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2021-09-02 01:47:33
uziq
Member
+492|3450

Dilbert_X wrote:

I didn't want the AZ vaccine very much, and in the end I didn't have to.
blood clot risk greater after Covid infection than after vaccination.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ … accination

The chances of developing dangerous blood clots after being infected with the virus that causes Covid-19 far outweighs the risks of the AstraZeneca and Pfizer vaccines, according to the largest study of its kind.

The sweeping analysis used data from more than 29 million people in England to compare both vaccines with infection from Sars-Cov-2. It weighed up rates of hospital admission or death from blood clots, as well as other blood disorders, within 28 days of either a positive test or receiving the first jab.

Lead author Julia Hippisley-Cox, professor of clinical epidemiology and general practice at the University of Oxford, said: “People should be aware of these increased risks after Covid-19 vaccination and seek medical attention promptly if they develop symptoms, but also be aware that the risks are considerably higher and over longer periods of time if they become infected with Sars Cov-2.”
what's that? in your own words? 'genius'. imagine being so scientifically illiterate that you scaremonger over a vaccine which is many times less risky than the actual fucking disease.

Last edited by uziq (2021-09-02 01:48:36)

2021-09-02 02:08:06
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3717

uziq wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Going to raves during a pandemic, going to school during a pandemic, going to work during a pandemic.

Mask and vax requirement a step in the right direction. Two preventative measures, the more the merrier.

Remember when you didn't want to get the vaccine, during a pandemic?
a young person who was 18 when this thing started is probably nearing 21 now. they’ve never been to a pub/bar, a music festival, a nightclub - any of the rites and follies of youth. asking the very youngest and most healthy – as well as those with the most energy – to sit on their hands for 3 years really is a big ask. there are now 40 deaths a day in the U.K.  hospitalisations are way down. deaths are way, way down. at what point do you decide to stop suspending ordinary civil and social society for the sake of < 100 deaths a day? any number of any seasonal or endemic illnesses claim those sorts of numbers.

i was adamantly against reopening or this sort of ‘acceptable death’ calculus in the early stages of the pandemic. that’s because we had no provable vaccines or way of mitigating the plague spread at all. now we do. the vaccines are of changeable effectivity, sure, and we will need to devise booster shots. but the pandemic is now generalised and covid will be with us forever. we really need to think about widespread vaccination drives now as the top priority, not lockdowns and restrictions.

the WHO this week are worrying about the Mu variant already. this thing is never going away. whilst, yes, having relatively open societies could incubate more strains, there’s not exactly a directly linear relationship between the two. new strains are going to mutate and arrive regardless. viral evolution doesn’t have clearly marked accelerator and brake pedals. shutting everyone inside for the next year won’t directly retard the chance of mutations. it doesn’t work like that.

even australia and NZ, the remotest places in the civilised world, are now muttering about ending their ‘zero covid’ policies. it’s simply not tenable. for a multitude of reasons, human and natural, covid is here to stay. you can’t decouple yourself from normal real life, or the global system, and keep it out forever. suppression and eradication became impossible over a year ago.

and yet dilbert still has a problem with 2-3x vaccinated youngsters going to (medically approved) raves. WHAT is the fucking alternative? the young generation today have already had their schooling, exams, expensive university experiences etc. be totally disrupted by this thing. imagine being $75,000 in debt after 2.5 years of a university course given via zoom, with zero class contact, zero social element, zero campus access. then some arsehole who lives at home with his parents accuses you of ‘not being very smart or considerate’ because you go to a party. after mass-scale NHS studies have already established them as safe! lol FUCK off!
I agree that we can't stay locked down forever. Some kids have lost 2 years of education already. That's really bad. Very unfair that kids missed out on things like a prom, high school parties, graduation ceremonies, etc. We can probably throw all of that on the pile of things for young people to be angry about.

The U.S. is back up to 1400 deaths a day + 2 weeks trends still in the positive double digits. We were down to 200 deaths a day in the early summer when we almost fully reopened. Southern states are doing the ice truck challenge right now and I expect the northern states to get hit hard during the winter. I will be unsurprised if we add another 100,000 deaths before spring.

