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unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,024|6323|USA

Quietly shuffling him to another school sounds like something a church would do. But I'm partially with you on this. It's not like he molested the kids. Still, he should probably go through some sensitivity training and get updated on what science has to say about race. Apologize to his classroom, give them the opportunity to decide if they want to give him another chance, and then he can return to his job there or elsewhere properly contrite, observed for a time, and keeping in mind that there will be no second chances.

I don't know if always and/or intentionally having like teaching like is the way to go. Kids will grow up and have to deal with people who don't look like them or share their ideals. I know the south thinks that critical thinking is just some liberal claptrap, but there needs to be more of that.
uziq
Member
+492|3003
i'm not going to contradict your reading of that situation, being the school teacher who no doubt is very familiar with similar setups, but i was actually quite impressed with the maturity and composure of the youths. do 'troubled' youths act like that when confronted with bald disrespect? considering their age and the dynamics in the room, i'm very surprised that they seemed to assume the upper position there and just let the guy play himself. someone in their mid-teens saying quite calmly 'i'm not sure i can respect you anymore' doesn't exactly scream to me 'hood rat with poor impulse control'.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,024|6323|USA

Anecdotally, some of the most mature behavior and level-headed reactions to stuff have come from my high school classmates. I think a lot of credit can be given to young people that is often withheld for no better reason than "they're just teenagers."

The right to and responsibility of voting should be given to high schoolers, who certainly have a stake in the state of the country they'll inherit. At any given moment, I'd put my money on someone just out of high school social studies in a debate against a 55yo Fox Enjoyer.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,797|5657|eXtreme to the maX

SuperJail Warden wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Still waiting on mac's comment.
The mismatch between the demographics of teachers vs the students they teach in America is extreme and worsening. An old white guy probably shouldn't be in front of a class of young minority children the same way I wouldn't make a black guy a kindergarten teacher in New Hampshire. It irks me when they put 22 year old white girl teachers in charge of ghetto high schools. It isn't good for anyone involved but the amount of people qualified to do that job is already a small selective group.

...


It isn't good that the primary experience many black and white Americans have with the other is through school. It is fine among the students but it makes me wince knowing there are schools of black kids whose only experience with a white person is with the cops and teachers. Also makes me wince knowing there are schools of white kids where the only successful black person they will ever get to know is the gym coach.
So what's the solution? Fire the white teachers and hire dumb black ones?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,024|6323|USA

"smart white teachers. dumb black teachers." -dilbert, 2022
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+610|3271

uziq wrote:

i'm not going to contradict your reading of that situation, being the school teacher who no doubt is very familiar with similar setups, but i was actually quite impressed with the maturity and composure of the youths. do 'troubled' youths act like that when confronted with bald disrespect? considering their age and the dynamics in the room, i'm very surprised that they seemed to assume the upper position there and just let the guy play himself. someone in their mid-teens saying quite calmly 'i'm not sure i can respect you anymore' doesn't exactly scream to me 'hood rat with poor impulse control'.
Kids have their ups and downs like adults too. Some days my "At Risk" kids are calm and want to just sit there. Other days I need to physically break up their roughhousing and get them to sit down.

The fact that the kid said to the teacher "I am not sure if I respect you anymore" is the sort of the "without filter" that a lot of disruptive and troublesome kids have. Some kids knew to just sit there and let old man say his whatever and collect a good grade later. The other kid decided to challenge the guy and essentially escalated the situation.

I mean it is good that the kid didn't slap the guy or break out into obnoxious yelling but still the whole dynamic of the situation is obvious. Part of life is getting along with disrespectful people, making peace with authority, and learning how to to stay quiet. Getting the guy fired and replaced with a perm sub I think sends the wrong message to the students. But whatever.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+492|3003
so black kids should put up and shut up and be talked down upon by a guy who thinks they are genetically inferior? how does that work.

even in my non-troubled posh school there was a clear need for reciprocal respect between teacher and student.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+610|3271

Dilbert_X wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Still waiting on mac's comment.
The mismatch between the demographics of teachers vs the students they teach in America is extreme and worsening. An old white guy probably shouldn't be in front of a class of young minority children the same way I wouldn't make a black guy a kindergarten teacher in New Hampshire. It irks me when they put 22 year old white girl teachers in charge of ghetto high schools. It isn't good for anyone involved but the amount of people qualified to do that job is already a small selective group.

...


