Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6745|Moscow, Russia

uziq wrote:

you do realise almost every liberal, non-revolutionary, non-communist government in western europe has worker’s rights?
according to the law, yes. in russia we have all the same laws.
you do know that a legal citizen couldn’t be dismissed from their workplace in those circumstances just about, well, anywhere?
in russia they couldn't be lawfully dismissed for covid-19 at all. but there are many other ways to get rid of workers.
what sort of modern russia do you think putin’s opponents envisage?
it depends on the kind of opponents. those on western payroll envisage russia torn apart by civil war and ultimately broken into smaller parts along national lines. like yugoslavia.
perhaps they want to become more like turkmenistan?
there are those as well. fortunately, they are not very influential atm.
really make you wonder. anyway good luck. keep laughing when anyone who wants to change russia ends up in a red pool on the pavement.
there is a healthy leftist opposition to putin in russia, not very numerous at this time, unfortunately. they also, btw, get treated pretty roughly - i wander why doesn't it get reported by the free western press...
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
uziq
Member
+492|3422
it is reported how they get treated. just it is also reported that the left in russia suffers from all the old creakiness and factionalism of any old left anywhere -- something you're a pretty handy illustration of. 'these people don't match our doctrines exactly, let's leave them to hang and applaud putin's crackdowns on them'. about as useful as a cadre of trotskyites in islington.

why can't the employees in question take their unfair dismissal to a tribunal? to sue? to go to a union? etc. all these things are very common in the 'cut-throat capitalist evil west'.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6745|Moscow, Russia

uziq wrote:

it is reported how they get treated.
no, it isn't. unlike you, i speak both russian and (poor) english, so i can check for myself what happens and what gets reported. the choice of what is reported by western media is very telling.

just it is also reported that the left in russia suffers from all the old creakiness and factionalism of any old left anywhere -- something you're a pretty handy illustration of.
of course. anything to discredit the ideas that led to 1917 and 70 years of constant fear of it happening to themselves.

'these people don't match our doctrines exactly, let's leave them to hang and applaud putin's crackdowns on them'.
you have no idea what you are talking about. again. ask some of those russian nationals you, supposedly, have a shit ton around you to translate some of what navalny feeds his lemmings for you - you'll see for yourself.

why can't the employees in question take their unfair dismissal to a tribunal? to sue? to go to a union? etc.
all those options are available, just not very effective in a capitalist state.

Last edited by Shahter (2020-11-09 01:43:34)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
uziq
Member
+492|3422
they would be highly effective if you were summarily dismissed for falling ill. workers' employment contracts here have clauses explicitly forbidding this sort of thing. in fact, they are entitled to statutory sick pay, at their employer's expense.

life in a capitalist state eh!
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6745|Moscow, Russia

uziq wrote:

they would be highly effective if you were summarily dismissed for falling ill.
do you ever read what's posted for you? each of the workers has been told they'd be fired if they called for medical help and tested positive for covid-19 - that's, most likely, to avoid getting the warehouse shut down by government officials in charge of watcing the pandemic. what they'd be eventually fired for if they didn't heed that warning could easily be another thing entirely.

workers' employment contracts here have clauses explicitly forbidding this sort of thing. in fact, they are entitled to statutory sick pay, at their employer's expense.
exactly like it is here.

life in a capitalist state eh!
uh-huh.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
uziq
Member
+492|3422
ah right, okay, big difference, getting fired for alerting the authorities to covid at work, as opposed to being fired for being ill itself.

what a well-functioning system.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6745|Moscow, Russia

uziq wrote:

ah right, okay, big difference, getting fired for alerting the authorities to covid at work, as opposed to being fired for being ill itself.

what a well-functioning system.
uh-huh. capitalism is like that.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
So anyway, Australia now has fewer than 90 active cases, the rest of the world is in its third and largest wave by far.

What a time to be alive.

https://www2.bfi.org.uk/sites/bfi.org.uk/files/styles/full/public/image/mad-max-fury-road-2015-001-vehicles.jpg?itok=usIjvoHC
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3422
funny, isn't working like that here in the UK. lots of businesses in my city have had covid outbreaks, bosses have closed the shop, workers have been sent home, etc. nobody has been fired for the sin of catching the disease. that's what the state is there for, as well as insurance, etc.
uziq
Member
+492|3422

Dilbert_X wrote:

So anyway, Australia now has fewer than 90 active cases, the rest of the world is in its third and largest wave by far.

What a time to be alive.

https://www2.bfi.org.uk/sites/bfi.org.uk/files/styles/full/public/image/mad-max-fury-road-2015-001-vehicles.jpg?itok=usIjvoHC
australia has a population the same size as taiwan and has done appreciably worse. a giant barren rock who nobody except for england's rejects ever want to go to: who can be surprised it's going reasonably well?
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6745|Moscow, Russia

uziq wrote:

funny, isn't working like that here in the UK. lots of businesses in my city have had covid outbreaks, bosses have closed the shop, workers have been sent home, etc.
that's what most have done in russia as well. some, however, decided that their businesses are more important, than human lives.

nobody has been fired for the sin of catching the disease.
how do you know that? because there are no posts in the media telling otherwise?

that's what the state is there for, as well as insurance, etc.
capitalist state is there as a tool for capitalists.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
If we had closed the door on shit-smearing Indians we'd have done a whole lot better than Taiwan.

