Michael Moore as a spokesperson, when that requires there to be some kind of organisation.  In fact, most Liberals I've met view Moore's films as nothing more than light entertainment.

Further, you haven't been at war with "Islamofascists" for 3 decades.  For one, fascism is completely different to Al Qaeda's goal of a theocratic Muslim superstate.  Further, you were sponsoring them during the Cold War (Soviet-Afghanistan War).  Further, Korea is not a nuclear power, and even if it were to become one it wouldn't have enough nukes to be a nuclear threat to anyone.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6530|Global Command
But Insaneislamofacist have been at war with US bubs.
Maybe becuase you've never heard those slogans you are unqualified to post in my thread ( as usual. )
=JoD=Corithus
Member
+30|6559

Bubbalo wrote:

Hey dumbass, this thread is the first time I've heard 3 of those "slogans", and "Bush is stupid" is hardly a slogan.  I find it funny that you cite Michael Moore as a spokesperson, when that requires there to be some kind of organisation.  In fact, most Liberals I've met view Moore's films as nothing more than light entertainment.

Further, you haven't been at war with "Islamofascists" for 3 decades.  For one, fascism is completely different to Al Qaeda's goal of a theocratic Muslim superstate.  Further, you were sponsoring them during the Cold War (Soviet-Afghanistan War).  Further, Korea is not a nuclear power, and even if it were to become one it wouldn't have enough nukes to be a nuclear threat to anyone.
So, Bubbalo, just out of curiosity, how many nuclear weapons does it take to become a serious threat? Is there some scale? Some readily available guide to run off of, or, are you, as usual, rambling on randomly, babbling incoheriently?  Would you consider, say, two nuclear weapons to be a serious threat? To be "enough nukes to be a nuclear threat to anyone", as you put it? If not, I suggest you talk to someof the residents of Hiroshima, or Nagasaki.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6562
Wow, one city.  And what do you think could be done with a few chemical weapons?  IIRC, estimates for North Korea's nuke building capability are in the single figures.  Now, given that they aren't likely to target South Korea or China, and that 6 nukes can't do much damage to Japan, do you really think they should be the primary concern?

I'm still waiting to learn these mind-boggling facts you tell me so much about.

Last edited by Bubbalo (2006-09-21 23:47:28)

=JoD=Corithus
Member
+30|6559
Uh, actually, Hiroshima = one city, Nagasaki = one city, now, I'm sure even you should be capable of this feat of mathematics, what is 1+1 Bubbalo?
A few chemical weapons? You mean like the mustard gas used in the battles of World War 1 for several years? Or do you actually mean to say BIOLOGICAL weapons, such as weaponized anthrax?
And  6 nukes on Japan, as densely populated as that nation is, would end millions of lives, and completely annihilate that nations economy and military, setting it back several decades.......it seems you don't quite comprehend the power of a nuclear reaction......
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6562
Yes, but each nuke only destroyed one.  And no, 6 nukes couldn't annihilate their economy or military (which, by the way, isn't technically a military, for several reasons).  And I fail to see how mustard gas is the only chemical weapon.  You're right, however, in that biological weapons are also a threat.  And you seem to overestimate the effects of a nuclear.  But hey, who cares.  It's not like anything I say has any bearing.  I mean, I espouse a Liberal viewpoint, I must be crazy.
=JoD=Corithus
Member
+30|6559
No, I rather enjoy logical debate with democrats, those who can intelligently display their view points, supported by actual evidence.  You, rarely have anything new to add to the conversation, that isn't unjustified anti-americanism, or simply arguements for the sake of arguing.  The inherient problem with chemical or biologial weapons is very simple: nature.  A nice breeze, or hell, even a rain storm can significantly reduce the effects of any chemical or biological agent.  A nuke, however, annihilates everything and everyone in its burn zone.  The weapons used on Japan in the 40's to destory cities, are weaker than the tactical weapons now, theorized to be used against troop concentrations.  And yes, even though the JDF isn't "technically" an armed force, their tanks, planes, and ships would still not fare too well on the recieving end of a nuke.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6562
Actually, it's JSDF.  And they are an armed force, but not a military.  I'm wondering how anything I've said here is anti-Americanism, but okay.............

A breeze actually increases the effectiveness by carrying the weapon further.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6633|949

14 Oct 2002, Dearborn, Michigan, President George W Bush: "This is a man that we know has had connections with al Qaeda. This is a man who, in my judgment, would like to use al Qaeda as a forward army."

