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Larssen
Member
+55|691
Well the fact that a very large amount of your PMs all attended the same schools does indicate a persistent divide between a very elitist social class and everyone else. Oxford is a good uni, but places that are synonymous with breeding grounds for detached elitism have a lot of downsides too.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,715|4909|eXtreme to the maX
There I solved it.

https://i.imgur.com/aIOxHKV.jpg

You're welcome.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+379|2255

Larssen wrote:

Well the fact that a very large amount of your PMs all attended the same schools does indicate a persistent divide between a very elitist social class and everyone else. Oxford is a good uni, but places that are synonymous with breeding grounds for detached elitism have a lot of downsides too.
oxford and cambridge are like 70%+ state school students nowadays. the numbers of black/afro-caribbean students, too, for example, are way over-represented taken as a % of the population. beating on 'elite institutions' is an old and tiresome sport.

the real creator of divides and inequality is the expensive fee-paying school system before. that's how bloviating mediocrities like johnson and co rise to the top: connections and polish. they attend $50k/year schools that train them to be exam-eating machines and smooth talkers. the network of power and patronage extends all the way from rugger matches and schoolfields to gentlemen's clubs and retirement.
Larssen
Member
+55|691
How many of those students are internationals vs british? And how many of them have poor parents or parents that didn't attend oxford/one of the other top unis before them?
uziq
Member
+379|2255
i'm talking domestic students. you can read stories about their accessibility/opportunities drives anywhere on the internet. the universities are not the reason that a narrow set control all of british public life. it's the public school system, that's just a fact. there are layers and layers of snobbery embedded in the system. a state-school graduate of oxford probably won't be admitted to the same drawing rooms as a public schoolboy with a comparatively mediocre grade from the same university.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+431|2523
https://i.imgur.com/Ibua8tx.png
2 weeks after Thanksgiving we will be back to 9/11 a day death numbers.


Back in May I warned everyone that this wasn't over. They called me a mad man and wrote "JuSt TwO mOrE wEeKs"

https://64.media.tumblr.com/37cd4709bb3157bf1d034f473e9eb9d1/tumblr_pwys3h0guD1wnhmglo6_540.gifv
Larssen
Member
+55|691
The overall impact is less though as deaths are mostly concentrated in over 65-s, carehomes and some younger people with preexisting conditions. So while the numbers are staggering it's hard to compare it to something like vietnam or any other war, which exclusively affected generations of young men between 17 and 35 (40 tops).

Plus the fact that the lack of visuals like a twin tower collapse or flying bullets seems to make the whole thing harder to grasp for many...
uziq
Member
+379|2255
can we stop talking casually about over 65s as if they didn't matter? it's become a routine now to ask anyone grieving over the death of a loved one, particularly if younger, 'did they have any comorbidities'? as if that's the fucking point.

the overall impact is not 'less' because it isn't an easily televised disaster scenario. this is creating generational grief and trauma that will not be resolved for a long time. not to mention how the polarization and politicization of the issue will continue to mar discourse. the next 2-3 years will be dominated with covid narratives and inquiries, raw feelings, grief, public mourning, etc. the vaccine isn't going to magically disappear the deaths of millions of people.

Last edited by uziq (2020-11-25 08:17:10)

Larssen
Member
+55|691
Nobody is saying they don't matter, it's just a fact that within the family nucleus the death of someone over 65 is less impactful than that of a young adult. Contrast the funeral of a young person to that of grandma/grandpa, if we're talking raw emotion the previous are decidedly more grim events. The old have at least already lived their lives.

Yes, there will be / is trauma involved, but more than 50% of deaths are over 75 and another 20-30% or so over 65. Many of these people already on their way out. We'll survive that.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+431|2523
I fear that there will be no moment of national mourning or reflection in the U.S. Too many people will go to their graves thinking this was no big deal or a hoax or most horrifyingly feel that the people who died weren't important or deserved it. I knew we were screwed when NYC media was pointing out that a lot of people dropping dead in overcrowded hospitals were minorities. That made it okay in like half of the country's minds. A big failure in judgement on the medias part.
uziq
Member
+379|2255
Yes, there will be / is trauma involved, but more than 50% of deaths are over 75 and another 20-30% or so over 65. Many of these people already on their way out. We'll survive that.
this rhetoric really sucks, i'm sorry. 'they're on their way out'. a 65 year old still has a 1/4 of their life left.

why are we so callous and accepting of people who reach retirement age being bumped off by a virus? aren't we encouraged to work hard all of our lives, save, be prudent, be responsible, etc, so that we can enjoy life at that part? oh, no, wait, public health policy is effectively shifting so that the 65+ are 'expendables'. put them on the biological trash-heap!

it's really stupid. the failures have been mega and manifold. south korea have 500 deaths IN A YEAR. meanwhile you're parrotting stupid defeatist shit like 'oh well, 65s are basically dead anyway'. what a shit show.

Last edited by uziq (2020-11-25 08:52:08)

Larssen
Member
+55|691
If you start enjoying life at 65 you're doing it wrong.

I didn't call for any policy, merely stated that the death-by-numbers comparisons between historic wars and this pandemic may be right at face value but don't add up if we factor emotional toll and all.

