KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6637|949

I mean, yes, surely their geographic situation, population, and importance in the world economy are factors in their ability to contain covid, but that doesn't mean they haven't been doing the right thing almost from the get-go. Let them take a victory lap, they deserve it.

South Korea has been having a rough time for a few months now. They have been at the forefront of contact-tracing, for sure, and international traveler quarantines, but they haven't implemented lock downs in a controlled, reasonable manner that could have stopped any number of spikes in the country.

Taiwan is obviously another country that has been doing very well in their containment strategy, yep.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3724

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Something for people to be mindful of before they have their next 300-guest wedding.

I haven't gone to the doctor, dentist, or had a professional haircut all year. My parents haven't either, though have an indoor/outdoor cat and things are unclear (afaik) on if they can spread it to humans. My aunt is terrified of catching it at the hospital while being treated. If fates swing hardcore, my father could lose both siblings within months.

But yes, the virus is fake news. "I dOn'T KnOw AnYoNe WhO's CaUgHt It!"
My district sends out an email everytime there is a birth or death in the family of an employee. Whenever I see an email notification of a death of an elderly relative I wonder if COVID got them. I think a lot of families aren't going to advertise that COVID got their relative either. It's like people being embarrassed that their relatives died of suicide or drug overdose.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+492|3457

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

I mean, yes, surely their geographic situation, population, and importance in the world economy are factors in their ability to contain covid, but that doesn't mean they haven't been doing the right thing almost from the get-go. Let them take a victory lap, they deserve it.

South Korea has been having a rough time for a few months now. They have been at the forefront of contact-tracing, for sure, and international traveler quarantines, but they haven't implemented lock downs in a controlled, reasonable manner that could have stopped any number of spikes in the country.

Taiwan is obviously another country that has been doing very well in their containment strategy, yep.
south korea is literally a nation of small shopkeepers, outside of the giant corporate chaebols. their ‘middle class’ is 30 years old. there are something like 1.25 million small businesses in seoul alone.

korea has only in the last 3 weeks started to post infection numbers above 1000. that’s for the first time in a year. large numbers of those are clusters in a seoul prison, in nursing homes and in hospitals. are you sure you want to destroy 1.25 million businesses by closing them for 3 months over 500 infections per day? they’ve never even approached an r-factor near exponential numbers. their spread has consistently been contained. it’s been so tightly under wrap that they can talk about an ‘itaewon club incident’ or a ‘church pastor’ story, because they were the sole loci of infection for months at a time.

korea fanboy, i know, must sound like it. obviously i’ve been following their situation very closely these last few months. but, c’mon, let’s cut the crap. them not going into a national lockdown is not ‘poor management’. in this case it’s the opposite.

Last edited by uziq (2021-01-05 13:07:15)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6777|PNW

SuperJail Warden wrote:

My district sends out an email everytime there is a birth or death in the family of an employee. Whenever I see an email notification of a death of an elderly relative I wonder if COVID got them. I think a lot of families aren't going to advertise that COVID got their relative either. It's like people being embarrassed that their relatives died of suicide or drug overdose.
Well that's, special? Keeping that secret is kind of news to me. It's been a rather public and much discussed thing throughout 2020 and "x and such contact you might have had in the building within y hours apart tested positive, go test." It's not like people are usually trying to hide it like it's AIDS?
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3724

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

My district sends out an email everytime there is a birth or death in the family of an employee. Whenever I see an email notification of a death of an elderly relative I wonder if COVID got them. I think a lot of families aren't going to advertise that COVID got their relative either. It's like people being embarrassed that their relatives died of suicide or drug overdose.
Well that's, special? Keeping that secret is kind of news to me. It's been a rather public and much discussed thing throughout 2020 and "x and such contact you might have had in the building within y hours apart tested positive, go test." It's not like people are usually trying to hide it like it's AIDS?
I think the whole "wear a mask dumbass" thing may make some people feel like other people feel that their relative getting sick was the total fault of their dead relative. and they would be embarrassed of that.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6637|949

uziq wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

I mean, yes, surely their geographic situation, population, and importance in the world economy are factors in their ability to contain covid, but that doesn't mean they haven't been doing the right thing almost from the get-go. Let them take a victory lap, they deserve it.

South Korea has been having a rough time for a few months now. They have been at the forefront of contact-tracing, for sure, and international traveler quarantines, but they haven't implemented lock downs in a controlled, reasonable manner that could have stopped any number of spikes in the country.