Anyhow, I am at a loss as to what to do now. We can't force everyone to take a vaccine and new variants will keep on coming. But it is also a failure of society for us to be okay with FEMA ice truckers road tripping across the U.S. as the seasons change. At this point I blame the unvaccinated.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2021-09-02 02:12:40
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

what's that? in your own words? 'genius'. imagine being so scientifically illiterate that you scaremonger over a vaccine which is many times less risky than the actual fucking disease.
We've had virtually no actual cases so the risk of getting covid and complications thereof was miniscule.

So far 0.05% of people in my state have actually had covid, the risk to me from the vaccine was greater.
If you had any idea how statistics worked you'd understand this.

Not sure why we're doing well, maybe people here aren't stupid, holding raves etc.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2021-09-02 02:13:14)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2021-09-02 02:19:59
uziq
Member
+492|3450
being vaccinated and re-opening is the only way out of this pandemic.

remaining locked down with 'zero community transmission' is not feasible. it's impossible.

if you had any idea how public health policy works, you'd understand this.

https://www.economist.com/asia/2021/08/ … d-strategy

This is not a sustainable way to live in this country,” declared Scott Morrison, Australia’s prime minister, on August 23rd. He was defending a dramatic shift in covid-19 strategy. Since the start of the pandemic Australia has used an approach dubbed “covid zero”, stamping on outbreaks down to the last case, whatever it takes. From now on, cases will be allowed to rise as long as hospitals can cope with them. The plan is to drop most restrictions once 80% of adults are vaccinated, which looks achievable by the end of the year.
seems your political leaders get it.
2021-09-02 02:27:00
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX
Worked fine in my state, we've barely had any lockdown, its not my fault other people are stupid.

Hospitals can't cope with an average tuesday afternoon, they won't cope with any significant level of infection.

Allowing infections to rip will mean other illnesses won't get treated and people who never had covid will die.

The govt is currently holding out for 80% vaccination, this means 40% of people are likely to get a bad case of covid and tens of thousands will die.
It doesn't really seem worth it just so people can holiday and hold raves.

I mean, I know you're a selfish narcissist and all but you might just occasionally think of the consequences for other people.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2021-09-02 02:35:29
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3717
I am less angry at ravers than I am at bar rats who never stopped doing their thing. At least ravers dance and play loud music. If you want to sit on your ass and pump unhealthy amounts of alcohol into your system you can do that at home.

Bars are depressing places. I am glad I only go once every few months.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2021-09-02 02:49:56
uziq
Member
+492|3450

Dilbert_X wrote:

I mean, I know you're a selfish narcissist and all but you might just occasionally think of the consequences for other people.
um, i'm talking about the UK, where deaths are in the 40s and vaccination levels are very high.

learn to fucking follow a conversation, jesus christ.

you called people going to raves in the UK irresponsible and selfish, as if the scenario of hospitals becoming overwhelmed and 10,000s dying is relevant to the UK.

i don't think it's the problem of 19 year olds in the UK that the australian government fucked up their vaccine drive and gave it the worst performance of any country in the OECD.

as per usual, you seem bitter and resigned. too bad!
2021-09-02 02:53:46
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX
Erm no daily uk deaths are averaging around a hundred and hit 200 today.

https://i.imgur.com/nauLCvl.png

What would be great would be if you could assemble some actual data then use that to support your argument, not ramble off into your imagination.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2021-09-02 03:04:14
uziq
Member
+492|3450
i mentioned the 100 figure above. i don't check the figures every day as i'm not living in the country.

100 deaths a day ... so? as i have said, time and time again, the number of deaths has been decoupled from the transmission level/new cases numbers. 100 deaths a day with 30,000 cases ... this was unheard of last summer, or before widespread vaccination.

100 deaths a day is, unfortunately, an acceptable tolerance for society to resume. you can't keep 18-25 year olds locked up for a third year running, punishing them for going to raves, for the sake of 100 deaths a day. any number of endemic illnesses cause that level of mortality per day. i have made this point about FOUR times now.

you call people going to raves irresponsible. they are vaccinated, many events require masks (though not all), and every event requires a negative test result to be shown at the gate. how is this 'irresponsible'? the NHS itself piloted several large-scale events to test their practicability and safety. they concluded they were SAFE. now maybe stop haranguing young people for living their lives, you sadsack?

