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uziq
Member
+284|2090
because you are talking about how capitalism is a system based on greed that distorts everything around it? well what is putin's russia, then? what was the soviet union? are you honestly telling me that journalism in the soviet union was better? HAHA.

and, again, i know plenty about russian literary culture and arts. i've read lots, including formalists and theorists like propp and todorov (after bakhtin). just because i haven't read every bestselling work of socialist realist literature, in which little igor goes to the big city and realises that he's been in love with his tractor back home on the farm all along, doesn't mean i am clueless. and i can talk to you a lot about the artists that the soviet union deserted, exiled, ruined, destroyed. are you really telling me you think sholokhov is better than the mandelstams? how many party hacks are worth one anna akhmatova? you are deluded.

Last edited by uziq (2020-07-30 14:45:57)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,808|5410|USA

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

What's the point of CNN reporting this? Yes, we all know those positions are nonsense. This does nothing to further any rational discussion.
Its important to know your President is nuts and there's no point attempting rational discussion with him,  I think.

Although the lizard thing is true.

Except no other respected news site covered it like that.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-53579773
https://www.9news.com.au/world/donald-t … -politics/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technolo … e-doctors/
https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2020/0 … nald-trump

Thats my point- CNN as a news org is as good (read: bad) as Fox.
LOL OK, not that I really watch CNN since it seemed to be given over to hour-long monologues by Annanpour
Thank you. You can clearly see none of those news sites/articles are reporting in the same way CNN is. I'm glad you were able to distinguish the nuance between how those sites are reporting this vs. CNN.
The CNN is a colorful infographic screencap from a broadcast. The other four are articles. Vanity Fair splutters "Okay. Wow. All Right. Okay. “Demon Sperm,” Now? Fine!" Anyway, apples to oranges. I think if people want to "know more" after seeing the CNN bit, they could just, you know, look it up on their phones.

It's amazing to me that the takeaway here is CNN's slant or simplistic(?) presentation, and not the leader of the free world shacking up with a wacky exorcist for pandemic advice or whatever.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,861|5270|949

You should reread my original post. I even made a point to say I'm not trivializing trumps stupid behavior or rhetoric.

The takeaway is that CNN is failing as a news org and molding itself into a counter to Fox News in some sort of bizarre political arena. Literally said that in one of my posts as well, but it sounds like you want to be upset about something so I don't blame you for missing that key part and focusing instead on my criticism of CNN.

That Vanity Fair piece is hardly Good Reporting (it's not trying to be- it's commentary!) but at least they reference Good Reporting in linking to a dailybeast piece that does a decent job putting this particular example of Trump being stupid into a broader context.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,808|5410|USA

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

You should reread my original post. I even made a point to say I'm not trivializing trumps stupid behavior or rhetoric.

The takeaway is that CNN is failing as a news org and molding itself into a counter to Fox News in some sort of bizarre political arena. Literally said that in one of my posts as well, but it sounds like you want to be upset about something so I don't blame you for missing that key part and focusing instead on my criticism of CNN.

That Vanity Fair piece is hardly Good Reporting (it's not trying to be- it's commentary!) but at least they reference Good Reporting in linking to a dailybeast piece that does a decent job putting this particular example of Trump being stupid into a broader context.
The CNN infographic has dailybeast literally printed right there. Want to read dailybeast? Go to the website. Anyway, your original post (that I know of):

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

What's the point of CNN reporting this? Yes, we all know those positions are nonsense. This does nothing to further any rational discussion.
Weird how Trump slips out of focus like a greased hot dog when the opportunity to criticize CNN comes along. I'm not even particularly defending CNN, it's just this, whatever this is, that I'm reacting to. I get that you agree that her ideas are nonsense, but it still feels like that wasn't your issue.

Anyway, it's just the format. Who's going to squint at a three page article on their television. For crying out loud there's even a ticker at the bottom.

Here's a CNN article:

Republicans openly challenge Trump's tweet on delaying election
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/30/politics … index.html
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,694|4744|eXtreme to the maX

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Weird how Trump slips out of focus like a greased hot dog when the opportunity to criticize CNN comes along. I'm not even particularly defending CNN, it's just this, whatever this is, that I'm reacting to. I get that you agree that her ideas are nonsense, but it still feels like that wasn't your issue.
The US President consulting a witch-doctor over the worst threat to America since WW2 is hardly a big deal, the real story here is CNNs editorial policy.
Epstein didn't kill himself
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,694|4744|eXtreme to the maX

KarEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Thank you. You can clearly see none of those news sites/articles are reporting in the same way CNN is. I'm glad you were able to distinguish the nuance between how those sites are reporting this vs. CNN.
They all seemed much the same, I don't care anyway.

Also, how many followers does the Daily Beast need to have before its considered to be mainstream media?
Epstein didn't kill himself
uziq
Member
+284|2090
ken has a point, CNN has got noticeably stupider in its post-trump repositioning as a ‘gotcha!’ equivalent to fox news et al. but c’mon, the picture is funny. i linked it because of the sheer insanity of the situation. CNN is not the important screaming fact here.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,694|4744|eXtreme to the maX
CNN has been painfully boring for about a decade.
Epstein didn't kill himself
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,861|5270|949

There was a clear slippage in the quality of mainstream media right around 9/11 and the advent of the 24 hour news cycle. Layer in the
accessibility of the internet, which brought the ability to distribute information in a more direct way, and the move for platforms like Facebook to become information peddlers, and we have the current status where people are locked in information silos- promoting quack medicine, anti-science hokum, memes that lead to real violence, etc.

