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unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,939|5896|USA

A "zero covid" strategy should push for that primarily from the direction of ongoing vaccine and medication development, in addition to an overwhelming vaccination rate.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+511|2844
We need to learn to live with COVID. Eventually the unvaccinated problem will work itself out.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+426|2577

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

A "zero covid" strategy should push for that primarily from the direction of ongoing vaccine and medication development, in addition to an overwhelming vaccination rate.
zero covid is impossible. it's like talking about zero flu or zero common cold. imagine making people stay at home for 245 days or closing 40% of all the small businesses in your city because the common cold was spiking. it's insane.

we have treatments for covid that measurably mitigate against serious illness and death. closing borders and forcing people to stay at home is a medieval solution to a 2020 problem.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,757|5230|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

zero covid is impossible. it's like talking about zero flu or zero common cold. imagine making people stay at home for 245 days or closing 40% of all the small businesses in your city because the common cold was spiking. it's insane.
Well we have zero black death, zero ebola, zero smallpox etc. Perhaps we should just have 'learned to live with' leprosy

we have treatments for covid that measurably mitigate against serious illness and death. closing borders and forcing people to stay at home is a medieval solution to a 2020 problem.
Medieval solutions worked.

This whole covid thing could have been completely avoided. Why are you obsessed with pointless travel?
Birds Aren't Real
uziq
Member
+426|2577
the black death didn't disappear because of lockdowns. hahahahha. it effectively burned itself out because it was too good at killing people, from a transmissibility point of view. it didn't disappear before killing off a THIRD of europe's total population, irregardless of city-scale quarantines. derp.

ebola is in a similar category. it kills too effectively and too quickly to pose a serious threat of contagion. we would basically have to link arms and form a human chain from west africa to europe in order for ebola to spread so widely. it didn't disappear because of 'lockdowns' or travel bans. ebola, in all but the most exceptional of cases, kills too fast for long-distance flights; you'd have to be infected very, very shortly before boarding a plane, before you die. if it was transmissible, it would have seeded throughout west africa, which certainly didn't (and couldn't) enforce lockdowns. do you think lagos could have contained an outbreak of ebola if it was comparable to covid? derp.

smallpox is not even comparable to a coronavirus-type illness. you're comparing apples and oranges. it was an extremely stable virus that was essentially patched by a vaccine. we didn’t enforce global or continent-wide lockdowns because smallpox was out there, did we? were people prevented from flying to the united states because they had a smallpox outbreak? didn’t we, uh, basically learn to live with it? derp.

and, erm, we did ... learn to ... live with leprosy? it was tolerated as part of the general population, with 'social distancing' measures, until a scientific cure became available. certainly never any lockdowns or curtailments of life for the general population. lepers had to 'self-isolate'; cities didn't close down. derp.

might i add that ‘medieval’ thinking didn’t even have a germ theory of disease? we isolated people or communities because we thought they were ‘damned’ by god or were living in a ‘miasmatic air’ or something. not exactly instructive. quarantines in italian city states circa 1470 might have mitigated deaths but they certainly didn’t solve or eradicate anything. people thought putting herbs under your nose was an effective protection in those days. what are you going to advocate for next? crushed rhino horn for hair loss? a bunch of garlic to ward off vampires?

LOL. an amazing selection of comparisons there. A+. literally none of those diseases were eradicated by lockdowns or social controls.

why are you obsessed with travel? it can be done in a safe manner. you seem to think putting planes on the ground is going to eliminate an highly infectious disease. even NZ, a world-leading example of 'zero covid', has admitted that harsh lockdowns are not working against the delta variant. they’ve had a ban on ‘frivolous travel’ for 18 months. it’s almost as if what i’ve been saying about living in a global system makes zero covid/total lockdowns infeasible!

all you can say in response is 'b-b-b-b-but, if we had just found patient zero and put them in a box, we could have avoided this whole thing'. it's tantamount to childish wish-fulfillment. we all wish we could have found the first ever HIV carrier too, dilbert.

Last edited by uziq (2021-10-14 18:59:54)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,757|5230|eXtreme to the maX
Yes, lepers were just allowed to wander in the community, they weren't isolated at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leper_colony

Completely impossible for Ebola to travel unless people link arms in a chain
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … tch-ebola/

Its as if you have no idea of what you're talking about.

