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2006-09-08 15:42:17
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6737|Northern California

SMSgtDoc wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

I just wanted to compliment you on your excellent reading comprehension and your ass-backwards tunnel vision.  You're not worthy of discussing real things like this.  And you obviously have no clue what the constitution is or how to defend it.  That's sad.
Please by all means, educate this dumb ass service man on what you are trying to say.  Please explain to me where the constitution gives you the right to FORCE a change to this Tyrranical Government.  This is your chance, please enlighten me as to the ignorance of my ways.  Please pass along your great knowledge of our country's founding document.  I beg of you please let me bask in your brilliance!

Seriously though, do tell!
Ok, this document shows our country's views towards their tyrranical government at the time and it shows what our country did about it.  Go ahead, it's educational and may help you.  Take note of these words: But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security

Now, read this gem of a document which provides the bounds to be broken, warranting said "throwing off of such (a) government".  Take note of these words in number 2: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state.  This is the "how" you're looking for.

Yes, we'll go ahead and chalk this one up as a single unit of "pwnage" to the IRONCHEF.  And on a more reverrent note, it is seriously sad that you can't fathom this.  But then, none of the chickenhawks in this country can, that's why they let Bush destroy that goddamned piece of paper!

For future reference, don't call the bluff  like this.  It will only embarass you.
2006-09-08 15:42:43
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|6955|Wilmington, DE, US

usmarine2005 wrote:

PRiMACORD wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:

No,  You just didnt read.  He was talking about that one idiot who raped and burned a family.  You Fail.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle … 253160.stm


"The four eventually went to a house about 200 metres (yards) away and put the parents and their five-year old daughter in the bedroom, but kept the older girl in the living room"

"According to Mr Barker's statement, he and Mr Cortez took it in turns to rape or attempt to rape her."

"According to the testimony, Mr Green then also raped the girl and shot her dead.

Her body was doused in kerosene and set alight."

I fail? Stop trying.
I thought only one of them "lit the fuze" so to speak?
So if your squadmate was going to rape someone then set them on fire, you'd not take issue with it? I think you would.
2006-09-08 15:43:17
BEE_Grim_Reaper
Member
+15|6953|Germany
Well... I clearly recall, what was said about Sassam Hussein...

First it was alongside "Saddam is in league with Al-Quaeda and the 9/11 bombing"

Then, after it had come out, that Hussein and Bin-Laden could not stand each other it was along the lines
"Saddan has Weapons of Mass Destruction"... How did they know? Well... they kept the invoice receipts... The US were actually among the greatest suppliers for WMD's of the Iraq, knowing fully they would be used not only against Iran but also against Kurds (regardless of civilians being targets or not).

After the fiasco of not finding any trace whatsoever it was "We are here to liberate Iraq and bringing them Freedom and Democracy".... I wonder who asked the US to do that?

Now Iraq is decending into a state of Civil War (according to US officials)... Has it ever occurred to you, that not all humans and countries are suited for western ideals and thinking? Actually, Hussein has been the only stabilizing factor in a country that is now becoming a playground for Warlords... Great Job.

To those, who think, by being in Iraq their own country is being defended.... From what? When was actually the last time and Iraqi commited an act of aggression on US soil? Oh... and please refrain from quoting media propaganda... hard facts please. As far as I recall, the defence of ones Homeland begins at the 12 Mile zone.... anything beyond that is an act of aggression...

I do not blame the soldiers there... it is their fucking job to do what they are being told and they are getting paid for that. It was their own choice to become soldiers so they have to live with the consequences of their decision.... being sent somewhere to kill other people and being exposed to the risk of dieing... but hey... that's part of the job. You can't just say no... in regular companies, it would get you fired... here, it possibly gets you being fired upon.

But if someone thinks, governments care about soldiers, you are dead wrong... Soldiers are human resource and ultimately expendable... all measures to keep up morale are ultimately aimed at improving the effectiveness of the resource human.... all protective measures are ultimately aimed at improving the survivability as to insure the resource can be exploited as long as possible... Problem is, that this resource usually has family.... but as someone once said "The death of one is a tragedy... the death of millions is merely statistics"...