Thats how you get repaid for being kind to races.

#neveragain
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3422

Shahter wrote:

uziq wrote:

funny, isn't working like that here in the UK. lots of businesses in my city have had covid outbreaks, bosses have closed the shop, workers have been sent home, etc.
that's what most have done in russia as well. some, however, decided that their businesses are more important, than human lives.

nobody has been fired for the sin of catching the disease.
how do you know that? because there are no posts in the media telling otherwise?

that's what the state is there for, as well as insurance, etc.
capitalist state is there as a tool for capitalists.
because there would be outcry in the media if that happened, duh. people are free to litigate against or expose their employers here.

there has been plenty of press about businesses who did lay-off workers, especially ones in receipt of government largesse. it's not unheard of. but people being fired for catching or reporting covid? not so far as i know. seems extremely shady and very illegal. a business would be stupid to do such a thing.

oh right thanks. i didn't know any of these things about capitalism. i haven't read a book since i was 14. please tell me more about how capitalism works.
uziq
Member
+492|3422

Dilbert_X wrote:

If we had closed the door on shit-smearing Indians we'd have done a whole lot better than Taiwan.

Thats how you get repaid for being kind to races.

#neveragain
taiwan has had 500 cases and 7 deaths in a year. i doubt it.

community transmission occurred in australia outside of your much-talked-about indian case, no?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
https://i.imgur.com/2wZD1S4.png

https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/on … 818-p55mu7

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2020-11-09 02:36:41)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6745|Moscow, Russia

uziq wrote:

because there would be outcry in the media if that happened, duh. people are free to litigate against or expose their employers here.
orly? how does one expose and litigate against an employer over something said to him in private?

there has been plenty of press about businesses who did lay-off workers, especially ones in receipt of government largesse. it's not unheard of. but people being fired for catching or reporting covid? not so far as i know.
so you don't really know? okay.

please tell me more about how capitalism works.
keep reading books, you'll get there.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
uziq
Member
+492|3422
notice of termination has to be given in writing, duh. what good reason will they come up with for firing a worker with covid that isn't covid-related? one for the finest and most subtle of legal minds, no doubt ... time to lawyer up and keep a top City firm on retainer!

which book on capitalism do you recommend? please let me know about this marx thing. he was a comedian right?
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6745|Moscow, Russia

uziq wrote:

notice of termination has to be given in writing, duh. what good reason will they come up with for firing a worker with covid that isn't covid-related?
i don't know. maybe the goal is but intimidation - people are, understandably, very affraid of loosing their jobs atm.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
uziq
Member
+492|3422
jeez, it sure is hell living in the capitalist west and knowing that my employer needs a good reason to fire me. and i'll have redundancy pay! oh, terrible, terrible exploitation.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6745|Moscow, Russia
yep. very scary for any person who lives paycheck by paycheck.
i guess you don't personally know many warehouse workers, do you?
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
uziq
Member
+492|3422
at least 5 of my friends have lost their jobs during covid, from precariously-employed bar workers to salaried-services workers on $100k a year. it has cut across all of society and many people have been affected. the difference is that they do have appropriate workplace protection, redundancy schemes, legal protocols for notices of termination, etc.

of course, many people live from paycheck-to-paycheck. the number of people in the UK with <£1,000 in their savings is very high. and that includes many 'well-educated' middle-class professionals. try living in london and get back to me. you'd have to be very privileged indeed to be able to afford 2-3 months' rent and living costs there without any income.

i've read upton sinclair's 'the jungle' about meat-packing and warehouse workers. i know everything there is to know about workers. isn't that your basic attitude with regards to capitalism and your little marxist reading list?
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6745|Moscow, Russia
so not many warehouse workers then. okay.
i was one at one time. i also worked as a cook, a carpenter, a cloth cutter, a waiter, and after i finished my aducation i've been working as a network admin. and i can tell you, in this capitalist insanity we all have going, regardless of what it says in the fucking law or how good you think your unions are, when one is threatened to get fired, regardles of the reason, it always has profound effect. and that's not something you can understand by reading a book about it.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Larssen
Member
+99|1857
Having worked in the private sector I was also pressured to do things which my boss wasn't legally allowed to demand. I left and found another job, but safe to say if you protest they'll find a reason to either sideline or fire you.

As for covid though, there's deep moral and ethical considerations here and employers & employees respect government policy in that area. Nobody wants the pandemic to be worse than it already is.
uziq
Member
+492|3422

Shahter wrote:

so not many warehouse workers then. okay.
i was one at one time. i also worked as a cook, a carpenter, a cloth cutter, a waiter, and after i finished my aducation i've been working as a network admin. and i can tell you, in this capitalist insanity we all have going, regardless of what it says in the fucking law or how good you think your unions are, when one is threatened to get fired, regardles of the reason, it always has profound effect. and that's not something you can understand by reading a book about it.
wow! you sound like a protagonist from one of those very excellent soviet socialist realist novels! only in the pages of such literature can you find such a prodigious proletarian energy! a cook, a carpenter, a warehouse worker! this is truly a pilgrim's progress in the land of capitalist insanity!

you should write a book. don't forget to include the romantic sub-plot in which you fall hopelessly in love with your tractor!
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6745|Moscow, Russia
nah. never liked tractors, and neither i'm good at writing. i can cook a mean borsch though - not even a pudding eating mofo like you would say no to that.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2024 Jeff Minard