It isn't good that the primary experience many black and white Americans have with the other is through school. It is fine among the students but it makes me wince knowing there are schools of black kids whose only experience with a white person is with the cops and teachers. Also makes me wince knowing there are schools of white kids where the only successful black person they will ever get to know is the gym coach.
So what's the solution? Fire the white teachers and hire dumb black ones?
Train and hire more minority teachers, aides, guidance counselors, etc. No school has an overabundance of teachers and support staff.

We don't have to kick white people out of college to make room. We can expand higher education access. Increasing teacher pay and benefits to lure people away from more lucrative college majors will probably make the whole demographic mismatch worse. "There are no solutions, only tradeoffs."

...

The mismatch between the leaders and workers of American institutions and the Americans they serve is a big area of interest for me and also a huge blindspot in America. Do you remember when the U.S. government had Army and Marines out directing traffic and providing basic services in Iraq because we fired and banned all of the Arabs who did those jobs just fine before the occupation? Remember how the Iraqis felt about that? Same situation taking place in many parts of America and bound to get worse.

Government jobs will be the few "good jobs" left and multigenerational white Americans will still try to setup their friends and families into these jobs. It would be remiss of them not to. More educational barriers will be put up between the jobs and workers while higher education access is curtailed. Meanwhile the population of minorites keeps increasing, and the population of whites keeps decreasing and pretty soon the place looks like Brazil.

That's my prediction.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+492|3003
the poor whites are being replaced. it's not like 40% of the annual intake at harvard–yale aren't legacy admissions, or anything, compared to a tiny sliver of 'positive discrimination' accepts.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+610|3271

uziq wrote:

so black kids should put up and shut up and be talked down upon by a guy who thinks they are genetically inferior? how does that work.

even in my non-troubled posh school there was a clear need for reciprocal respect between teacher and student.
I am not saying that. I am just saying there is a time and place.

It is the same thing I would tell a black kid when dealing with the police. Don't fight them and instead just comply. Record, and report. Don't try to fight the system at the first point of contact.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+492|3003
but none of them were fighting. they were markedly respectful. there was no acting up or making a scene. it was a room of calm and collected children expressing shock and dismay at their adult teacher, who should know better, intellectually and emotionally, and his kooky ideas.

imagine children behaving themselves in the face of an actual racist and you saying 'there's a time and a place'.

there's a time and a place for expressing your kooky racial theories, too, you know ... it's called 'not at fucking work'.

Last edited by uziq (2022-11-15 19:05:13)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,024|6323|USA

mac wrote:

I mean it is good that the kid didn't slap the guy or break out into obnoxious yelling but still the whole dynamic of the situation is obvious. Part of life is getting along with disrespectful people, making peace with authority, and learning how to to stay quiet. Getting the guy fired and replaced with a perm sub I think sends the wrong message to the students. But whatever.
What bothers me about this paragraph is the non-mention of the engagement the teacher also has with "life." Another part of life are consequences (easily predictable consequences) for screwing up in the manner he has.

I don't think Dilbert has the right response, "oh the poor man, all the brown people are going to ruin him." NAACP didn't force him to sit down and have a KKK heart-to-heart.

Putting the burden solely on students to stolidly receive this kind of treatment in a way reminds me of blue lives arguments faulting police victims for not acting calm with jittery, armed, badged, ("trained," lol) thugs screaming at them.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2022-11-15 18:38:47)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+610|3271

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

mac wrote:

I mean it is good that the kid didn't slap the guy or break out into obnoxious yelling but still the whole dynamic of the situation is obvious. Part of life is getting along with disrespectful people, making peace with authority, and learning how to to stay quiet. Getting the guy fired and replaced with a perm sub I think sends the wrong message to the students. But whatever.
What bothers me about this paragraph is the non-mention of the engagement the teacher also has with "life." Another part of life are consequences (easily predictable consequences) for screwing up in the manner he has.
That's a good point. That wasn't the time or place to say what he did. They ended up firing him anyway. So he faced consequences.

I just looked it up and they fired the dancing Indian teacher too.

https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/loca … n/2817486/

Looking up the original...I didn't know there was a part two.

I hope she gets to keep her license and at least could find work math tutoring or something.

Why are math teachers like this?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,024|6323|USA

I would probably be one of the students with their heads down like that one in the foreground. Cannot comprehend what neurons were firing to trigger an algebraic war dance. It's haunting

You're probably right that just letting the teachers go like that might be knee-jerk even if they should have known better. So it would be nice if students were consulted in these cases. Like you say, they're going to be adults eventually, so why not engage them in this process and give them a vote and a voice. It could be educational. And, after all, students and teachers spend a lot of time together.