Oh by the way... I did not go to the military, I chose to serve in civil service as I think I serve my people better by helping them that way. My two grandfathers were in WW2 on the Eastern Front... One came home missing one leg and half of the foot of the other one, the other one had his back and head full of artillery grenade fragments that one with a metal detector would have thought, he was heavily armed.

You wonder, why I play a wargame? It helps be to relax, to vent any aggressions I might feel in an environment where I don't hurt anyone.
2006-09-08 15:43:21
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7009|d

usmarine2005 wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:


I never hear you crying about all the innocent people Saddam killed, or how many innocent people other dictators kill.  You just see one person make a mistake and run with it.  How many people get raped in this country everyday?  Why dont I hear anything form you about that?
WTF is wrong wth u , this has already been answered. go back to page two.

TO QUOTE CP:
"Saddam, an Iraqi, was murdering and abusing on his own turf. Each nation must take it upon themselves to liberate themselves, not wait about for some supposedly benevolent FOREIGN overseer. The debacle we see in Iraq today is the result of attempting to 'bring peace and freedom' to an Iraq that was not ready for such responsibilities. I'm for self-determination and winning your freedom and making a country of your own choosing. That is obviously at right angles to your viewpoint."
I wasnt talking to CP......read asswipe.
DO THE FACTS CHANGE WHEN YOU TALK TO SOMONE ELSE ? If a counter-argument has been produced, why are you avoiding it ? there is no need to swear, did you run out of words to use ?
2006-09-08 15:43:24
SMSgtDoc
Member
+0|6905

Ikarti wrote:

Question real fast. Why is it that even though IRONCHEF served as a marine that his difference in opinion negates the service he's done? So many are on here who "support the troops" and then one comes along and goes "Well I think this is bullshit" and suddenly he's a piece of shit. Even as one who doesn't support the military in any capacity, this just seems wrong and hypocritical.
I hope you are not referring to me.  I applaud anyone one that has served their country, especially as a Marine.  I don't like the talk of FORCING a change to our country's government.  Do I agree with our current administration, NO!  Do I think we should have gone into Iraq, NO!  Do I think we have our asses hanging out in the wind because we went into Iraq, sure do!  Maybe I took his comment about wanting a bunch of country's to pound our country and humble it the wrong way, or maybe I didn't.  All I know is, if people are pounding our country into submission that isn't a good thing for our military. 

There are two chances to make a regime change in this country, the first in about 2 months, the second in 2 years.  As far as I know, neither of those dates requires anyone to give their life to take action.  Implying that you are willing to give your live to change the government says one thing "revolution".  And that means that the US military would have to do something about it.

Other than that, Thank You IronChef for serving your country!
2006-09-08 15:45:16
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7008

Ikarti wrote:

So if your squadmate was going to rape someone then set them on fire, you'd not take issue with it? I think you would.
Yes.  They were all wrong.  I just remember the news talking about one of them, the worst offender so to speak.
2006-09-08 15:45:30
M1-Lightning
Jeepers Creepers
+136|6977|Peoria, Illinois

Ikarti wrote:

Question real fast. Why is it that even though IRONCHEF served as a marine that his difference in opinion negates the service he's done? So many are on here who "support the troops" and then one comes along and goes "Well I think this is bullshit" and suddenly he's a piece of shit. Even as one who doesn't support the military in any capacity, this just seems wrong and hypocritical.
Because anyone who whishes for a nuclear weapon to be used on thier country does not belong in the defense and security of said country.
2006-09-08 15:46:31
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|6955|Wilmington, DE, US

SMSgtDoc wrote:

Ikarti wrote:

Question real fast. Why is it that even though IRONCHEF served as a marine that his difference in opinion negates the service he's done? So many are on here who "support the troops" and then one comes along and goes "Well I think this is bullshit" and suddenly he's a piece of shit. Even as one who doesn't support the military in any capacity, this just seems wrong and hypocritical.
I hope you are not referring to me.  I applaud anyone one that has served their country, especially as a Marine.  I don't like the talk of FORCING a change to our country's government.  Do I agree with our current administration, NO!  Do I think we should have gone into Iraq, NO!  Do I think we have our asses hanging out in the wind because we went into Iraq, sure do!  Maybe I took his comment about wanting a bunch of country's to pound our country and humble it the wrong way, or maybe I didn't.  All I know is, if people are pounding our country into submission that isn't a good thing for our military. 

