unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7030|PNW

Dilbert_X wrote:

Larssen wrote:

Until we develop an AI that rules people we'll be stuck with dirty politics
Douglas Adams had the best idea, find the person who least wants to be ruler and give them the job.
Anyone who wants it is automatically disqualified.

Hence someone who lived with his cat on an otherwise uninhabited planet was deemed galactic ruler.
Piers Anthony (I think) in a short story I read long ago took it a step further in that the higher up you made it in the rungs of government power, the more tortures and mutilations you would endure. The idea being if beings would endure that for power, they would be less susceptible to malign influence.

That said, neither seem practical outside of fiction.
uziq
Member
+497|3710
interesting that you guys variously mock people for 'writing books about events' afterwards, as if book-writing or analysis is the impotent activity of fools. but then you quote douglas adams, a satirist and wit who furthered no meaningful analysis and made no suggestions, and nod sagely. 'yes, this man who wrote a book once and made a pithy epigram knows what's up'.

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7030|PNW

To be clear, for the record I don't think it would be a good idea to hand world presidency to a crazy cat lady living in the Yukon. Or a cat fetishist living with his parents in the outback.
Larssen
Member
+99|2146

uziq wrote:

professional armies did not routinely massacre civilian populations. rape and pillage are constants of warfare, sure. but the military objective was not to decimate civilian populations. that came with later phases of warfare in which the workers and 'non-combatant' population were classed as part of the industrial war-making effort, and hence legitimate targets.
That's a myth. From antiquity to the wars of decolonisation, civilians were often purposefully targetted, often as part of the 'war objective'. Any wars that saw relatively low civilian casualty counts are exceptions rather than the rule. This is not to say that all armies applied the methods of the mongols, but sacking, pillaging and mass executions as a psychological warfare tool have always been very common. The us-them dynamic in warfare did not exempt civilians, and the idea of a noble chivalrous war is a fable.
uziq
Member
+497|3710
in antiquity, yes, i'll give you that. but i specifically mentioned the wars of europe through the long 17th and 18th centuries, to refute dilbert's claim that we're 'making progress' in terms of ethics as we secularize. it's nothing anywhere near as neat as that. we haven't progressed from 'irrational' barbaric war-making to 'scientific rational' war-making. scientific invention has only facilitated the mass-murder of even more civilians.
Larssen
Member
+99|2146
The 17th century saw some of the most bloody wars in European history with extremely high civilian death tolls, so that is off the table. The 18th was an age of less interstate conflict (on European soil, at least) and more revolutions, which also saw very high civilian death tolls. If we extend into the 19th scorched earth tactics, city sieges that saw people starve to death and very violent repression of uprisings were still practiced. There's also a couple genocides in the east, notably perpetrated by russia. The colonies were a massacre in the same time period.

However I'll give you the fact that in the 18th-19th century citizenship and a morality surrounding war developed, but really world war 2 was the turning point after which it was regarded as criminal to kill civilians. Even so, insurgents and armed groups in civil wars the world over still purposefully target civilians, especially if they're at a military disadvantage. It's as old as time itself.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-12-21 05:10:16)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6364|eXtreme to the maX
If you narrow it to 1-2 centuries thats cheating.
Fuck Israel
uziq
Member
+497|3710
ironically the reason there's less war and less killing is probably due to the general level of society rising due to ... capitalism, not anything related to 'secularization' or a 'progress' from religious thinking.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+643|3978
It has only been western countries that have made a meme of not purposefully targeting civilians. And the U.S. doesn't have a great war winning record in the post-World War 2 period.

Further, targeting civilians is the logical end result of "war as a continuation of politics by another means". Problems between countries and civilizations begin with the people living in those places and not with the superstructures like the military that people create in response to those problems.

Finally, the lack of institutionalize mass murder of civilians in European warfare for a period is probably just a fluke or response to specific circumstances. I would better credit the Catholic Church for Europeans not mass murdering civilians before the Reformation made mass killing heretic Europeans unfortunate realities of blah blah blah.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+643|3978
Other thoughts...I remember reading in a class about French history how the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars were the start of modern total war. Because a loss to the French Revolutionary armies would result in a total reorganization of a country's social system, states had an interest in organizing all of its resources to fight a war.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Larssen
Member
+99|2146
Around the french revolution was the first introduction of a rudimentary idea of national conscription - levee en masse, an evolved form of feudal levees, covering all citizens of the republic.

As you quoted Clausewitz - he is most often connected to the development of 'total war'. His participation in the Napoleonic wars and being defeated by Napoleon spurred him to write Vom Kriege, which greatly influenced late 19th and early 20th century military thinking in Prussia (and later, everyone else as well). It's not a fair accusation though I think, I've come to see total war more as an inevitability that naturally followed the reorganised political landscape and the necessity for a large scale, industrialised effort to support warmaking in that timeperiod.

These days there's a bit of a reversing trend in some sense, as manpower is becoming ever less important vs the technology we can deploy. No need for massive armies in a battlefield ruled by sensors, drones, AI and missiles.

On the topic of why civilians are killed: there's often a few main reasons:

  • if the objective of war is territorial gain or annexation, the people living in the targetted area are usually expelled elsewhere, or killed.
  • As war prolongs and one side starts losing, it is increasingly likely that the losing military will deliberately target civilians, out of frustration or desperation.
  • In a civil war fight for power/territory, an entire peoples can be labelled mortal enemies, spurring events like the Rwandan or Bosnian genocide and other identity-based violence.
  • Insurgencies, terror cells and other groups that are at a huge military disadvantage often target civilians as a deliberate tactic to provoke excessive responses & overextend their enemies. They may also use civilians as shields.
  • Covert operations can target civilians. There's plenty instances of armed groups attacking civilians with the purpose of shifting blame elsewhere.