CNN's reporting (and the degradation of MSM in general) is not a byproduct of the current political economy. It's one of the catalysts.

Trump is a shit person. CNN is a shit organization. I'm capable enough to deal in multiple criticisms at once. This particular criticism is geared towards the media. I don't think i should have to make a post with a caveat that Trump is bad before i can criticize the reporting on Trump's nonsense, but i will next time!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,808|5410|USA

You don't need a caveat or a disclaimer or any of that. We already know your opinion of Trump. I just thought it was an interesting direction this thread took as opposed to the reality where Trump aligns with a witch doctor minister with a medical license. This would be noteworthy even if we weren't in the middle of a pandemic.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,861|5270|949

ya and it should be reported in earnest.
uziq
Member
+284|2090
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+284|5414|Moscow, Russia
virtue signaling is strong with that one.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
uziq
Member
+284|2090
oh shut the fuck up. you’re a grown man using phrases like ‘virtue signalling’. jesus christ.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+284|5414|Moscow, Russia

Awsm article by a dude who's a staff writer at The Atlantic, where he covers science. wrote:

Racist policies that have endured since the days of colonization and slavery left Indigenous and Black Americans especially vulnerable to COVID‑19.
...
No one should be shocked that a liar who has made almost 20,000 false or misleading claims during his presidency would lie about whether the U.S. had the pandemic under control; that a racist who gave birth to birtherism would do little to stop a virus that was disproportionately killing Black people; that a xenophobe who...
blah blah blah blah
that's covering science? k.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
uziq
Member
+284|2090
epidemiology is precisely the science concerned with tracking disease spreads, according to locale, demographics, economics, etc. you do know that infectious disease spread and public health correlates with wealth/poverty, amongst many other dynamics, right? that certain living conditions are more conducive to contagion than others? that some groups are either genetically or else chronically predisposed to illnesses? how about communities which live in areas with poor air quality, because, say, for instance, urban planning and approval for waste management facilities or power plants tends to consign them to areas with low income? and low income, in a country with systemic racism, as pertained in jim crow-era america, correlates thus with race? what does this mean for a respiratory illness such as covid, where lethality correlates with air quality/pollution? what happens in a country where healthcare is so closely tied into earnings, private employment, ability to pay/ability to insure, etc.?

none of this is complicated. yes, it is science. it involves data, observation, modelling, planning. look it up, it's all on wikipedia for you. or maybe that's a bias western capitalist source too?!?

do you think it's an accident that so many black americans have died of covid relative to their white compatriots? or maybe it is because they have big dicks and white men have big brains? that's your type of science, right?

and i see nothing wrong with a journalist concerned with public health and science pointing out that a president who has broken all fact-checking counters during his tenure has presided over a leadership which is mendacious and obfuscatory when it comes to scientific data and facts; and that you can't lie or media spin your way out of a lethal pandemic. for you to say that it is 'virtue signalling' suggests to me you have some sort to rot in your brain. that's not what virtue signalling even is. go practice your amateur culture wars bullshit.

Last edited by uziq (2020-08-03 11:37:42)

Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+284|5414|Moscow, Russia

uziq wrote:

epidemiology is precisely the science concerned with tracking disease spreads, according to locale, demographics, economics, etc. you do know that infectious disease spread and public health correlates with wealth/poverty, amongst many other dynamics, right? that certain living conditions are more conducive to contagion than others? that some groups are either genetically or else chronically predisposed to illnesses? how about communities which live in areas with poor air quality, because, say, for instance, urban planning and approval for waste management facilities or power plants tends to consign them to areas with low income? and low income, in a country with systemic racism, as pertained in jim crow-era america, correlates thus with race? what does this mean for a respiratory illness such as covid, where lethality correlates with air quality/pollution? what happens in a country where healthcare is so closely tied into earnings, private employment, ability to pay/ability to insure, etc.?
you are describing stuff rather nicely, but none of that^ is in the article - just "Racist policies that left Indigenous and Black Americans especially vulnerable to COVID‑19"-schtick.

none of this is complicated. yes, it is science.
no, it is not. it's appealing to emotions - the opposite of science.

do you think it's an accident that so many black americans have died of covid relative to their white compatriots?
it's impossible to count at this stage. anybody who claims to have data to conclusively state stuff like that^ is either an idiot or a manipulator. or both.
that said, i fully expect, when the actual data is in, to there be more dead blacks than whites in usa - it's an economic reality of the place. blacks and other poc's, on average, are economically worse that the whites, sure, but i have yet to see anybody conclusively demonstrate that that's the case because of "racist policies that have endured since the days of colonization". have you?