There are two chances to make a regime change in this country, the first in about 2 months, the second in 2 years.  As far as I know, neither of those dates requires anyone to give their life to take action.  Implying that you are willing to give your live to change the government says one thing "revolution".  And that means that the US military would have to do something about it.

Other than that, Thank You IronChef for serving your country!
Wasn't towards you or anyone in particular. I've just noticed a lot of times when someone says something with more of a liberal/left/non-right slant to it regarding the war, it's countered with "Well have YOU ever served in the military," and when they get a reply of yes, it's as if their service doesn't matter anyway.
2006-09-08 15:46:52
imortal
Member
+240|6911|Austin, TX

Ikarti wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:

PRiMACORD wrote:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle … 253160.stm


"The four eventually went to a house about 200 metres (yards) away and put the parents and their five-year old daughter in the bedroom, but kept the older girl in the living room"

"According to Mr Barker's statement, he and Mr Cortez took it in turns to rape or attempt to rape her."

"According to the testimony, Mr Green then also raped the girl and shot her dead.

Her body was doused in kerosene and set alight."

I fail? Stop trying.
I thought only one of them "lit the fuze" so to speak?
So if your squadmate was going to rape someone then set them on fire, you'd not take issue with it? I think you would.
Okay, bad things have happened.  Granted.  The question is, just how prevailant do you think this is in the United States military?  From the tones of your responses, it seems that you feel that this behavior is the rule rather than the exception.  Am I correct, or were you merely exagerating to prove some point?  If so, let me know.
2006-09-08 15:46:59
d3v1ldr1v3r13
Satan's disciple on Earth.
+160|6931|Hell's prison
Cameron, Just shut up, quit being a liberal little bitch.  All your wannabe big shot political talk is really stupid alot like yourself, so go fuck yourself with your so called "fair and balanced" and quit trying to justify the war in Iraq.  I been over there twice and until your get your skinny white ass and put it on the line for something that means something to you, I dont even think you know what it means to fight for something you believe in.
2006-09-08 15:47:47
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|6955|Wilmington, DE, US

d3v1ldr1v3r13 wrote:

Cameron, Just shut up, quit being a liberal little bitch.  All your wannabe big shot political talk is really stupid alot like yourself, so go fuck yourself with your so called "fair and balanced" and quit trying to justify the war in Iraq.  I been over there twice and until your get your skinny white ass and put it on the line for something that means something to you, I dont even think you know what it means to fight for something you believe in.
Who has the skinnier white ass, you or him?
2006-09-08 15:48:04
the_hitman_kills
Agent 47 wannabe
+32|6711|Inside my APC

Ikarti wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:

PRiMACORD wrote:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle … 253160.stm


"The four eventually went to a house about 200 metres (yards) away and put the parents and their five-year old daughter in the bedroom, but kept the older girl in the living room"

"According to Mr Barker's statement, he and Mr Cortez took it in turns to rape or attempt to rape her."

"According to the testimony, Mr Green then also raped the girl and shot her dead.

Her body was doused in kerosene and set alight."