Cutting travel would have prevented this pandemic, we knew it and did nothing.
Birds Aren't Real
uziq
Member
+426|2577
i literally said lepers 'self-isolated' and were effectively 'socially distanced'. i'm sure you have an extremely nuanced understanding of leprosy. and, again, leprosy was not eradicated by lockdowns and closed borders. leprosy was eradicated by a VACCINE. until then, we PRECISELY 'lived with it'. people in the time of jesus or charlemagne didn't exactly have a grip on curing infectious diseases.

ebola has a low transmissibility compared to covid. you have to come into contact with the fluids of an infected person. said infected person dies very quickly after contracting the disease, which closes the potential window of infection also. there's a reason ebola cases only number in the low dozens in western countries. it cannot travel very effectively. ebola-struck african nations don't exactly have the infrastructure or public services necessary to enforce strict lockdowns. if it could travel as easily as covid, it would have done so a long, long time ago.

Last edited by uziq (2021-10-14 21:34:55)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,757|5230|eXtreme to the maX
Lepers were isolated on islands you dunce, not just told to stay 1.5m away from people if possible.
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unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,939|5896|USA

I can't believe the turn this has taken. "Medieval solutions worked." I can't even start on that.

Fighting it with vaccines and modern medicine: thumbs up.

Exsanguination, trepanation, locking your population up in a filthy town: thumbs down.

Let us know what the chicken entrails tell you though, dilbert.

uziq wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

A "zero covid" strategy should push for that primarily from the direction of ongoing vaccine and medication development, in addition to an overwhelming vaccination rate.
zero covid is impossible. it's like talking about zero flu or zero common cold. imagine making people stay at home for 245 days or closing 40% of all the small businesses in your city because the common cold was spiking. it's insane.

we have treatments for covid that measurably mitigate against serious illness and death. closing borders and forcing people to stay at home is a medieval solution to a 2020 problem.
That's rather my point, as close as we're going to get with current technology. Quote-fingers.
uziq
Member
+426|2577

Dilbert_X wrote:

Lepers were isolated on islands you dunce, not just told to stay 1.5m away from people if possible.
a colony didn't always literally mean an island: a leper 'colony' is a group of people living together. considering the regions where leprosy was preponderant throughout history, like in the middle-east, there weren't exactly many islands readily to hand.

it was much more common to keep them in 'lazar houses' or leprosy hospitals, i.e. a special sanatorium just for leprosy sufferers, a building in the town. jesus cured a 'lazar' notably in the bible. he didn't get on a boat and travel to some ultra-dangerous plague island to do it. you can find dozens of examples of lazar houses in medieval city plans of london and elsewhere. derp.

https://www.waterfordtreasures.com/images/made/images/uploads/news/Leper_Hospital_480_480_c1.jpg

leprosy isn't that contagious. you need repeated close contact with people, fluid contact, via nose or mouth. it's probably even less contagious than ebola. you could be within 1.5 metres of a leper and not contract leprosy. it is NOT AN AIRBORNE DISEASE. the entire image of a biblical leper is of someone begging in the streets for alms, with people avoiding touching them. ffs.

and, once again, the 'medieval solution' to leprosy had nothing to do with an actual understanding of the disease, or disease contagion. their containment strategies had nothing to do with 'safe distances' and whether or not it was airborne. there was NO GERM THEORY at the time. so you looking at the 'wisdom' of people who didn't even know what a fucking disease was, and who countenanced it as a sort of 'curse from god', is pretty fucking dumb. yes, let's look to the dark ages and their treatment of lepers as a good guide to dealing with a 21st century pandemic. vaccines are scary! science is spooky! we should all cross our chests, say a hail mary three times, and cross the street whenever we see a covid sufferer. god sent them here to remind us of jesus's sufferings, after all!

but please tell me more how 'i clearly have no idea what i'm talking about'. you really are a fucking mong.

Last edited by uziq (2021-10-15 02:04:59)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,757|5230|eXtreme to the maX

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

I can't believe the turn this has taken. "Medieval solutions worked." I can't even start on that.

Fighting it with vaccines and modern medicine: thumbs up.

Exsanguination, trepanation, locking your population up in a filthy town: thumbs down.

Let us know what the chicken entrails tell you though, dilbert.
Didn't say any of that, isolation and quarantine worked well for a lot of things.