Lastly, in very intense conflicts civilian casualties are plenty because of the quick pace and brutality of the fighting. Once you are caught in a warzone, it can be hard to escape, and many people find themselves stuck between warring armies. Civilian casualties can be unintentional, but a lesser known fact is that some armies have guidelines for assessing an acceptable number of civilian casualties as collateral damage to take out a target. I'll subtly imply here that the US and Israelis have been known to use such assessment frameworks. Other countries just may kill indiscriminately. See for example the destruction of Grozny by the Russian armed forces in 1999-2000.

Overall it should be noted that civilians are of course an important part of war dynamics. It is vital to warring factions to gain implicit or explicit support of civilian populations to continue a war effort, conversely, if the purpose is to break an enemy one path to victory could be to strip their civilian support base. As such, civilians are and will remain targets in warfare as well, for various reasons.

I'm sure I may have forgotten some but the above list is reasonably comprehensive I think.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-12-21 08:44:51)

uziq
Member
+497|3710
good post.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6364|eXtreme to the maX
OK, so we've had a brief blip, 1700s to 1900s?, where war isn't total war.

a lesser known fact is that some armies have guidelines for assessing an acceptable number of civilian casualties as collateral damage to take out a target. I'll subtly imply here that the US and Israelis have been known to use such assessment frameworks
They did that through WW2 to the present day, Israel isn't involved in a war unless you call what its doing a war of expansion, and every US war has been a war of choice or aggression.
And the calculatlon seems heavily skewed in favour of going ahead whatever the civilian casualties.
Fuck Israel
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6364|eXtreme to the maX
So the WHO has said there is no evidence this new strain is more infectious, it does seem improbable that it would be or that there would be any evidence given Britain's shambolic data gathering.

At my company even though the GM has gone nuts with each spike, his priority being to protect himself and the coffee machine, today he was showing around his buddy and family "This is Mark, he just squeaked out of Sydney before the lockdown" dumbass.
Fuck Israel
uziq
Member
+497|3710
yep, about what i said. over-hyped mutation to 'save face' which has backfired spectacularly. now dover-calais are shut, 3 days before christmas, and half the world have shut their doors on British travel. way to fucking own your own population for the sake of dithering.

we truly have the worst possible government at the worst possible moment.

in other news, 2020 has been the deadliest year in American history.

This is the deadliest year in US history, with deaths expected to top 3 million for the first time — due mainly to the coronavirus pandemic.

Final mortality data for this year will not be available for months, AP reports.

But preliminary numbers suggest that the United States is on track to see more than 3.2 million deaths this year, or at least 400,000 more than in 2019.

US deaths increase most years, so some annual rise in fatalities is expected. But the 2020 numbers amount to a jump of about 15%, and could go higher once all the deaths from this month are counted.

That would mark the largest single-year percentage leap since 1918, when tens of thousands of US soldiers died in the first world war and hundreds of thousands of Americans died in a flu pandemic. Deaths rose 46% that year, compared with 1917.
where's jay now?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6364|eXtreme to the maX
On a Texas bow-hunting forum apparently.
Fuck Israel
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7030|PNW

I think Jay might have a bit of a blow-out temper. I remember merrily chatting it up with him about WW2 vehicles earlier this year. I don't remember if that was pre- or post- his first freakout of 2020. But just like that, gone. I don't think Hollis quit with a flame-rant, did he?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,815|6364|eXtreme to the maX
I think its a bit like this, but different context

https://i.imgur.com/hSIY0ee.jpg
Fuck Israel
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,741|6995|Cinncinatti
I keep seeing an old co-worker like anti covid stuff on LinkedIn and I keep reporting it.

The last one had #hitler
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7030|PNW

Who the hell uses their linkedin for their neo nazi stuff. Not that I've stuck around for it, but you'd figure it would Be Bad.
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,741|6995|Cinncinatti
It's not neonazi they're comparing masks to hitler
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7030|PNW

It was boomers who got me on linkedin anyway. Circle of contacts: latest and greatest business social media! Nobody used it. Basically another bookmark to keep someone else from making a profile in my name.
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|6943|United States of America

Dilbert_X wrote:

I think its a bit like this, but different context

https://i.imgur.com/hSIY0ee.jpg
Was that in response to the Rittenhouse shootings? I don't think I get it.
uziq
Member
+497|3710
https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/stat … 4734918657

this is literally modern britain under boris's lot.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+643|3978
Videos showing a group of maskless protesters decrying COVID-19 health guidelines at Phoenix's Christown Spectrum Mall went viral on Friday as Arizona, along with the rest of the country, continue to see a record number of new cases.
...
Jenny Guzman, one of the Target shoppers who took video of the protest, told The Arizona Republic, part of the USA TODAY Network, that she noticed people shouting near a group of Target security guards and drew closer to see what the commotion was about.

"I turned to look and then I saw people coming in, not wearing masks, with signs and a big giant American flag chanting and yelling — demanding that people take their masks off and just saying fallacies about wearing masks," Guzman said.

Guzman said that after she took the video, a teenage girl confronted her and demanded Guzman explain science to her. Guzman said the girl didn't elaborate on what kind of science she wanted, but shrugged her off as the girl followed and grilled her until another shopper pulled the girl away.
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/3990868001
"Explain science"
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg

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