I fail? Stop trying.
I thought only one of them "lit the fuze" so to speak?
So if your squadmate was going to rape someone then set them on fire, you'd not take issue with it? I think you would.
if they are guilty i think they should hang. its sickening what they did, war or no war.
2006-09-08 15:50:01
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7009|d

d3v1ldr1v3r13 wrote:

Cameron, Just shut up, quit being a liberal little bitch.  All your wannabe big shot political talk is really stupid alot like yourself, so go fuck yourself with your so called "fair and balanced" and quit trying to justify the war in Iraq.  I been over there twice and until your get your skinny white ass and put it on the line for something that means something to you, I dont even think you know what it means to fight for something you believe in.
"Debate and serious talk"
NO CLICK
OK ?
2006-09-08 15:50:19
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6737|Northern California

usmarine2005 wrote:

Ikarti wrote:

Question real fast. Why is it that even though IRONCHEF served as a marine that his difference in opinion negates the service he's done? So many are on here who "support the troops" and then one comes along and goes "Well I think this is bullshit" and suddenly he's a piece of shit. Even as one who doesn't support the military in any capacity, this just seems wrong and hypocritical.
I just wish everyone in this country would realize one thing.  If it wasn't for people in the military most of you wouldn't have much freedom.  Let me explain.  It is an all volunteer military right?  Which means if people didn't volunteer YOU would be drafted.  So instead of stopping at Starbucks on the way to work, you would be humping a 120lb pack 25 miles in the desert.  So yes, you should support them. 

Or you would have dodged the draft, who knows.
I believe military service should be compulsory like it is in many other countries.  THis is the best homeland security that could be available.

And I agree, the people here who are somehow blaming the soldiers for Iraq should be ignored because it's actually off topic, and it's complete BS.  I'd like to see a news article that shows soldiers who patrol neighborhoods and bridges going into neighborhoods with a batch of cookies their wife sent them and share those cookies with kids and their families.  I know a pfc who did that...but the raping and burning of that iraqi girl matter more somehow.  This is what embarasses me as an American...our insatiable appetite for carnage, gore, violence, and sensationalism.
2006-09-08 15:51:28
dubbs
Member
+105|6878|Lexington, KY

DBBrinson1 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5328592.stm

"Saddam Hussein was distrustful of al-Qaeda and viewed Islamic extremists as a threat to his regime, refusing all requests from al-Qaeda to provide material or operational support" - US Senate Report

Whaddaya know? The blatantly obvious to any reasonable logical thinker has been officially stated by the US Senate! Please do not use this lame excuse for war in Iraq AGAIN. /transmission over
Bah.. This is old recycled news.  It first broke over 2 years ago in 2004 contained in the 911 commission report.  Yet another example of the left wing media trying to smear.

I don't think Bush ever used an Al Qaeda - Saddam link as a reason for war.  After the war, Al Qaeda and the Taliban went to Iraq.
Sorry you are wrong.  The 9/11 report said that there were some ties.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/p … 4tdeij.asp
2006-09-08 15:52:26
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6737|Northern California

d3v1ldr1v3r13 wrote:

Cameron, Just shut up, quit being a liberal little bitch.  All your wannabe big shot political talk is really stupid alot like yourself, so go fuck yourself with your so called "fair and balanced" and quit trying to justify the war in Iraq.  I been over there twice and until your get your skinny white ass and put it on the line for something that means something to you, I dont even think you know what it means to fight for something you believe in.
Ouch.  I'm gonna call bullshit on you dude.  Also, Poe is probably one of the most articulate and intelligent sounding posters in this forum so I wouldn't call him stupid.  He could own your shit with a jedi mind trick in like 3 seconds dude.
2006-09-08 15:53:53
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|6955|Wilmington, DE, US

imortal wrote:

Ikarti wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:


I thought only one of them "lit the fuze" so to speak?
So if your squadmate was going to rape someone then set them on fire, you'd not take issue with it? I think you would.
Okay, bad things have happened.  Granted.  The question is, just how prevailant do you think this is in the United States military?  From the tones of your responses, it seems that you feel that this behavior is the rule rather than the exception.  Am I correct, or were you merely exagerating to prove some point?  If so, let me know.
OK, to sum up how I feel: I feel as though standards have been lowered for military recruitment since not many people want to go. This has been demonstrated to me by actions in Iraq. What troubles me as well is the apperance of silent acceptance and support of many of the actions, which is comparable to the argument of Muslims silently supporting bin Laden. Do I exaggerate? Yes, because this shit really pisses me off. Maybe it's partially because of a sense of betrayal you know? The willingness to sacrifice yourself for a country or something greater than oneself is very admirable, and in America, we're raised as "soldiers are the good guys." The good guys kept doing bad things far more than I ever expected, and also got attitudes with me that excused the actions of others who did those things. I just got tired of it. I can't support anything like that anymore
2006-09-08 15:54:13
the_hitman_kills
Agent 47 wannabe
+32|6711|Inside my APC