Taiwan is obviously another country that has been doing very well in their containment strategy, yep.
south korea is literally a nation of small shopkeepers, outside of the giant corporate chaebols. their ‘middle class’ is 30 years old. there are something like 1.25 million small businesses in seoul alone.

korea has only in the last 3 weeks started to post infection numbers above 1000. that’s for the first time in a year. large numbers of those are clusters in a seoul prison, in nursing homes and in hospitals. are you sure you want to destroy 1.25 million businesses by closing them for 3 months over 500 infections per day? they’ve never even approached an r-factor near exponential numbers. their spread has consistently been contained. it’s been so tightly under wrap that they can talk about an ‘itaewon club incident’ or a ‘church pastor’ story, because they were the sole loci of infection for months at a time.

korea fanboy, i know, must sound like it. obviously i’ve been following their situation very closely these last few months. but, c’mon, let’s cut the crap. them not going into a national lockdown is not ‘poor management’. in this case it’s the opposite.
There isn't an either or scenario where you either have a national lockdown or nothing. The club incident is an example of a failed policy decision (allowing nightclubs to operate in the middle of a pandemic) mitigated by good policy (extensive contact tracing).

South Korea has had a very real 3rd wave covid spike. Yes, sub-1000 /day is a good number to be under for a population of 50m. The infection rate has been trending upward, only recently dropping. You know what the Korean government did in response to the climbing numbers? They implemented restrictions on gatherings, travel, and targeted lockdowns.
uziq
Member
+492|3457
a population of 5m? korea has 1000 a day (actually 600 today but i'll give you the rounding error) with a population of 52 million. it's new zealand who have 5 million people. their numbers are exceptionally low and have remained low throughout, without ever going to their 'tier 3' of effective lockdown/business shutdown.

they're in tier 2.5x or something now. most all retail businesses, cafes, restaurants, etc. have remained open all year. those all-important small businesses i was talking about above. restaurants are still full every night. if their policy was failing, the numbers would be much, much higher.

as i said, SK's middle-class are a pretty nascent phenomenon. we're not talking about a settled western social democracy like france or denmark; or even like new zealand or canada, for that matter. they don't have the political werewithal (or ideology) to furlough 10+ million people for months at a time. a full lockdown for even a month or two would spell business ruin for legions of lower-middle class families there. and businesses there, as we've discussed passim, are not exactly worker rights-friendly; everyone has been expected to come into the office pretty much all year, with little mention of remote working. so a full lockdown is truly a last-resort scenario for their government, who will be expected to intervene to a very high degree.

yes, letting nightclubs open on the surface of it can seem very silly. but japan have allowed clubs and venues to be open, too, whilst also implementing the strictest measures elsewhere, viz. in regards to their borders. it's about finding acceptable tolerances and locking down in a smart way. shutting down the entire economy is the dumb western measure that we've had to resort to - always too late - when the viral spread is already exponential and way beyond contact tracing. south korea has basically never reached that point.

to talk about 'failures of governance' when their graph has been flatlined throughout all of 2020 is a bit of a poor joke on them. to say they've been 'having a rough time in the last few months' is borderline hysterical: they're only just reached 1k cases per day ffs! it seems to me they've found acceptable tolerances and allowances without, say, ruining the education of the young, the timetables of their universities and medical schools, the everyday functioning of the economy, etc. and, yes, even clubs can open and operate safely if the pandemic is under control. aiming for 0 cases a day in a country of 50 million and a major international cosmopolitan hub is not realistic. new zealand's solution does not fit hardly anywhere else.

Last edited by uziq (2021-01-05 14:31:24)

KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6637|949

I was missing a zero in there, my bad

Not sure why you're continuing to talk about national lockdowns, but go on king. What graph has been flat? It sure isn't their daily new case rate.
uziq
Member
+492|3457
ok, keep talking about a country 'having a rough time' when 600 people a day get infected and 20 people die. you sound like all the hysterical covid stereotypes that jay was braying about.

their daily new case rate and 'third wave' peaked at 1,000 cases per day and has stayed FLAT for about 2-3 weeks. it is now trending down.
http://ncov.mohw.go.kr/en/bdBoardList.do

woah, 'having a rough time'. their population is comparable to the UK or spain. our third wave is now at 60,000 cases a day. that's a rough time. but they should definitely ruin their annual school timetable, delay children's education, induce widespread business collapse for the sake of 500 cases a day, right?

i can't believe you're even using such exaggerated rhetoric and asking 'where is the flat graph?' in a country that has just broke 1,000 deaths ALL year.

