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KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
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Co-founder of Turning Point USA also died from complications of COVID-19.
RTHKI
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+1,687|5491|Oxferd Ohire
I am amused
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Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+294|5530|Moscow, Russia

uziq wrote:

can you really not see the difference between a political elite controlling the media towards their own political ends, and capitalists who want to enrich themselves?
there is no difference.

do you think putin only seeks permanent power for himself because he wants to enrich his bank account? do you think that's the only danger that poses to national and international order?
putin is a talking head. he's nothing without capitalist elite he is a part of. just like donald trump. or boris johnson. or any other tool that gets "democratically elected" with the help of your so called "free press".

power and wealth might be related but they are NOT the same thing.
in a capitalist world power and capital - capital, not wealth - are the same thing.

sorry but this 'no truth so long as capitalism exists' shit is teenaged bullshit.
believe whatever allows you to sleep at night - freedom of the press under capitalism, rupert murdoch who only uses his information manipulation tools for fair commercialism or santa bringing you presents. good evening.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
uziq
Member
+343|2206
except most of the journalists and investigative reporting behind, say, russia's influence on western elections, have been working for volunteer or not-for-profit organisations, not giant corporate conglomerates. by the way, why does putin want to destabilise the west if he's just a talking head for capitalism? isn't becoming a pariah state, uh, bad for business?
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+294|5530|Moscow, Russia

uziq wrote:

except most of the journalists and investigative reporting behind, say, russia's influence on western elections, have been working for volunteer or not-for-profit organisations, not giant corporate conglomerates.
how do you know that? because they told you?
by the way, why does putin want to destabilise the west if he's just a talking head for capitalism? isn't becoming a pariah state, uh, bad for business?
why does trumt impose tariffs on china? it's definitely bad for business.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Larssen
Member
+44|642
Shahter operates from the base assumption that anyone in any sort of position of authority is corrupt and greed-driven. Any sort of evidence to the contrary is discarded.

Makes life simple I guess.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-07-30 12:18:31)

Larssen
Member
+44|642

Shahter wrote:

putin is a talking head..
Lmao no. Leaders of countries are 1000x more influential and powerful than CEO's of xx billion dollar companies. Only exceptions being dirt poor states like Liberia. Putin doesn't bow to gazprom, gazprom bows to putin, and ideally interests align.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+294|5530|Moscow, Russia
capitalism rewards corrupt and greed-driven people more that those, who aren't - shit literally rises to the top because the only criterion by which everything is measured under capitalism is growth of the capital. you may work against that of course, and i do encourage everybody to do so if able, but please don't tell me there's a rupert murdoch out there who actually respects freedom of the press principals, okay?
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+294|5530|Moscow, Russia

Shahter wrote:

putin is a talking head. he's nothing without capitalist elite he is a part of.
notice the word "elite" there, and not "ceo".
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Larssen
Member
+44|642
And who's that dear shahter? There is no grand overseer who controls the market. That's a global monstrosity subject to the tug-of-war between nations and regional organisations. The only parties who can pretend to have some true influence over market movements are the US Federal Reserve and the POTUS, the ECB and the European Council, and the CCP. They have the economic and legislative weight to at least somewhat control the world economies. But as you may know, these parties don't exactly see eye-to-eye.

You think it's the banks? From personal experience when goldman sachs came to my country's permanent representative to the EU during the start of Brexit negotiations that was only a blip on the radar in policy development. It still is, and always was, sovereign states making things happen. Why do you think narcissistic billionnaire blowhards like bloomberg and trump aspire to the presidency? Because it holds power these guys didn't have.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+294|5530|Moscow, Russia
no, there's no grand overseer. there is ruling class - bourgeoisie  atm - which realizes its interests in the form of sovereign states you mentioned, or conglomerations of those, like EU. narcissistic billionaires my ass.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Larssen
Member
+44|642
I don't think you appreciate just how many various interests groups try to have some sort of influence on policy development, some more succesful than others. This 'ruling class' whatever that is - is it the policy officers? The diplomats? The politicians? World leaders? F500 CEO's + the 1000s of semi-big companies inbetween? The academics & professors? All of the above? They rarely if ever agree on anything. Especially when there's national borders dividing them.
uziq
Member
+343|2206

Shahter wrote:

but please don't tell me there's a rupert murdoch out there who actually respects freedom of the press principals, okay?
nobody has ever, ever said this?

you reason like a teenager. 'capitalism is an ideology of greed! everything is bad!'

i suppose the soviet union was better, where writers wrote socialist realist literature and the truth itself was samizdat.

Last edited by uziq (2020-07-30 13:10:29)

Larssen
Member
+44|642
There is nothing more depressing than soviet art, in any discipline. The people who created that stuff must've been beaten to a pulp all their lives. From literature to architecture.
uziq
Member
+343|2206
all the interesting stuff was forced to leave or murdered.  corrupted by greed and capitalism, you see.

there’s a book about the life of limonov which gives a very amusing picture of the arts and avant-garde under the USSR.