dubbs wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5328592.stm

"Saddam Hussein was distrustful of al-Qaeda and viewed Islamic extremists as a threat to his regime, refusing all requests from al-Qaeda to provide material or operational support" - US Senate Report

Whaddaya know? The blatantly obvious to any reasonable logical thinker has been officially stated by the US Senate! Please do not use this lame excuse for war in Iraq AGAIN. /transmission over
Bah.. This is old recycled news.  It first broke over 2 years ago in 2004 contained in the 911 commission report.  Yet another example of the left wing media trying to smear.

I don't think Bush ever used an Al Qaeda - Saddam link as a reason for war.  After the war, Al Qaeda and the Taliban went to Iraq.
Sorry you are wrong.  The 9/11 report said that there were some ties.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/p … 4tdeij.asp
that looks like an old report:07/22/2004
2006-09-08 15:55:15
arson
Member
+99|6883|New York
Looks like we got the wrong guy. Don't get me wrong Sadam is a very bad man who has killed alot of innocent people, but the man we really need to get is  Bin Laden.
2006-09-08 15:55:30
Chou
Member
+737|7037
GWB should be prosecuted after his presidency
2006-09-08 15:56:02
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6801

d3v1ldr1v3r13 wrote:

Cameron, Just shut up, quit being a liberal little bitch.  All your wannabe big shot political talk is really stupid alot like yourself, so go fuck yourself with your so called "fair and balanced" and quit trying to justify the war in Iraq.  I been over there twice and until your get your skinny white ass and put it on the line for something that means something to you, I dont even think you know what it means to fight for something you believe in.
LOL. Congratulations big man. You've been to Iraq twice. You must have a really big cock.

I know that it is THE JOB of every member of the US armed forces to FOLLOW ORDERS. I don't take issue with that. However, one CAN disagree with the orders you've been given whilst steadfastly carrying out said orders.
What do you believe in pray tell? WMD in Iraq? Israeli security? Ethnic violence? Saddam-supported Al Qaeda operations? You've been lied to buddy. Wake up and smell the coffee. I'll fight for a cause that means enough to me, a cause that is just and righteous, and it won't be at the behest of anyone else. How did you put your ass 'on the line' for 'something that means something to [me]'? You aren't even putting your ass on the line in the best interests of the US citizens back home.
2006-09-08 15:56:20
the_hitman_kills
Agent 47 wannabe
+32|6711|Inside my APC

arson wrote:

Looks like we got the wrong guy. Don't get me wrong Sadam is a very bad man who has killed alot of innocent people, but the man we really need to get is  Bin Laden.
isn't he dead yet?

he has so many health problems (kidneys i think?)
2006-09-08 15:58:51
SMSgtDoc
Member
+0|6905

IRONCHEF wrote:

Ok, this document shows our country's views towards their tyrranical government at the time and it shows what our country did about it.  Go ahead, it's educational and may help you.  Take note of these words: But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security

Now, read this gem of a document which provides the bounds to be broken, warranting said "throwing off of such (a) government".  Take note of these words in number 2: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state.  This is the "how" you're looking for.

Yes, we'll go ahead and chalk this one up as a single unit of "pwnage" to the IRONCHEF.  And on a more reverrent note, it is seriously sad that you can't fathom this.  But then, none of the chickenhawks in this country can, that's why they let Bush destroy that goddamned piece of paper!

