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2006-09-04 06:41:50
JimmyBotswana
Member
+82|6835|Montreal
"Will fascism ever come to America? Yes, but it will be called anti-fascism." -Huey Long

This is a pertinent quote because the Bush administration is currently framing the current war on terror as a fight against islamo-fascism. But is this depiction of Osama and his ilk as fascists accurate? What exactly is fascism? And is this new claim that America is fighting against fascism in the middle east a sign that fascism has arrived in America under the guise of anti-fascism, as Huey Long predicted?

To get involved in this debate, please read these two short articles:

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0828-23.htm

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1128-24.htm

And discuss.......

Personally I think that Bush authorizing illegal wiretaps of millions of Americans, thereby declaring himself above the first and fourth amendment and thus above the law, is by definition a dictatorship, though a dictatorship is not necessarily fascist as the two articles discuss.

Also, Bush's signing statements are a huge threat to the constitution and to the republic. From the aforementioned article on the signing statements: "Legal scholars say the scope and aggression of Bush's assertions that he can bypass laws represent a concerted effort to expand his power at the expense of Congress, upsetting the balance between the branches of government."

So, who are the real fascists? Bush? Al-Qaeda? Or neither?

Last edited by JimmyBotswana (2006-09-04 07:02:07)

2006-09-04 07:03:06
X3M*Selkie
Member
+13|6826|Belgium
The fasism ideology has nothing to do with religian fundamentalism, allthough both have their links into politics and religian.
Personally I believe that both the countries that harbor muslim fundamentalism and the Bush administration (and others) are guilty to large scale manipulation. Mostly done by setups and covert ops combined with misleading information (manipulation of the media).
Under certain circumstances people acts as a pack and blindy follow a person, without evaluating or thinking through what they have heard or seen; Mass-manipulation.
'If you wanna beat a dog, you always find a stick' and 'In love and at war, all means are allowed' are probably appropriate to express how these administrations act, totally ignarant of the laws and well-being of the general public. They all have hidden agenda's

If you have the luxuary to speak multiple languages, travel to multiple continents and countries, watch TV broadcast from all over the world via satellite you will discover multiple angles at the same problems,
Interpreting it all in an objective way is the key.

Last edited by X3M*Selkie (2006-09-04 07:04:02)

2006-09-04 07:36:30
jonsimon
Member
+224|6744
Illegal wiretapping certainly falls under the bill for fascism. As well as the recent removal of due process in deportation and the almost racist descrimination against arabic people for 'security'.
2006-09-04 11:01:08
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6939|Tampa Bay Florida
It's no big deal if they completely ignore the 4th amendment, but if they even suggest regulating weapons sales and usage, it violates the 2nd amendment, and it's a crime and they're unAmerican.
2006-09-04 11:11:27
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7086
you guys gotta find another topic for your efforts or you will lead very unhappy lives
2006-09-04 13:13:40
JimmyBotswana
Member
+82|6835|Montreal

Spearhead wrote:

It's no big deal if they completely ignore the 4th amendment
I really hope that is some kind of sarcasm I can't detect.
2006-09-04 13:23:28
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6939|Tampa Bay Florida

JimmyBotswana wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

It's no big deal if they completely ignore the 4th amendment
I really hope that is some kind of sarcasm I can't detect.
Yes, it is.  Read the rest of my post and you'll probably detect it
2006-09-04 15:00:23
JimmyBotswana
Member
+82|6835|Montreal
Ah I see it now.
2006-09-04 15:11:06
Phantom2828
Member
+51|6777|Land of the free

jonsimon wrote:

Illegal wiretapping certainly falls under the bill for fascism. As well as the recent removal of due process in deportation and the almost racist descrimination against arabic people for 'security'.
Why is wiretapping calls to and from know terrorists bad it can prevent alot of attacks. Their not just tapping all phones they arnt going to tap joe schmos phone. Its not illegal because the president is allowed certain abilitys in a time of crisis. And what is wrong with profileing I dont think it was white norweigins that flew planes into our buildings and killed 3000 of our own. If we went to durka durka stan and killed 3000 of them in a suicidal attack you bet your ass they are going to profile the hell out of you if even let you in the country.
2006-09-04 15:14:14
JimmyBotswana
Member
+82|6835|Montreal