Last edited by uziq (2021-09-02 03:05:34)

2021-09-02 03:13:06
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

100 deaths a day is, unfortunately, an acceptable tolerance for society to resume. you can't keep 18-25 year olds locked up for a third year running, punishing them for going to raves, for the sake of 100 deaths a day. any number of endemic illnesses cause that level of mortality per day. i have made this point about FOUR times now.
Wait, I thought people should stop drinking alcohol due to the avoidable deaths - which are their own responsibility, you want other people to die so you can party?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2021-09-02 03:19:08
uziq
Member
+492|3450
i never said people should stop drinking alcohol? i pointed out to you that it is a dangerous activity, with many risks, many more risks than lots of other drugs in fact.

i have said before that you accept the evident risk of drinking alcohol for its tangible pleasures and benefits.

but you're suddenly incoherent when it comes to taking a vaccine, based on the same calculation of risk:benefit? LOL.

keep changing the goal posts. i can tell you didn't make the debating society in school! is that part of all that complex 'boarding school trauma' you're still carrying around, as a maladjust man in a diaper?

Last edited by uziq (2021-09-02 03:22:10)

2021-09-02 03:26:27
uziq
Member
+492|3450
100 deaths a day is about the same death figures as a single bad flu season in the UK, fyi. around 30,000 people a year die of flu (or pneumonia complications), concentrated in the winter months.

would you campaign to lockdown all of society until we can curb the flu fatality levels? because it isn't going to happen. even with 75 years of practice at flu vaccines, we can't attain better performance than that.

once a society has reached 70-80% vaccination levels, the only available next step is to start cautiously reopening. it's as simple as that. you're never going to attain 100% vaccine compliance and you're never going to forestall an endemic level of covid.

Last edited by uziq (2021-09-02 03:29:11)

2021-09-02 03:40:37
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX
There's not much risk to me in other people drinking alcohol, or me drinking alcohol to them.

There is a substantial risk to me if people around me have COVID-19

Is that simple enough for you?

70% is nothing, 70% vaccination, 75% effectiveness means ~50% are unprotected.
Thats the ideal scenario for incubating the next variant.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2021-09-02 04:06:28
uziq
Member
+492|3450
erm, tell that to a victim of drunk-driving, domestic abuse, rape or murder. alcohol causes massive social harms and is a common factor in a significant proportion of crimes. we have been over this dozens and dozens of times before. the statistics are freely available on the internet. an alarmingly high number of domestic abuses or rapes involve alcohol as an influencing factor (which makes sense considering its effects on temper and inhibition).

the analogy is a bad one. you raised it. i don't know why. i compared the current covid death figures in the UK to flu, i.e. another endemic disease that we can't eradicate.

again, you don't understand the mechanism of viral mutation. and it's pointless to urge your countrymen to stay in lockdown for another 3 years when the main variants are shooting up in areas like india, south africa, colombia, etc. let me guess: keep australia closed until the third world reaches full vaccination too? LOL.

Last edited by uziq (2021-09-02 04:07:43)

2021-09-02 04:06:49
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6769|PNW

uziq wrote:

i was adamantly against reopening or this sort of ‘acceptable death’ calculus in the early stages of the pandemic. that’s because we had no provable vaccines or way of mitigating the plague spread at all. now we do. the vaccines are of changeable effectivity, sure, and we will need to devise booster shots. but the pandemic is now generalised and covid will be with us forever. we really need to think about widespread vaccination drives now as the top priority, not lockdowns and restrictions.

the WHO this week are worrying about the Mu variant already. this thing is never going away. whilst, yes, having relatively open societies could incubate more strains, there’s not exactly a directly linear relationship between the two. new strains are going to mutate and arrive regardless. viral evolution doesn’t have clearly marked accelerator and brake pedals. shutting everyone inside for the next year won’t directly retard the chance of mutations. it doesn’t work like that.
On that, bit of a part time job keeping up on some of personal correspondences on a bare minimal basis every time some exaggeration about vaccines or whatever rolls out.

