Announcement

Join us on Discord: https://discord.gg/nf43FxS
Discuss.
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+741|5370|United States of America
It is kind of the "shut up and dribble" response to scientists when they identify issues with society. I recall reading something about a medical organization talking about the widespread availability of guns as a factor in *surprise* the number of shootings in the US, and they were set upon by a throng of people accusing them of politicizing science with suggestions that are coincidentally, contrary to the pro-gun beliefs those people hold. Science and investigation aren't blind to things like this.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,865|5317|949

Shahter, I think we all agree that economic inequality is the broadest possible "fix" to racism in the world. That's been a foundation of the civil rights movement since its inceptionin the US. "Racial justice is economic justice".  The issue is how to get to economic justice in a system that is inherently inequal? How do you deal with a racist bank branch manager turning down someone for a loan based on the color of their skin? How do you upend the police force from racial profiling? How do you ensure a black person has equality of opportunity in an inequal system?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,697|4791|eXtreme to the maX
Can't they just go to another, non-racist, bank manager who would fall over themselves to loan money to a safe bet?
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+300|2137
it’s not the 1930s. you don’t get a loan from a bank manager based on your local standing in the town and a good relationship. there are systems in place, ratings, profiles, etc. that will automatically disqualify so-and-so.
Larssen
Member
+29|573

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Shahter, I think we all agree that economic inequality is the broadest possible "fix" to racism in the world. That's been a foundation of the civil rights movement since its inceptionin the US. "Racial justice is economic justice".  The issue is how to get to economic justice in a system that is inherently inequal? How do you deal with a racist bank branch manager turning down someone for a loan based on the color of their skin? How do you upend the police force from racial profiling? How do you ensure a black person has equality of opportunity in an inequal system?
The problem is that most activist groups end up getting stuck in the topic of representation. In the other thread someone linked a poster with demands, almost all of which were centred on the idea that a certain fixed % of managers and representatives ought to be black.

How could that ever help the average poor black guy living in a ghetto or project? Such measures only disproportionately advantages the few middle class & educated black people who have escaped these environments, and does nothing to improve these places. Maybe only indirectly in a far future. Moreover you will help create lots of resentment among poor & middle class white people / other ethnicities.

What needs to happen is simply direct investment in these poor backwaters. Schools in low income areas need to improve, as do social & policing services. Also provide incentives for startups and small business owners in the areas, more effective work programs that do not depend on multinationals who go in there more for wealth extraction than anything else. These are only some examples. Importantly, such programs don't even need to have a racial angle - by focusing on low income households and areas you will automatically target disadvantaged minorities as they disproportionately reside there.
uziq
Member
+300|2137
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,812|5457|USA

tremendous
uziq
Member
+300|2137
you're testing the most so you're winning tremendously. i love that jay was parroting that exact line for about 3 weeks. covid isn't actually bad in america, you're just testing lots and lots so it only seems that way. hahahaha
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,812|5457|USA

He needed to find a word to replace bigly with.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,812|5457|USA

According to worldometer, the US is second in tests, but not even in the top ten of tests/1M. Discussion of even the simplest nuanced statistics get blown away by some kind of plot armor erected around Trump by his supporters, along with even ghastly quotes from the man himself. There is also a disassociated focus on the economy as if it would not be impacted if we did nothing about the pandemic. It's impossible to have an argument about it without also talking about Clinton, Obama, local Democrats, taxes, "they hate us," etc.

The only counter comes from their arsenal: assume an air of vague disinterest and then randomly change the subject.

e: I remember bringing up a paper from like 2005 that talked about the potential threat of a coronavirus pandemic, but supposed that developed and wealthy nations would be right on top of it.

Ouch.
uziq
Member
+300|2137
yes there was a big study done in the mid-2000s that reviewed the 'pandemic response' or 'preparedness' of the world's nations. the USA (and the UK) were right near the very top; china was at the absolute bottom. lol.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+285|5460|Moscow, Russia

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

The issue is how to get to economic justice in a system that is inherently inequal?
short answer - you can't. capitalism is built on inequality, so the only way to go is change the whole system.
the long answer, as in "how to change the system and into what" - now that would be a question to answer, wouldn't it? i don't think you'll get that answer on these forums though, certainly not from me. start here i guess.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
uziq
Member
+300|2137
imagine unironically recommending marx in 2020.

it's not like the soviet union wasn't corrupt or unequal, and didn't have a nomenklatura that enjoyed benefits and riches kept away from the proletariat.

i think the modern-day chinese communist party could teach you stupid nostalgic stalinists a few things.
Larssen
Member
+29|573
Is jay still alive or has corona taken him in a second wave
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,812|5457|USA

Last I heard, Jay was busy tearing out his deck and replacing it with a private kindergarten.
uziq
Member
+300|2137
jay and macbeth mutually self-destructed when they doxx'd one another.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,865|5317|949

Larssen wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Shahter, I think we all agree that economic inequality is the broadest possible "fix" to racism in the world. That's been a foundation of the civil rights movement since its inceptionin the US. "Racial justice is economic justice".  The issue is how to get to economic justice in a system that is inherently inequal? How do you deal with a racist bank branch manager turning down someone for a loan based on the color of their skin? How do you upend the police force from racial profiling? How do you ensure a black person has equality of opportunity in an inequal system?
The problem is that most activist groups end up getting stuck in the topic of representation. In the other thread someone linked a poster with demands, almost all of which were centred on the idea that a certain fixed % of managers and representatives ought to be black.

How could that ever help the average poor black guy living in a ghetto or project? Such measures only disproportionately advantages the few middle class & educated black people who have escaped these environments, and does nothing to improve these places. Maybe only indirectly in a far future. Moreover you will help create lots of resentment among poor & middle class white people / other ethnicities.