Phantom2828 wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

Illegal wiretapping certainly falls under the bill for fascism. As well as the recent removal of due process in deportation and the almost racist descrimination against arabic people for 'security'.
Why is wiretapping calls to and from know terrorists bad it can prevent alot of attacks. Their not just tapping all phones they arnt going to tap joe schmos phone. Its not illegal because the president is allowed certain abilitys in a time of crisis. And what is wrong with profileing I dont think it was white norweigins that flew planes into our buildings and killed 3000 of our own. If we went to durka durka stan and killed 3000 of them in a suicidal attack you bet your ass they are going to profile the hell out of you if even let you in the country.
Actually they are wiretapping millions of Joe Schmoes that's why so many people are upset about it.
2006-09-04 16:29:06
Phantom2828
Member
+51|6777|Land of the free

JimmyBotswana wrote:

Phantom2828 wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

Illegal wiretapping certainly falls under the bill for fascism. As well as the recent removal of due process in deportation and the almost racist descrimination against arabic people for 'security'.
Why is wiretapping calls to and from know terrorists bad it can prevent alot of attacks. Their not just tapping all phones they arnt going to tap joe schmos phone. Its not illegal because the president is allowed certain abilitys in a time of crisis. And what is wrong with profileing I dont think it was white norweigins that flew planes into our buildings and killed 3000 of our own. If we went to durka durka stan and killed 3000 of them in a suicidal attack you bet your ass they are going to profile the hell out of you if even let you in the country.
Actually they are wiretapping millions of Joe Schmoes that's why so many people are upset about it.
Hmm and why the would I care if I am being tapped if it can save 1000's of lives. Wheres your response to the rest of my post.
2006-09-04 16:45:04
The_Fighting_69th
Combat medic
+6|7002

Phantom2828 wrote:

JimmyBotswana wrote:

Phantom2828 wrote:


Why is wiretapping calls to and from know terrorists bad it can prevent alot of attacks. Their not just tapping all phones they arnt going to tap joe schmos phone. Its not illegal because the president is allowed certain abilitys in a time of crisis. And what is wrong with profileing I dont think it was white norweigins that flew planes into our buildings and killed 3000 of our own. If we went to durka durka stan and killed 3000 of them in a suicidal attack you bet your ass they are going to profile the hell out of you if even let you in the country.
Actually they are wiretapping millions of Joe Schmoes that's why so many people are upset about it.
Hmm and why the would I care if I am being tapped if it can save 1000's of lives. Wheres your response to the rest of my post.
becuase next it could be people with red hair they take away, or maybe people named bill...

It's just one more step down the slippery slope.  We made a constitution for a reason and it cannot be bypassed.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

-- Ben Franklin
2006-09-04 16:47:53
Phantom2828
Member
+51|6777|Land of the free

The_Fighting_69th wrote:

Phantom2828 wrote:

JimmyBotswana wrote:


Actually they are wiretapping millions of Joe Schmoes that's why so many people are upset about it.
Hmm and why the would I care if I am being tapped if it can save 1000's of lives. Wheres your response to the rest of my post.
becuase next it could be people with red hair they take away, or maybe people named bill...

It's just one more step down the slippery slope.  We made a constitution for a reason and it cannot be bypassed.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

-- Ben Franklin
Yeah I seen that quote I like it, but people dont understand that the president is granted special abilitys in a war time situation to protect the people. Would you rather be dead or have your phone tapped. Check out that cartoon people in a building saying we are against phone taps then a plane comes at them and they say no wait I'm for them!
2006-09-04 17:00:04
The_Fighting_69th
Combat medic
+6|7002
true, however even the president CANNOT bypass the US Constitution.

What I want to know is why they need more power to tap phones, they can do it already (and even get the warrent to do so 72 hours after the fact)  All they want to do is bypass checks and balances, there is NO good reason for it. 

Yes they can tap my phone if they have cause and a warrent.
2006-09-04 17:03:06
Miller
IT'S MILLER TIME!
+271|7005|United States of America

The_Fighting_69th wrote:

true, however even the president CANNOT bypass the US Constitution.

What I want to know is why they need more power to tap phones, they can do it already (and even get the warrent to do so 72 hours after the fact)  All they want to do is bypass checks and balances, there is NO good reason for it. 