"I heard the vaccine-"
"COVID is measurably worse."
"But the vaccine does-"
"Citation needed."
"Well screw the WHO/CDC/Fauci/epidemiologists/virologists-"
"Your sources?"
"I'm not putting that shit in my arm."

(to their pocket change credit, they at least thought the dewormer was silly. a partial turnaround from a hydroxychloroquine point made earlier, raised eyebrow, "they've got nothing to lose, why are we stopping people? huh")

One guy said that Israel was like 99% vaccinated and was being crushed by COVID. I dunno where he got that from, or if he just made it up. Also earlier this year suggested he ask his doctor about vaccine information awhile back if he was worried about it. Recent response "those guys never return their calls." OK so if you call Tucker Carlson or whoever he'll return that for sure? Should change his doctor if he's that difficult to get a hold of.

Where is the gung ho attitude of all the people saying old folks should be sent out to keep McDonald's open for the economy or whatever?

Tedious. At least some say they plan to get it, although it's a very delicate matter of avoiding contrarian impulses. Gotta make sure they fall into the decision under their own impetus.

This whole antivax fiasco and covid politicization has really done a number on the country.
2021-09-02 04:11:10
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

again, you don't understand the mechanism of viral mutation. and it's pointless to urge your countrymen to stay in lockdown for another 3 years when the main variants are shooting up in areas like india, south africa, colombia, etc. let me guess: keep australia closed until the third world reaches full vaccination too? LOL.
Yeah we should just have let plague ships dock to keep travel open.
Why didn't we encourage ebola victims to spread the disease? Everyone is going to get it sometime.

I'd certainly keep Australia closed for a whole lot longer, there's exactly no reason to infect us all when we can keep the border shut.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2021-09-02 04:13:22
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6769|PNW

Democratic People's Republic of Australia.
2021-09-02 04:24:40
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX
1,000 deaths so far, we can really do without UK-level death rates just so tourists can go flop on a beach in asia.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2021-09-02 07:52:38
uziq
Member
+492|3450
nobody is talking about international tourism. we are talking about reopening society – schools, universities, places of employment, small businesses, etc. – which are inevitably going to be vectors of covid transmission. the best you can do is to vaccinate the population.

australia won't even eradicate covid with its current levels of infection. it's in the 1000s per day now, isn't it? cat's out the bag. delta is more transmissible than the last wave. the game has changed. you aren't changing with it.
2021-09-02 13:45:23
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3717
I have already stated that we should be looking to reopen. That said, at what point do we decide to do only partial shutdowns? Schools in the northeast are opening back up and we are still riding our second biggest wave. Winter will be bad.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2021-09-02 16:58:31
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

nobody is talking about international tourism. we are talking about reopening society – schools, universities, places of employment, small businesses, etc. – which are inevitably going to be vectors of covid transmission. the best you can do is to vaccinate the population.

australia won't even eradicate covid with its current levels of infection. it's in the 1000s per day now, isn't it? cat's out the bag. delta is more transmissible than the last wave. the game has changed. you aren't changing with it.
That was all open, shut down once again thanks to unnecessary international travel.

Failing to contain delta, and WA has done it no problem, isn't an excuse to let it rip and overwhelm hospitals so no-one else can get treated.

A family friend just died of a brain tumour, thanks to inadequate treatment because so many staff are isolating due to covid.
But whats important here is opening up so people can get back to leisure travel and festivals.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2021-09-02 19:53:25
uziq
Member
+492|3450
hospitals won’t be overwhelmed if the majority are vaccinated … this isn’t complicated. they haven’t been in the U.K. and our numbers of ICU beds:population is not exactly world-beating.

Last edited by uziq (2021-09-02 19:53:48)

2021-09-02 22:01:25
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6769|PNW

Vast majority, mind. There's no reason a wealthy country shouldn't be at 90%+ vax on something this disruptive.
2021-09-03 06:47:46
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,736|6735|Oxferd Ohire
Up to 8 or 9 cases at work in as many days.
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
2021-09-03 13:36:50
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6769|PNW

for mac: https://imgur.com/gallery/dAD4w9u

"I do not wear a mask because I do not believe I need one" degenerative adult temper tantrum.

One of the comments put it best: "braying oaf."

 

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