Just think, if China had reported an outbreak to the WHO as they should have done and Wuhan had been isolated we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
Birds Aren't Real
uziq
Member
+426|2577
you are spouting ahistorical claptrap. isolation and quarantine didn't work for the black death, for leprosy or for smallpox. your comparisons are almost wholly arbitrary and inane. people didn't even understand how plagues spread in those eras, and locking down was the only measure available. the black death ravaged europe for centuries and 'lockdowns' only mitigated its spread in a limited way; rather, the purpose of a city-wide lockdown was to stop everyone from dying from a highly lethal disease, not to control its spread. the bubonic plague spread and was general in europe for most of the medieval era ffs! which is as you'd expect, considering, you know, even the plague doctors and authorities didn't know how the thing was transmitted. door-to-door visitors and functionaries weren't exactly in full PPE using sterile handwash; people still had to work, eat and trade.

*black death kills one third of the entire population of europe*
dilbert: the medieval approach just worked.

you're making it sound as if medieval societies had the problem of pandemics licked, and just locked down rapidly whenever a cholera or bubonic plague outbreak occurred, nipping it in the bud. that's far from the truth. plagues occasioned fear, panic, and all sorts of superstitious hoodoo. lockdowns might have curbed the death toll on a city-by-city basis, but it hardly stopped the bubonic plague from spreading all across europe via her ports and trading places. you know, just like the global economy today is too complex to completely shut down.

https://cdn.britannica.com/s:740x416,c:crop/98/6698-050-59017642/pandemic-Europe-Black-Death.jpg

highly effective lockdowns there.

i seriously cannot stress enough how stupid it is to cite medieval approaches to leprosy, of all fucking things, as a 'how to' guide for covid. we are talking about societies that were pre-science, pre-modern medicine, and pre-vaccination/inoculation. all of which have completely revolutionised the way human beings experience disease. 'the medieval approach just worked!' yes, that's why their average life expectancy was half of ours. you fucking idiot! the fact you say this in the same breath as calling vaccines 'useless' or 'minimally effective' on their own is MIND BOGGLING.

to recap: the black death burnt itself out after centuries of ravaging europe. leprosy was cured by modern medication. smallpox was eradicated using a vaccine. should funding and resources be devoted to it, ebola probably will be counter-acted by a vaccine too. isolation and lockdowns did NOT 'control' or 'extinguish' any of those illnesses. medieval man didn't know how diseases spread, let alone how to treat them beyond folk cures and herbal remedies. F F S.

Last edited by uziq (2021-10-15 06:49:26)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+511|2844
I am sick. Been over a year since I have laid in bed waiting for the NyQuil to kick in. I think another teacher got me sick.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,939|5896|USA

https://i.imgur.com/zclayE2.jpg
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,757|5230|eXtreme to the maX
Thats great and all.

Isolation has worked very effectively for Australia for almost two years now, but for a few idiots we'd be doing better still.
Birds Aren't Real
uziq
Member
+426|2577
both australia and new zealand have had untraced community transmissions and clusters.

melbourne had the world's longest lockdown and still didn't get rid of covid. ditto now with new zealand's experience of the delta variant. zero covid comes at huge economic costs, and other countries have performed very well with covid without needing such drastic measures.

not sure how you think it's 'working'. lockdowns were a way to buy time and mitigate deaths before widespread vaccination/immunity. neither the people nor government of aus/nz seem to have very much appetite for another year of lockdowns.

'if we only isolated the first cases in week 1 ...' 'if only there weren't idiots ...' 'if we just totally locked down globally for 4 weeks ...'. those are all big, big ifs and don't seem very connected to practical reality.

Last edited by uziq (2021-10-17 06:12:31)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,757|5230|eXtreme to the maX
Australia isolated very early and did pretty well, so did NZ, compared with the trainwrecks which are Britain and America thanks to freeeeedoooom
Birds Aren't Real
uziq
Member
+426|2577
it's like you're not even listening. indefinite lockdowns are not sustainable. they never were.

if you believed they were, and if you genuinely had the conviction that vaccines are 'minimally useful', why did you get a vaccine?

why not just choose to stay in and lockdown yourself whenever there's a local outbreak? oh wait.

Last edited by uziq (2021-10-17 20:37:21)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,757|5230|eXtreme to the maX
You're confusing isolation with lockdowns, very weird.