7 Nov 2002 President George W Bush declares: "Some people say, 'Oh, we must leave Saddam alone, otherwise, if we did something against him, he might attack us.' Well, if we don't do something he might attack us, and he might attack us with a more serious weapon. The man is a threat... He's a threat because he is dealing with al Qaeda... And we're going to deal with him."

17 Mar 2003 President George W Bush: "We cannot live under the threat of blackmail. The terrorist threat to America and the world will be diminished the moment that Saddam Hussein is disarmed."

17 Mar 2003 President George W Bush: "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."

17 Sep 2003 President George W Bush: "No, we've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with September the 11th."

What most people will not have realised until now, however, was that Britain and the US waged a secret war against Iraq for months before the tanks rolled over the border in March 2003. Documentary evidence and ministerial answers in parliament reveal the existence of a clandestine bombing campaign designed largely to provoke Iraq into taking action that could be used to justify the start of the war.

In the absence of solid legal grounds for war, in other words, the allies tried to bomb Saddam Hussein into providing their casus belli. And when that didn't work they just stepped up the bombing rate, in effect starting the conflict without telling anyone.

The main evidence lies in leaked documents relating to a crucial meeting chaired by the Prime Minister in July 2002 - the documents which supported the Sunday Times story, published during this past election campaign, about how Blair promised George W Bush in April that year that Britain would back regime change.

A briefing paper for the ministers and officials at the meeting - this was in effect a British war cabinet - laid out two alternative US war plans. The first, a "generated start", involved a slow build-up of roughly 250,000 troops in Kuwait. Allied aircraft would then mount an air war, which would be followed by a full-scale invasion. The second option was a "running start", in which a continuous air campaign, "initiated by an Iraqi casus belli", would be mounted without any overt military build-up. Allied special forces giving support to Iraqi opposition groups on the ground would be joined by further troops as and when they arrived in theatre, until the regime collapsed. A few days after the meeting, the Americans opted for a hybrid of the two in which the air war would begin, as for a running start, as soon as the Iraqis provided the justification for war, while at the same time an invasion force would be built up, as for a generated start.
taken from http://www.newstatesman.com/200505300013

The stark differences between the public version and the then top-secret version of the October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate raise new questions about the accuracy of the public case made for a war that's claimed the lives of more than 500 U.S. service members and thousands of Iraqis.

The two documents are replete with differences. For example, the public version declared that "most analysts assess Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program" and says "if left unchecked, it probably will have a nuclear weapon within this decade."

But it fails to mention the dissenting view offered in the top-secret version by the State Department's intelligence arm, the Bureau of Intelligence and Research, known as the INR.

That view said, in part, "The activities we have detected do not, however, add up to a compelling case that Iraq is currently pursuing what INR would consider to be an integrated and comprehensive approach to acquire nuclear weapons. Iraq may be doing so, but INR considers the available evidence inadequate to support such a judgment."

The alternative view further said "INR is unwilling to ... project a timeline for the completion of activities it does not now see happening."

Both versions were written by the National Intelligence Council, a board of senior analysts who report to CIA Director George Tenet and prepare reports on crucial national security issues.
taken from http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashing … 901380.htm

Downing Street Memos

Also see: Ahmed Chalabi (or just google his name)

              Iraqi National Congress

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2006-09-22 01:00:54)

=JoD=Corithus
Member
+30|6559

Bubbalo wrote:

Actually, it's JSDF.  And they are an armed force, but not a military.  I'm wondering how anything I've said here is anti-Americanism, but okay.............

A breeze actually increases the effectiveness by carrying the weapon further.
No, sorry, but chemical weapons usually attest their lethality to the density of their specific particles in the air, once you have a factor diminishing those particle densities, say, wind, the deadliness of gas weapons drops very quickly.  And thanks to the geological shape of the Japanese islands, and the sustained high altitude winds of the jet stream, such weapons would quickly end up over the pacific, useless and diluted to insignificant levels. 
JDF, JSDF, what difference does the acronym make, in its vulerability to nuclear weapons?  Or are you, yet again, merely arguing for the sake of arguing? How does the fact that they are, "an armed force, but not a military", make any difference, what so ever? So, what, if I have a concentration of 500 tanks and apc's sitting in a complex outside a city, if I don't call that a military, but instead call it a "armed force"(kind of the same thing, eh?) they will magically be protected from a fucking nuclear fire ball? Do you have ANY sort of internal dialogue at all, or do you just type the first thing that pops into your  head, regardless of how ridiculous or off topic it may be?

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2024 Jeff Minard