Yes they can tap my phone if they have cause and a warrent.
They should need no warrent to tap your phone.  As we have been told, they aren't taking personnal info. They are looking for paterns related to terrorism.  I want them to keep tapping.  If it helps with the safety of the world, but mostly the people of the USA. Do it.  You'll have to give up personnal freedoms in many things you do, you already have.  So don't complain when the government is actually trying to help keep you safe.
2006-09-04 17:11:18
The_Fighting_69th
Combat medic
+6|7002
I'm sorry that I actually support he way the US is SUPPOSED to work. 

Checks and balances, look it up.  it's there for a reason.

Seems that if the government says jump, everyone askes "how high?".  If we let them do whatever they want and ignore the Constitution and Bill of Rights, the US will become nothing more than another dictatorship.
2006-09-04 17:14:50
JimmyBotswana
Member
+82|6835|Montreal
It isn't to help keep you safe it is to control as much of society as possible. That is dictatorship. Why do you believe that if the government DOESN'T tap your phone you are going to die? It doesn't make any sense I want them you listen to my phone calls so that I don't die. As stated earlier if they have made a connection to terrorism they can tap the phone right away and only get the warrant 72 hours later. Unwarranted wiretaps serve no purpose other than to render useless the first and fourth amendments to the constitution and bring the country closer to fascism.
2006-09-04 17:18:59
JimmyBotswana
Member
+82|6835|Montreal

Phantom2828 wrote:

Yeah I seen that quote I like it, but people dont understand that the president is granted special abilitys in a war time situation to protect the people. Would you rather be dead or have your phone tapped. Check out that cartoon people in a building saying we are against phone taps then a plane comes at them and they say no wait I'm for them!
Hitler was granted special powers during a time of crisis too. So was Senator Palpatine Are you saying that it is justifiable to ignore the constitution because of terrorism? We didn't ignore the constitution during the cold war, why are terrorists more dangerous than the USSR?
2006-09-04 19:10:21
Sorcerer0513
Member
+18|6791|Outer Space

Phantom2828 wrote:

Yeah I seen that quote I like it, but people dont understand that the president is granted special abilitys in a war time situation to protect the people. Would you rather be dead or have your phone tapped. Check out that cartoon people in a building saying we are against phone taps then a plane comes at them and they say no wait I'm for them!
Where does it stop then? Did you read that article where your government also tracked money transfers(Here) without warrants? And also, does ECHELON ring any bells?

I don't know, maybe it's just me being paranoid. But what if, for example you were an owner of a small company. And you had a big competitor, trying to take over your company or ruin it, whatever comes first. A competitor, that made some big donations to the ruling party. Like good old Kenny boy, or some of Dick's friends. You don't find it remotely possible that the information gathered by tapping your phones, tracking your money transfers and monitoring your Internet traffic would be useful to your competitor(like, who are you doing business with, what financial state are you in, etc.)?

Alas, I am no business expert, but in my view, information is power. And if you look at the example above, they have all the information they need.

Now, before you argue that by tapping phones, tracking money transfers etc. they prevented further terrorist attacks, sure they did. But they could do that with a warrant from FISA too, and no one would have a problem with it. FBI demonstrated, that they don't need warrant-less wiretaps(can't find source now, but the FBI apparently quite easily obtained a warrant from the FISA court, and apprehended severals terror suspects based on that). Now, I don't live in the States, but from what I hear, getting a warrant from FISA court is fairly easy.

You asked whether I would rather be dead or have my phone tapped? Well, let me put it this way: The day our government starts tapping phones without a warrant is the day when I start planning the overthrowing of the government, one way or another. Or move to another country.