Last edited by uziq (2021-01-05 14:37:04)

KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6637|949

Taiwan has half the population and less than a tenth of the new case rate that Korea has.

Korea new daily cases were going up until the government enacted further restrictions. Korea was having a rough time managing their infections in the 3rd wave, which resulted in the government taking new measures to mitigate the spread.

You should let the Korean government know that actually, the 3rd wave is actually not a problem and the measures they enacted are not needed, because the case rate is below 1000 new cases per day. I'm sure they'll appreciate your analysis.

Not shutting down nightclubs during a spike was a failed policy decision. I don't think that's a very spicy take. Not my fault that you're taking "policy failures" to mean the SK government is inept, or that the solution is to shut down schools. Very bizarre angle there.

Comparing SK response to the UK or US is a bit bonkers, in my opinion. It's ok to dismiss failures because the west are making bigger ones?
uziq
Member
+492|3457
here are your graphs for the year. rough time!!!

https://i.imgur.com/Adr7pnn.png

https://i.imgur.com/GCrVpkC.png
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6637|949

Very flat!

SK policy can only be understood in the context of western action (or inaction).
uziq
Member
+492|3457
You should let the Korean government know that actually, the 3rd wave is actually not a problem and the measures they enacted are not needed, because the case rate is below 1000 new cases per day. I'm sure they'll appreciate your analysis.
the korean government have said that their 'third wave' is under control and that they are not concerned about it. they have refused to enact their top-tier of lockdown measures that they outlined months ago. they have refused widespread calls for a lockdown from the cultural conservatives and old-people tabloids ringing their alarums. you are being more hysterical about their 'third wave' than the korean central disease control people.

their 'elevated measures' amounted to restricting gatherings to 6 people for new year's eve. jesus christ. it's been illegal to gather with your own family during xmas and new year for huge swathes of europe's population. i really cannot see how they've had a rough time or how they have anything to learn from new zealand.

stupid discussion anyway. my point was that it's better to compare south korea's performance and numbers to the world than remote, tiny ass new zealand. new zealand's case study yields relatively little insights to populous, hyper-dense, world hubs like london or seoul. i think korea's decision to not enter widespread economic shutdown and to cause pain to business/schools is essentially a very sound one; you make it sound like they've been taking slugs to the head in the boxing ring for the last few months. their outbreak is absolutely tiny relative to their population size. i hate to sound like jay but it really is insanity to shut down a country of 50 million people for 400 or 500 community transmissions per day, without any signs of exponential growth or out of control rise.

Last edited by uziq (2021-01-05 14:50:57)

uziq
Member
+492|3457

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Very flat!

SK policy can only be understood in the context of western action (or inaction).
well you're the one using terms like 'third wave' and 'rough time'. korea has just as many people as your average EU state ffs. p e r s p e c t i v e.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6637|949

Korea had a 3rd spike in Q4, much like the rest of the world, and as predicted by pretty much everyone. The Korean government enacted greater restrictions than previously imposed, including a targeted lockdown to deal with it.  It is under control precisely because of the policy decisions they made. The Korean government obviously thought the spike was significant enough to take action.

Those are inarguable facts.

That New Zealand has been better at handling covid than almost any other nation is a fact. Yes, there are many reasons why they were able to achieve what they did, but that doesn't invalidate what I said.
uziq
Member
+492|3457
also the itaewon cluster was a new occurrence and came essentially out of a calm period. it wasn't 'night-clubs are open during a spike'. i honestly can't be bothered to recapitulate a year's history for you so that you can dig in and defend your dumb, alarmist rhetoric.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6637|949

Why is me saying that South Korea had a 3rd spike being alarmist? I guess that means the government were hysterical in reacting to it then, too?

What is alarmist by saying South Korea made bad policy decisions?  Rereading the last 2 pages, it seems like the only one putting forth any sort of emotion is you
uziq
Member
+492|3457

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Korea had a 3rd spike in Q4, much like the rest of the world, and as predicted by pretty much everyone. The Korean government enacted greater restrictions than previously imposed, including a targeted lockdown to deal with it.  It is under control precisely because of the policy decisions they made. The Korean government obviously thought the spike was significant enough to take action.