and i see nothing wrong with a journalist concerned with public health and science pointing out that a president who has...
blah blah blah
well, i'm pretty sure we have it well established at this point that we have very different notions of what constitutes proper journalism. you are welcome to read into that bullshit all you want, all i see is another dipshit virtue siglaling.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,861|5270|949

Shahter wrote:

do you think it's an accident that so many black americans have died of covid relative to their white compatriots?
it's impossible to count at this stage. anybody who claims to have data to conclusively state stuff like that^ is either an idiot or a manipulator. or both.
that said, i fully expect, when the actual data is in, to there be more dead blacks than whites in usa - it's an economic reality of the place. blacks and other poc's, on average, are economically worse that the whites, sure, but i have yet to see anybody conclusively demonstrate that that's the case because of "racist policies that have endured since the days of colonization". have you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining
https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873
https://www.ussc.gov/research/research- … sentencing
https://www.demos.org/blog/new-hud-repo … ople-color
https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=dcdetail&iid=251

You have to look for it in order to find it.
uziq
Member
+284|2090
racist policies have left african americans in reduced circumstances. it’s not only economic inequality but also an inequality in access to healthcare (how could it not be in private healthcare USA?) poor people have worse diets, tend to be employed in frontline essential services, etc. the higher risks and increased comorbidities quickly stack up — as is evidenced by the death statistics!

all of this is explicitly political in america. why would your analysis stop at ‘well black people have far more chronic health problems than whites, so that’s why they’re dying more’. erm, how about WHY? is that so?!?

stop being dense. you like to style yourself as a wizened cynic who knows it all, so apply some of that vast russian mind.

Last edited by uziq (2020-08-03 12:23:54)

Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+284|5414|Moscow, Russia
@KEN: thank you, that's a lot. some of that i've seen before i think (black sounding names), but i'll have a read anyway.

@KEN, zeek: which of those are actually policies though? like, written into the law, into police and court practices? how does one tell political issues from economical? after all is said and done, is there an actual difference? which of the problems described could not be fixed by giving the supposedly oppressed and discriminated against better education, housing, social care, medical care - on par with everybody else? wouldn't the rest - public perception for example - inevitably follow? from where i stand i see no reason to keep beating on the "racism" drum anymore - worse, it sure looks like it's having the opposite effect.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
uziq
Member
+284|2090
"i'm a commie" says the guy who can't see the link between the legal-political institutions of slavery, jim crow, segregation, etc, and the economic result. bro do you even do historical materialism?
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+284|5414|Moscow, Russia
"legal-political institutions of slavery, jim crow, segregation, etc" - are all things of the past. they are the cause of the problem that's in the past. today the system is based on economic means of coercion - so the problems of "racism" are, imo, definitely economic.

yes, i do historical materialism.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
uziq
Member
+284|2090
i'm sorry but how the fuck are you separating systems of economic exploitation and forced subalternity from economic disadvantage?

you do know that poverty is generational, right? that inequality in the states has been growing, not decreasing? people on the bottom in 1965 are overwhelmingly likely to still be on the bottom of society in the present. not to mention the fact that attitudes, values, hiring practices, opportunities, and 'informal' racism didn't end with the abolition of jim crow. the civil rights movement didn't achieve decisive victory and stop during the era of lyndon johnson. are you fucking kidding?

why are black people overwhelmingly more likely to go to prison and receive custodial sentences? why are they treated with harsher legal penalties for common offences, like drug possession, than their white compatriots? if the only form of racism is economic?

you can google even the most perfunctory stats and get a clear view of the picture. if you're a 'historical materialist', then stop bullshitting me. why the fuck are you talking about 'virtue signalling' when someone points out how economic disadvantage is class-based and also hence, in america, a country founded on an economic system of literal slavery, race-based? are you seriously telling me that the economic fate of people in russia today isn't influenced at all by their ethnic or social class origins? the late 20th century is not 'ancient history' in the west. have you even read engels' works on the english working class and factory workers? and you don't believe that economic exploitation and inequality persists, or has its own inertia or self-perpetuating force? that people 'emancipated' decades ago shouldn't have any excuse today? did you understand nothing of marx/engels?

Last edited by uziq (2020-08-03 13:57:56)

Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+284|5414|Moscow, Russia
i'm not separating anything. my point is simply that past is in the past. the current economic situation of those who descended from black slaves is based in the past, yes, but it's not the main factor that keeps the inequality going on today. if the slavers of the past didn't find blacks in africa to serve as cheap workforce they would have found other people for the purpose. race has no distinct function here, it's just a historical circumstance - had all people on earth been white slavery in america would have had happened still, only with white slaves.
now, has race been used as an oppression tool after formal abolition of slavery? of course. those, who would build their fortunes on others' backs would use anything, as history clearly demonstrates. do they still try to use this tool? yes i'd say so.
however, it seems to me that in the fight for equality today some people spend too much effort on trying to correct mistakes of the past that have no bearing on the present whatsoever. toppling confederate statues? they are, quite literally, tilting at windmills.
fix economic inequality and the rest will follow, i say.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
uziq
Member
+284|2090
lol ok. if the past is in the past then get over your soviet nostalgia and stop engaging with the present using teenage 'capitalism is bad k' critiques.

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