But then again, I'm just another fool posting rubbish on an Internet forum(gaming forum at that).
2006-09-04 19:36:11
Phantom2828
Member
+51|6777|Land of the free

JimmyBotswana wrote:

It isn't to help keep you safe it is to control as much of society as possible. That is dictatorship. Why do you believe that if the government DOESN'T tap your phone you are going to die? It doesn't make any sense I want them you listen to my phone calls so that I don't die. As stated earlier if they have made a connection to terrorism they can tap the phone right away and only get the warrant 72 hours later. Unwarranted wiretaps serve no purpose other than to render useless the first and fourth amendments to the constitution and bring the country closer to fascism.
Ok yeah ok you keep thinking that mr parinoid guy. I dont think that if we dont tap phones I personaly will die, if we dont tap phones their is a good chance that somone will that is not acceptable. I dont know exactly how warrents work put basicly if you have to get a warrent everytime dont even both to slow.
2006-09-04 19:41:14
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|6934|United States of America
Normally, people get flamed for posting biased links and articles...
2006-09-04 19:45:30
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|6985|Salt Lake City

Phantom2828 wrote:

JimmyBotswana wrote:

It isn't to help keep you safe it is to control as much of society as possible. That is dictatorship. Why do you believe that if the government DOESN'T tap your phone you are going to die? It doesn't make any sense I want them you listen to my phone calls so that I don't die. As stated earlier if they have made a connection to terrorism they can tap the phone right away and only get the warrant 72 hours later. Unwarranted wiretaps serve no purpose other than to render useless the first and fourth amendments to the constitution and bring the country closer to fascism.
Ok yeah ok you keep thinking that mr parinoid guy. I dont think that if we dont tap phones I personaly will die, if we dont tap phones their is a good chance that somone will that is not acceptable. I dont know exactly how warrents work put basicly if you have to get a warrent everytime dont even both to slow.
You are the very reason that our freedoms will die!!  As long as I am safe, all is well.  It does matter that I had to give up all personal freedoms.  It doesn't matter that big brother is watching...I have nothing to hide, spy on BIG BROTHER!!!!.

What part of this don't you dumb ass fuckers understand.  Once we give up those freedoms, they are never returned.  Do I need to quote that often over-quoted Ben Franklin bit?
2006-09-04 19:50:28
=SA=VaSSiLi
Member
+2|7020
JimmyBotswanna, you are my hero.

All you have to do is watch maybe .. Episode 2 and 3 of Star Wars to see the direction things like this can move in.  The leaders of the countries get "emergency powers" to "protect" the country.  But once the threat is gone, these people do not want to let go of their emergency powers.  And where is the line drawn with their emergency powers.  Sure you dont mind phone taps, because they seem so harmless, but do you want a secret service operative standing over your shoulder while you sit in your home with your family eating dinner?  Granted its not that drastic yet but whats to stop them?
2006-09-04 19:50:35
JimmyBotswana
Member
+82|6835|Montreal

Phantom2828 wrote:

Ok yeah ok you keep thinking that mr parinoid guy. I dont think that if we dont tap phones I personaly will die, if we dont tap phones their is a good chance that somone will that is not acceptable. I dont know exactly how warrents work put basicly if you have to get a warrent everytime dont even both to slow.
Were you drunk when you wrote this? I hope English is not your first language, and if it is I hope you are not older than 9.

Yes you can tap phones to apprehend terrorists no one here is saying that you shouldn't try to listen to the terrorists' conversations. You can track the terrorists while remaining within the boundaries of the law and showing probable cause as to why you decided to tap their phone (e.g: they were seen with a known terrorist/buying supplies for explosives.) You can even tap the phone the instant you need to, you just need to show your reasons for doing so within 72 hours of doing it, which the FBI has said is not an incumbrence to tracking terrorists. What is wrong is spying on everyone, drawing a huge net over society's phone calls and seeing what you find. That is tyranny, and even if the government is not listening to my phone calls, I reject it on principle. It is an affront to liberty and democracy. "You cannot protect freedom abroad by abandoning it at home." -Edward R. Murrow
2006-09-04 20:00:04
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6900|USA

The_Fighting_69th wrote:

Phantom2828 wrote:

JimmyBotswana wrote:


Actually they are wiretapping millions of Joe Schmoes that's why so many people are upset about it.
Hmm and why the would I care if I am being tapped if it can save 1000's of lives. Wheres your response to the rest of my post.
becuase next it could be people with red hair they take away, or maybe people named bill...

It's just one more step down the slippery slope.  We made a constitution for a reason and it cannot be bypassed.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

-- Ben Franklin
"People that care about the government wiretapping for terrorists, more than saving innocent lives are dumb asses"
--Lowing

Oh i know it doesn't sound like much now,  but give it a hundred years and it will catch on.

 

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