Those are inarguable facts.
yes and those policies involved KEEPING BUSINESSES OPEN, including restaurants and retail. restaurants were packed wall-to-wall in seoul even in mid-december during their fearsome 'third wave'. you spoke about their 'policy failures' in comparison to new zealand; i retorted that their policies have been tailor-made for their own economy and have worked perfectly well with tolerable case rises.

but let's talk about scary 'spikes' amounting to 1000 cases per day and argue that a country of 50 million people located in china's armpit should aim for 0 transmissions a day at the cost of more restrictive measures!

you make me want to be an anti-masker, honestly.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6637|949

I never once said anything about closing restaurants or retail. Maybe you are trying to argue with someone elae?

To be clear, you were the one that made the comparison between NZ and SK, not me.

It's ok, I'm still gonna bring tea and cookies over later.
uziq
Member
+492|3457
i would love for you to expand, then, on what this entails:

but they haven't implemented lock downs in a controlled, reasonable manner that could have stopped any number of spikes in the country.
the korean government's policy has always been to avoid lockdowns. they call them a 'last resort' measure, for all the reasons and context i explicated above to do with the structure of their economy and labour market. you've been talking about their performance as if they've been in the doldrums for the last few months. their 'Q4 spike' amounted to cases rising for a few weeks to 1k/day and then being contained ... by people being limited in gathering sizes and having a late-night curfew.

contact tracing and behavioural distancing measures contained their spike. those things do no work in countries that genuinely have runaway exponential infection rates. korea haven't needed to go anywhere near 'lockdown' measures, and yet you're prescribing them in this thread. please tell me what lockdown measures don't involve closing restaurants or retail? what did you want to lockdown?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6111|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

new zealand deserve credit for being responsible and cautious for a year. but, from my perspective, listening to comparisons between the NZ and the UK for the last year 'bEcAuSe iT's aNotHer IsLaND', man, am i sick of that shit.
NZ Put the right policies in place very early, Britain probably still hasn't.

Britain has no excuses for being so far behind the curve, 'herd-immunity' was the original plan, apparently it didn't work out, now they're barely playing catchup. Once again if you elect a bunch of essay prats this is what you get. That and the collective dumbness of the population.

As for America, there's something weird about the American psyche which ignores whats right in front of people. Is it the education system or that the vaunted constitution says a lot about rights but little about responsibilities?
"There ain't nuttin in there bout wearin no mask"
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3457
i haven't made any excuses for britain anywhere in this whole 250 page thread, i think. our performance has been inept. we have the worst possible government at the worst possible moment.

what we can learn from NZ is still vanishingly small compared to what we can learn from a great number of any other countries. britain is not 1,200 miles from france. our transport and logistics networks and labour markets are tightly interwoven with the continent. but great, let the kiwis do one more lap or haka dance or whatever because they've done so well. if only the rest of the world could close down their borders and trace and control like new zealand did with 5 million people. bravo.

what is an 'essay prat'? humanities again i presume? do you know how many scientists signed that declaration urging the government to opt for herd immunity?

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54442386

the 'great barrington declaration' wasn't concocted by a bunch of classicists, you twot.

Last edited by uziq (2021-01-05 15:12:36)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6111|eXtreme to the maX
Distance doesn't matter, you just need to close the border, especially to unnecessary human traffic.

I'm sure NZ has import/export necessities too.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3457
i'm sure it's just as easy to contain and trace a virus when it's in a new york or a london as it is in new zealand. i see you're determined to miss the point in almost every way. new zealand is a tiny and isolated community. it's the best case scenario possible for pulling up the gangplanks and sitting out a pandemic.

europe in the early stage of the pandemic had insane vectors of infection. a huge break-out happened in liverpool because of spanish football fans flying from a covid-struck madrid to the uK for a football match. how many people are flying to new zealand for an overnight stay or long weekend to see sports matches? european nations are huddled together, standing on top of one another's toes. the consequences of shutting the borders and denying all passage and exchange are much, much higher than for new zealand.

can't believe at what length i've had to point this out. new zealand: good job but please, enough.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6637|949

uziq wrote:

i would love for you to expand, then, on what this entails:

but they haven't implemented lock downs in a controlled, reasonable manner that could have stopped any number of spikes in the country.
Not allowing clubs to open in areas where the spread is not contained is a good idea. Same with large-scale church services. Maybe shutting down or seriously curtailing leisure like ski resorts and the like?

The first two suggestions didn't happen. The 3rd suggestion is exactly what they did after the 3rd spike.

Probably not a good idea to allow large sporting events either. Wait, does a sporting event qualify as retail, or restaurant, or both?

Say it with me: "TAR-GET-ED LOCK-DOWNS"

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