SK is doing great, we don't/we didn't.
uziq
Member
+379|2255
'enjoy every day like it's your last ...' okay, thanks for the hallmark greeting card sentiments. i'll bear that in mind. do you have any other instagram-caption life philosophy for us?

our society invests and has invested enormous amounts of money and effort into preserving life well into the 80s and 90s (for better or for worse, that's a separate argument). the expectation is that we will live to grow old and see our grandchildren grow up, etc. now 65 is an acceptable benchmark? after the west has developed the most advanced, most expensive healthcare systems in the history of the world? now we shrug and start talking about 65 being 'a good age'? 65 isn't a good age to die in central africa. let's be fucking real here. it is an ENORMOUS failure and the biggest public health crisis since 1918.

SK is doing great, we don't/we didn't.
yes, well, let's keep it in good focus here, and stop shrugging at everything.

america, the world's richest nation, has done the worst by a catastrophic margin.

britain was funnelling covid-carrying old people out of hospital wards and into care homes.

the examples abound. it is a clusterfuck that deserves a huge public reckoning, when we're on the other side of this crisis.

Last edited by uziq (2020-11-25 09:56:05)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+431|2523
You would think a government bureaucrat would respect the idea of institutional knowledge and how old people dying is a serious organizational loss. Old people also do a lot of services that don't show up in GDP reports. Grandparents watch kids while the parents work for instance.

On a less serious note: Larssen is German. Why don't the Germans value human life?
Larssen
Member
+55|691
Me: "the familial/societal toll of losing tens or hundreds of thousands of young men in war is more devastating than the losses in this pandemic, as the vast majority are over 65s"

You: WhY dOn'T yOu VaLuE hUmAn LiFe YoU mOnStEr
Larssen
Member
+55|691
Also very rich coming from someone who watches war porn and gore in his spare time. So much respect for life there
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+431|2523

Larssen wrote:

Me: "the familial/societal toll of losing tens or hundreds of thousands of young men in war is more devastating than the losses in this pandemic, as the vast majority are over 65s"
Why is it always about war with you people?
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+756|5488|United States of America
It's not killing the right Boomers!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,868|5575|USA

Larssen wrote:

Nobody is saying they don't matter, it's just a fact that within the family nucleus the death of someone over 65 is less impactful than that of a young adult. Contrast the funeral of a young person to that of grandma/grandpa, if we're talking raw emotion the previous are decidedly more grim events. The old have at least already lived their lives.

Yes, there will be / is trauma involved, but more than 50% of deaths are over 75 and another 20-30% or so over 65. Many of these people already on their way out. We'll survive that.
A lot of people are saying or implying that they matter less, larssen. Your previous post even hinted that you might have similar views to these.

Not that it should matter, but there's people who aren't even retiring at 65. Imagine losing a relative in their 60s (or really any age) to the disease and having someone pat you on the back and say "well, a lot of old people die to covid-19." Like literally fuck off with that.

Obviously there are different dynamics at play between war deaths and pandemic deaths, but dead is dead. The comparison is brought up to communicate the loss to people who are still in denial about what's going on.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|5579|Moscow, Russia

uziq wrote:

it is a clusterfuck that deserves a huge public reckoning, when we're on the other side of this crisis.
Word. What kind of reckoning would you suggest? Please, don't tell me you'd demand they defund themselves.

Last edited by Shahter (2020-11-26 06:44:57)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
uziq
Member
+379|2255
do you know what defund the police even means in the mainstream context? it means divert funds away from troop APCs and fancy cutting-edge police weapons to mental health funding and community policing. it doesn't mean 'let's abolish law and order in our cities'. it means let's invest the tax money more wisely so that it makes more of an appreciable improvement to people's lives. the police are a quasi-militarized force playing with a bunch of hand-me-downs from the iraq-afghan wars.

get a clue. you're very good at parrotting bullshit but a very obstinate, silly man.

ironically the only people pushing hard to abolish police departments altogether were ... communists and anarchists.

Last edited by uziq (2020-11-26 07:08:16)

Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|5579|Moscow, Russia
you didn't answer my question though. what form would you suggest "a huge public reckoning" took?
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
uziq
Member
+379|2255
officials and ministers usually resign when they fuck up badly. the administration changes. there are inquiries. admittedly nothing is going to dig up the dead and get them dancing like lazarus, but accountability in public life is important.

we know that both the US and U.K. had extensive pandemic response plans in place even within the last decade. the bush administration produced a lengthy report and put in place an entire task force for this very reason. the U.K. was conducting large simulations and trials on a pandemic scenario (‘cygnus’) within the last decade too. what happened? why did both current administrations totally drop the ball? people deserve to know.

i know it’s not enough for you because your answer to every issue is ‘abolish capitalism and have a total revolution’. but a lot of people just want to know why their loved ones died last year, not to go and work on a collective farm.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,715|4909|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

do you know what defund the police even means in the mainstream context? it means divert funds away from troop APCs and fancy cutting-edge police weapons to mental health funding and community policing. it doesn't mean 'let's abolish law and order in our cities'. it means let's invest the tax money more wisely so that it makes more of an appreciable improvement to people's lives. the police are a quasi-militarized force playing with a bunch of hand-me-downs from the iraq-afghan wars.
For a lot of people it means cutting funding so the police can't disrupt their drug businesses.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+379|2255
yes, because of course 'a lot' of people have 'drug businesses', dilbert. 60% of BLM protestors nationwide are in fact street pushers.

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