What needs to happen is simply direct investment in these poor backwaters. Schools in low income areas need to improve, as do social & policing services. Also provide incentives for startups and small business owners in the areas, more effective work programs that do not depend on multinationals who go in there more for wealth extraction than anything else. These are only some examples. Importantly, such programs don't even need to have a racial angle - by focusing on low income households and areas you will automatically target disadvantaged minorities as they disproportionately reside there.
Ah yes, that sticky topic of representation. We should just invest in those downtrodden areas and cross our fingers that in 50 years those areas organically create leaders to represent them.

How could having people in decison-making roles that are representative of the experiences of an average black person benefit black people at large? Are you stupid? What you are suggesting is real policy that has been implemented. It doesn't work without supplemental action, one of those being representation on decision-making bodies.

You saw one poster on a door in New Orleans and went a little haywire. There's so much context to that specific demand in that specific area that needs to be unraveled for it to make sense to an average American, let alone a metropolitan European.

Ever heard of Harry Connick Jr? Look up his dad. Read up on Angola (the former plantation turned prison, not the African country). Louisiana is racist as shit by design. Forced representation is a band aid, an expedient solution, to be sure. But it's necessary in the near-term for any meaningful change.
uziq
Member
+300|2137
i'm confused that he condones violent protests but not the quick accession of black voices to governing bodies in their own communities?
Larssen
Member
+29|573
Let me state that if it comes to local and municipal or even national representation it's generally a good idea to have representatives that reflect the population at large in ideas, social standing and other background criteria - which tend to change over time. But entrenching those concepts in  laws of sorts, in which surface level qualifications such as "x % needs to be black/latino/asian" are serious selection requirements sounds like a horrible idea to me.

I oppose representation requirements full stop. While it may be somewhat effectual in appeasing current protestors, in making those policies you will create the perfect conditions for a massive pushback in the not too distant future. Trump 2.0 but probably worse. Moreover, all you're now arguing for is for representatives to have the most banal of traits (be X ethnic group) so that these people may then enact the exact policies I just wrote down. Worse, you're actually aiding the long-term entrenchment of existing ethnic identities and their further politicisation. Beyond the already extant quagmire surrounding this topic, which I know is already quite terrible in the US.

Controversial opinion perhaps but I'm perfectly fine with it taking 50 years and working more effectively from the ground up because most of all what these campaigns are and should be about is a change in cultural attitudes, which inherently takes a long time.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-08-04 15:24:24)

Larssen
Member
+29|573

uziq wrote:

i'm confused that he condones violent protests but not the quick accession of black voices to governing bodies in their own communities?
I don't fault protestors for being violent as it can be an effective means to an end in the grand scheme of things. Doesn't mean I condone it - but that kinda depends on what side you're on. Speaking as a policy drone, the state has a duty to safeguard security, law and order. But the fact that there are widespread sustained violent protests should be cause for some honest reflection on how well of a job the state is doing in those respects, and if it is addressing the right problems.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-08-04 15:29:16)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,697|4791|eXtreme to the maX
Lets use the reductio ad hitleram argument - Hitler sent out his brownshirts to parade, riot and physically attack anyone who disagreed with them and their radical agenda - but it was OK because their national socialist unity agenda was the right one for the vast majority of germans - in their opinion and never minding a few irrelevant minorities who had historical blood on their hands.

And it got the job done so obviously it was justified, the govt of the day was clearly doing a bad job but at least had the decency to cave in to violence and threats and shut down democracy - for the greater good.
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+300|2137
no surprises the person who derides the discipline of history can only produce the most awful analogies.

are BLM members lynching and murdering their opponents in the street? do BLM members go into bars and smash them up, and beat up their patrons who are known trump supporters?

i can’t even be bothered to explain to you the difference between a paramilitary organization associated with the government/ruling elite and a protest movement.

Last edited by uziq (2020-08-05 01:35:24)

Larssen
Member
+29|573
Dilbert, if BLM organised into a uniformed militia, started deploying hit & run tactics on republican & ALM conventions, started intimidating people at voting booths during election time and considered faking terror attacks, and if the underlying ideology was deeply fascist, aggressive and exclusionary you'd have a point. But you don't as it's a reductio ad absurdum.

Non sanctioned and disorganised pockets of violent protestors who do little more than throw fireworks and smash windows while clashing with police do not fit this sort of comparison. Someone pelting a water bottle at riot police isn't exactly a brownshirt.

Anyway, in the historical comparison you'd be quite justified in asking a similar question: how well of a job was the state doing in upholding security, and did it address the right problems? Did some policies of the Weimar Republic perhaps help the rise of Hitler?
uziq
Member
+300|2137
ironically several state-level prosecutors in bavaria and elsewhere did try to take legal action against the brownshirts, but quickly found that the local police forces were colluding with them in their extra-legal murder, and that the corruption went all the way up to the state attorney (or equivalent), who were thoroughly 'nazified'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Litten
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Litt … Eden_Trial

truly a great comparison to BLM and the status of black african-americans in the USA.

Last edited by uziq (2020-08-05 01:36:56)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,697|4791|eXtreme to the maX
The point is its dangerous to say violence and intimidation are justified as long as your cause is the right one.

I'm seeing no solution, throwing money at it, affirmative action etc have never achieved anything.

Giving special privileges to one ethnic group creates more problems than it solves.

The various ethnic groups will become steadily more isolated and paranoid.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2020-08-05 02:39:39)

Epstein didn't kill himself

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2020 Jeff Minard