We've had great isolation and no lockdowns to speak of, its worked great.

Tasmania has had a grand total of 17 days of lockdown, which weren't statewide, here I think we've had 11 days.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_ … _Australia
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uziq
Member
+426|2577
yes, tasmania, really comparable to a london or a new york. amazing solution. let's isolate economic centres with 10,000,000 inhabitants!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,757|5230|eXtreme to the maX
Why not? 99% of travel is ego-related
Birds Aren't Real
uziq
Member
+426|2577


are you missing the part above where your 'highly successful' medieval european strategy of isolation totally failed to stop an infectious disease from travelling all around the continent's ports, because of trade and economy. all those people taking the bubonic plague from one coastal italian town to another weren't off on package holidays. derp.

it's pretty easy to isolate tasmania. paris or amsterdam or, er, melbourne as it turns out ... not so much. new zealand is fairly one of the most isolated inhabited places on the planet, and even they've had several untraced outbreaks of the delta variant. even the NZ government have said that their lockdown/isolation approach isn't working with the delta variant.

as i said above, the only country still pursuing such a heavy-handed strategy is china. a technocratic-authoritarian hell-hole who might not even be honest about their 'successful' covid strategy anyway, and who have indicated their desire to re-open after 80% vaccination. be my guest if you're now suddenly fan no. 1 of china's covid treatment. i prefer vaccines, mask wearing, taking tests before big public events, quarantining after flights, etc etc., to living under the all seeing eye and arbitrary detention of a totaltarian govt.

Last edited by uziq (2021-10-18 00:03:03)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,757|5230|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

i prefer vaccines, mask wearing, taking tests before big public events, quarantining after flights, etc etc.,
Doesn't work though eh.

"With vaccination protocols and testing protocols and all of the constant reviewing of infection protection controls … it just shows that ultimately, this is still a very hard virus."

A 58-year-old man in Auckland tested positive to COVID-19 after becoming symptomatic on August 14, prompting a nationwide lockdown.

Genomic sequencing traced the original case to someone who arrived on a so-called red-zone flight from Australia.

They entered managed isolation at Auckland's Crowne Plaza hotel and soon afterwards, the family staying in an adjacent room at Crowne Plaza tested positive.

According to Professor Michael Baker, an epidemiologist at the University of Otago in New Zealand, this was a sign that the person was highly infectious while at that hotel.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-05/ … /100430934

So who was this person who absolutely had to travel and why?
Birds Aren't Real
uziq
Member
+426|2577
yes, it does work in the main, much more effectively than calling for strict total lockdowns and bans on all flights forever and ever. are you really this thick?

let's just ignore the wealth of data that talks about the effectivity of the vaccines. let's ignore the economic self-harm of lockdowns.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_UhWlcWQAMmLYJ?format=png&name=4096x4096

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_UiVzAXEAUr3A_?format=png&name=4096x4096

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_UjPhlXoAAHafj?format=png&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FB6wWIdXMAU5BJs?format=jpg&name=large

but look at this one example where a man carried a case across a border! AaaaAaaahhhhH! the vaccines are useless! we must all stay at home!

hey guys, i've got some really good comparisons. how about medieval lepers? how about cherrypicking one of the remotest islands on the planet, with a population of half a million and no significant ports or industry to speak of, and applying it to a global scale? top-rate thinking chap. i'll call the city councillors of seoul to tell them to look to the example of a nature reserve off the southern tip of australia for their post-vaccination strategy.

it's really simple to control this pandemic and keep hospitalization/deaths low: vaccination, with boosters in the over-65s after 6 months (this is relevant to israel/UK now, as they achieved widespread vaccination much earlier than other western european nations); quick lateral flow testing can be utilized at large events (and curfews or limits can be imposed to control the scale and risk of such events); testing+quarantine+contact tracing is prudent for all international travel (states with high rates of vaccination should form agreements as to this); masks should be encouraged to be worn on public transport and in stores, etc. that's it. vaccines/boosters > masks > social distancing measures, including testing and tighter regulation for indoor events.

Last edited by uziq (2021-10-18 00:37:27)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,757|5230|eXtreme to the maX
Yeah, and Britain is at only 120 deaths a day

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/85500475.jpg

Whats important is that people can fly around the world to gawp at stuff.
Birds Aren't Real

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