Last edited by uziq (2020-07-30 13:36:38)

Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+294|5530|Moscow, Russia
capitalism with all of it's internal problems is indeed pretty bad. and no, it doesn't really do free press - it would be counterproductive to just let people know exactly how shit is done by their ruling class.

soviet union had very good writes. mikhail sholokhov - a socialist realist - even got a nobel prize for literature.

as for samizdat, i'm pretty sure you've never seen a piece, let alone read it - you don't speak russian, do you? - so you must be pulling shit out of your "free press" again. which, as you might have guessed, i don't really care for, so whatever.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
uziq
Member
+343|2206
i worked as the editor to the tolstoy family for a few years, and samizdat was largely printed in places like paris and london for western eyes. i think i know a few things about russian literary culture.

why would you name sholokhov as the notable nobel prize winner and not, erm, gorky? by the way?

Last edited by uziq (2020-07-30 13:45:39)

Larssen
Member
+44|642
Fuck sakes shahter anyone who wants to start a newspaper or blog can actually do so. It's a major contributor to the proliferation of fake news because modern social media acts like a sort of butterfly effect to all the shit that's churned out and shared by dimwitted individuals. It's literally a free playing field.

Proper, respected news sources put some effort in corroborating their sources. Investigative journalism has an established reputation for a reason. When the guardian, economist, WaPo, der spiegel, le monde come out with large front page articles on a subject they usually have done their due diligence. The panama papers, the snowden leaks, the MH17 trail, only being some examples, were meticulously pieced together by these news organisations.

The above doesn't mean they're perfect - they too make mistakes, have obvious political leanings - but at the very least there's a track record of trustworthy reporting, for some going back over a century.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-07-30 13:46:13)

Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+294|5530|Moscow, Russia
more than an actual russian who have been immersed in that literary culture for all his life? so much more that you are giving one a lecture here?
k.

Last edited by Shahter (2020-07-30 13:46:39)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
uziq
Member
+343|2206
a lot of the biggest scoops and hardest hitting investigative journalism is done by unaffiliated journalists who publish their data for free. it even skips all the editorial-masthead and institutional biases that you get with a WaPo or der spiegel. think pro publica or even, before the rot, orgs like wikileaks. there is no way you can spin those as being corrupted by a profit-motive or capitalism.
uziq
Member
+343|2206

Shahter wrote:

more than an actual russian who have been immersed in that literary culture for all his life? so much more that you are giving one a lecture here?
k.
i’m not giving you a lecture. i don’t care much for russian literature at all. as i said, it seems to me that all the interesting writers left as emigres, having the good sense to go to paris, berlin, new york, london, etc. but i do know about russian literary history and the artistic culture there. so do shut up about how capitalism befouls all art. the soviet union literally destroyed half of its artists.
Larssen
Member
+44|642
I believe most of these publications often publish stuff from freelance journalists and others, of course after lots of fact checking.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-07-30 13:52:29)

uziq
Member
+343|2206

Larssen wrote:

I believe most of these publications often publish stuff from freelance journalists and others, of course after lots of fact checking.
er yes, but papers do have editorial processes. they publish things in line with their institutional outlook and values. they have commissioning editors and sub-editors who only commission work from freelancers that accords with their own standards. it’s subtle but it works as a form of self-censorship. so there is a distinction to be made between papers that are editorially ‘curated’ (yes, to please their owners and their advertisers/readership), and purely not-for-profit orgs who don’t have to worry about, say, a deep exposé upsetting one of their main advertisers or clients.
Larssen
Member
+44|642
Makes sense, though a lot of non profits that publish original research have been under fire lately for their political timing/motivations. Think amnesty, human rights watch, but also more journalism/whistleblowing groups like wikileaks.

I digress though because personally I don't care as long as these groups have a modicum of respect for basic facts and can construct actual reasoned arguments.

Wikileaks might be the worst example as especially with assange's involvement they seriously manipulated the topics they tackled.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+294|5530|Moscow, Russia

uziq wrote:

i don’t care know much for about russian literature at all.
fixed it for you.

as i said, it seems to me that all the interesting writers left as emigres, having the good sense to go to paris, berlin, new york, london, etc. but i do know about russian literary history and the artistic culture there.
there we go - an opinion. about those, who left and did their "russian literary history and the artistic culture" in paris, berlin, new york, london, etc. a can respect that. just don't talk to me about those, who stayed and worked in their homeland with and for the people, were hugely popular around the world, and of whom you clearly don't know much.

so do shut up about how capitalism befouls all art.
why do you keep putting words in my mouth? you are clearly an intelligent person - why so petty and dishonest? when have i ever said capitalism befouls all art? or has journalism become art all of a sudden?
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.

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