For future reference, don't call the bluff  like this.  It will only embarass you.
So you are going to use the constitution as your justification to mount a rebellion against the government that was created and evolved from the constitution.  Very nice!  I'll tell you what is really sad, the fact that you have distorted the constitution to somehow make it ok in your mind that you can overthrow the republic.  That my friend is very Ted Kazinski like.  But hey by all means, please go ahead and bask in your impression of my pwnage if it makes you feel better.  Like I said in a post above, I think the current situation we are in sucks, but I believe we live in a great country and enjoy many freedoms that will never be known anywhere else in the world.  Please feel free to overthrow the republic at any time, I will be waiting for you.

Oh, I'm not really embarassed, because I don't think you really mad a point for forcefully overthrowing our government.  But I will be waiting for it, and you if you ever give it a try.
2006-09-08 16:01:31
imortal
Member
+240|6911|Austin, TX

IRONCHEF wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:

Ikarti wrote:

Question real fast. Why is it that even though IRONCHEF served as a marine that his difference in opinion negates the service he's done? So many are on here who "support the troops" and then one comes along and goes "Well I think this is bullshit" and suddenly he's a piece of shit. Even as one who doesn't support the military in any capacity, this just seems wrong and hypocritical.
I just wish everyone in this country would realize one thing.  If it wasn't for people in the military most of you wouldn't have much freedom.  Let me explain.  It is an all volunteer military right?  Which means if people didn't volunteer YOU would be drafted.  So instead of stopping at Starbucks on the way to work, you would be humping a 120lb pack 25 miles in the desert.  So yes, you should support them. 

Or you would have dodged the draft, who knows.
I believe military service should be compulsory like it is in many other countries.  THis is the best homeland security that could be available.

And I agree, the people here who are somehow blaming the soldiers for Iraq should be ignored because it's actually off topic, and it's complete BS.  I'd like to see a news article that shows soldiers who patrol neighborhoods and bridges going into neighborhoods with a batch of cookies their wife sent them and share those cookies with kids and their families.  I know a pfc who did that...but the raping and burning of that iraqi girl matter more somehow.  This is what embarasses me as an American...our insatiable appetite for carnage, gore, violence, and sensationalism.
IRONCHEF, I find myself agreeing with you on this point.  You do not hear the stories of soldiers guarding kids going to school so their own people will not kidnap them and sell them into slavery.  You do not hear the stories of the US military rebuilding Iraqi schools and hospitals.  You do not hear the stories of Iraqis rising up, risking their own lives to bring criminals to justice in their own society.  Or of one man I met there, who was picked up in a raid of a suspected meeting point for terrorists.  He sat in our jail for three weeks, while we were working out his disposition.  At the end of the three weeks, he was released and hired by our battalion as a local translator.

You hear the stories of the US military reviewing the newspapers in Iraq, but you aren't told that the Iraqis have no history with newspapers printing the truth.  They thought that you printed whatever you wanted.  US Army PsyOps printed a newspaper in 2003 of the weekly activities in Iraq between Iraqis and US troops.  Good stories were printed in Arabic.  Bad stories were printed in Arabic and in English, so that US troops whould hear some of the news that may be upsetting Iraqis.  When we asked our local translators what they thought of the paper, they felt it was ok, but there was a lot of bad stuff with the good stuff in the paper.  When we told them that was because everything in the paper is stuff that actually happened, they just looked at us, uncomprehending.  For years, the media in Iraq, and in most of the middle east, is ruthlessly controlled by their goverments, and only 'state approved' news made it into the social awareness.   

Sorry, talk about off on a tangent!
2006-09-08 16:04:55
Janysc
Member
+59|6929|Norway
I'm so sick and utterly tired of American nationalists who will not listen and who will not discuss because they've been brainwashed into believing that their standpoints can not be discussed because they are "right". When people want to put the US's actions under debate, the brainwashed's only defenses are bad attempts to discredit them. Open your eyes and become more than a rerun of the collapsing British Empire.

I wonder when I'll hear American children say to people like CameronPoe, "You're a thought criminal." I fear that day is not far away...

 

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