BF2S Forums Pandemic thread

uziq wrote:

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

So is being pro-big business a leftist thing?

It can be, depending on the motivations. Your goal, like the Nazis, was to bring big business under political control. Sure, they left the owners in charge and allowed them to keep some profit, but it was always with the understanding that the party was really running things. When you heavily regulate an industry, you reach a point where any business has become effectively nationalized. The Nazis had roughly the same motivation as the Soviets in that they wanted to control everything. The difference is the Nazis maybe recognized their limitations and deferred to the business experts to run things more efficiently than purely political control could. The Soviets killed tens of millions of their own people indirectly by killing off all their industry experts.

The Democrats did the same thing with Obamacare. They left the insurance companies in place to be the face of the healthcare industry and receive all the grievances. In exchange for having their plans and coverage and profits dictated to them by HHS, the insurance companies got to do what they went into the business for in the first place, they get to keep taking all of our premiums and investing them in short term securities, and keeping the profit on that. We are effectively living in a single payer environment right now. Also, nothing improved. Thanks Obama.

whahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

the communists abolished private property, jay. pretty fucking hot take to say they are 'pro big business'.

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

It can be, depending on the motivations. Your goal, like the Nazis, was to bring big business under political control. Sure, they left the owners in charge and allowed them to keep some profit, but it was always with the understanding that the party was really running things. When you heavily regulate an industry, you reach a point where any business has become effectively nationalized. The Nazis had roughly the same motivation as the Soviets in that they wanted to control everything. The difference is the Nazis maybe recognized their limitations and deferred to the business experts to run things more efficiently than purely political control could. The Soviets killed tens of millions of their own people indirectly by killing off all their industry experts.

The Democrats did the same thing with Obamacare. They left the insurance companies in place to be the face of the healthcare industry and receive all the grievances. In exchange for having their plans and coverage and profits dictated to them by HHS, the insurance companies got to do what they went into the business for in the first place, they get to keep taking all of our premiums and investing them in short term securities, and keeping the profit on that. We are effectively living in a single payer environment right now. Also, nothing improved. Thanks Obama.

Wow, a lot to unpack there. I am not going to bother to explain what leftism is or is not. I couldn't care less.

I just want you to know: When you call the Nazis leftist, you sound really stupid to people who know a lot about the war. I don't mean people who can name battles and know what tanks are what. But to people who are familiar with the context of events and historical significance of things. Calling the Nazis leftist just goes to show that you totally don't understand a lot of decisions that the Nazis made and the context of their actions. Especially when it comes to the Eastern Front of the war.

Oh, I'm fully aware of the difference between the two. But it wasn't left wing vs right wing. It was left vs harder left. Everything depends on your point of view. Most people who write histories tend to be leftists. From their perspective, everything to the right of them is right wing, and everything to to the left of them is left wing. I am coming from a point of view that believes in freedom in both business and person. You come from a point of view that hates freedom and wants to dominate and control both businesses and persons. From where I'm standing, the differences between the Nazis and the Soviets is a sliver it would be difficult to shine a light through. To me, they're arguing about the difference between Blue and Indigo.

So hey, if it makes me look stupid to leftists, I'm ok with that.

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:

Jay wrote:

It can be, depending on the motivations. Your goal, like the Nazis, was to bring big business under political control. Sure, they left the owners in charge and allowed them to keep some profit, but it was always with the understanding that the party was really running things. When you heavily regulate an industry, you reach a point where any business has become effectively nationalized. The Nazis had roughly the same motivation as the Soviets in that they wanted to control everything. The difference is the Nazis maybe recognized their limitations and deferred to the business experts to run things more efficiently than purely political control could. The Soviets killed tens of millions of their own people indirectly by killing off all their industry experts.

The Democrats did the same thing with Obamacare. They left the insurance companies in place to be the face of the healthcare industry and receive all the grievances. In exchange for having their plans and coverage and profits dictated to them by HHS, the insurance companies got to do what they went into the business for in the first place, they get to keep taking all of our premiums and investing them in short term securities, and keeping the profit on that. We are effectively living in a single payer environment right now. Also, nothing improved. Thanks Obama.

whahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

the communists abolished private property, jay. pretty fucking hot take to say they are 'pro big business'.

Are you illiterate? I said that they wanted the same goal, state control. One did it by abolishing private property, the other did it by exerting complete political control. In the end, total control by the state was enacted.

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

Oh, I'm fully aware of the difference between the two. But it wasn't left wing vs right wing. It was left vs harder left. Everything depends on your point of view. Most people who write histories tend to be leftists. From their perspective, everything to the right of them is right wing, and everything to to the left of them is left wing. I am coming from a point of view that believes in freedom in both business and person. You come from a point of view that hates freedom and wants to dominate and control both businesses and persons. From where I'm standing, the differences between the Nazis and the Soviets is a sliver it would be difficult to shine a light through. To me, they're arguing about the difference between Blue and Indigo.

So hey, if it makes me look stupid to leftists, I'm ok with that.

Basically, the government controlling anything is leftism and when the government doesn't control anything that is rightism?

Largely, in America at least, yes. Have you not noticed that the Republican platform tends to be about things like deregulation, lower taxes, smaller government, reduction of the nanny state, etc? The neo-cons were fairly pro-government and welfare state, but they're gone.

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

Oh, I'm fully aware of the difference between the two. But it wasn't left wing vs right wing. It was left vs harder left. Everything depends on your point of view. Most people who write histories tend to be leftists. From their perspective, everything to the right of them is right wing, and everything to to the left of them is left wing. I am coming from a point of view that believes in freedom in both business and person. You come from a point of view that hates freedom and wants to dominate and control both businesses and persons. From where I'm standing, the differences between the Nazis and the Soviets is a sliver it would be difficult to shine a light through. To me, they're arguing about the difference between Blue and Indigo.

So hey, if it makes me look stupid to leftists, I'm ok with that.

Basically, the government controlling anything is leftism and when the government doesn't control anything that is rightism?

Largely, in America at least, yes. Have you not noticed that the Republican platform tends to be about things like deregulation, lower taxes, smaller government, reduction of the nanny state, etc? The neo-cons were fairly pro-government and welfare state, but they're gone.

uziq wrote:

Larssen wrote:

I don't think that neatly falls into your conceptions of 'left' and 'right'. There's definitely extreme right parallels but socialist principles did influence them as well.

the common denominator is populism, 'mass' politics, not socialism per se. the nazis were socialist in name only. nothing about their economic arrangement was socialist. there's nothing in ricardo about handing over the entire economy to a cabal of industrialists.

uziq wrote:

and, again, government control is not synonymous with the left historically in europe. the left arose as a 'people's alternative' to the forms of state control that had previously been in place, and which were synonymous with the right-wing. much of france's modern history is concerned with the relation between centralising, authoritarian forces like the aristocracy/state/clergy and republicans.

pretty much the only people in europe who peddle 'the nazis were leftists' line are sub-nazi neo-fascists and populists.

Larssen wrote:

Thinking about it it's kinda weird that we've somehow decided to capture all politics in some binary. You're either 0 or 1!

Larssen wrote:

I don't think I've ever used the terms left or right to describe anything in a serious sense or seen it written somewhere. Socialist, liberal, authoritarian, communist, monarchist, nationalist etc. These make sense. Left and right mean nothing.

Last edited by Jay (2020-05-11 05:55:36)