A unanimous "stay" could get the teacher back on the job with a stern warning and whatever else administration decides needs done.
uziq
Member
+492|3003
that above video is just unhinged. i never saw a teacher behave that way in my whole life. what in the fuck even was the point in that? is she medicated?
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,024|6323|USA

IIRC it was a poorly conceived attempt at passing along a math mnemonic? Make of that what you will.

STEM, folks.

e: I've read that she'd been doing this for awhile (like years), so it's not as if it was like a one day breakdown or something?

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2022-11-15 21:12:33)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,024|6323|USA

The whole thing just gives me anxiety to look at. Over a decade (link) of making an embarrassing spectacle of her classroom and only after a student has a recording of it does the school act? If a student disrupted class like this, the on-campus cop would beat them over the head with a desk or chokeslam them into the floor until they settled down. 'Stop resisting.'

Being a student at a school seems a much more vulnerable position than teacher. Hearsay can get a student in a lot of trouble. Meanwhile, poorly behaved, lying, and spiteful teachers have gotten away with stuff for years.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2022-11-15 21:36:45)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,797|5657|eXtreme to the maX

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

"smart white teachers. dumb black teachers." -dilbert, 2022
If there's a surplus of white teachers and a shortage of black teachers then inevitably if you want an even balance, or of course ideally all black teachers, then the acceptance standards are going to have to be lowered.

The whole idea is stupid, I thought choosing the best person for the job, regardless of race, was the whole argument of the anti-racists.

How far do you go? Shouldn't asian students have an asian role model teaching them? Hispanic students? Eskimo students? Obviously we're not going to worry about the white kids.
Maybe there's a reason there aren't many black role models to hire as teachers?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,024|6323|USA

Ask mac, I don't agree with pursuing like to like. I do agree that maybe putting an inexperienced teacher into a challenging classroom is a little cruel, though.

Expand access to higher education if admission caps are an issue.

I know you're in your 50s and are probably irked by stuff like potatohead's renaming, but 'eskimo' is probably a word better to avoid these days.
uziq
Member
+492|3003
i don't really think that people should have same ethnicity or same religion teachers or whatever. that seems unnecessarily prescriptive to me. the idea should be to transcend and get over those (largely constructed) barriers, and the classroom is a very good place to start it, i.e. before people grow old and bitter and fearful and develop a suite of presentiments and resentments like our good man dilbert here. children are largely unencumbered with this stuff and classrooms should be pot pourris of culture and views.

the problem is racist teachers. i do think here is something very obviously wrong about an adult in a position of responsibility, acting in loco parentis, telling his minors that he thinks they're inferiors, closer to animals than human. that is all sorts of wrong. an education system can do better than to employ a paleolithic maths teacher.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+610|3271
I am not FEOS. I will not make a bunch of quote trees but instead respond to each one.

Dilbert_X wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

"smart white teachers. dumb black teachers." -dilbert, 2022
If there's a surplus of white teachers and a shortage of black teachers then inevitably if you want an even balance, or of course ideally all black teachers, then the acceptance standards are going to have to be lowered.

The whole idea is stupid, I thought choosing the best person for the job, regardless of race, was the whole argument of the anti-racists.

How far do you go? Shouldn't asian students have an asian role model teaching them? Hispanic students? Eskimo students? Obviously we're not going to worry about the white kids.
Maybe there's a reason there aren't many black role models to hire as teachers?
(1) I don't buy the premise that white teachers are smart while black teachers are dumb. There's a big spectrum. One of the bigger reasons white guys in America are going through a tough spot is because there are no longer hard barriers preventing minority labor from competing with white labor. Soft barriers still exist but plenty of white people run into them too.

(2) "Lowing standards" - SpongeBob Meme. The standards have been raised for teachers over and over again. The result of raising the standards is shortages. There is no surplus of white teachers either. STEM and SpEd are especially hard hit. The standards need to be reasonably relaxed and not just to get minorities in classrooms.

(3) I don't believe people should only be taught by people of their own race. I will respond to Newbie about this.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+610|3271

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Ask mac, I don't agree with pursuing like to like. I do agree that maybe putting an inexperienced teacher into a challenging classroom is a little cruel, though.

Expand access to higher education if admission caps are an issue.

I know you're in your 50s and are probably irked by stuff like potatohead's renaming, but 'eskimo' is probably a word better to avoid these days.
I don't think people should only be taught by their own race. That's exactly what bothers me.

SuperJail Warden wrote:

It isn't good that the primary experience many black and white Americans have with the other is through school. It is fine among the students but it makes me wince knowing there are schools of black kids whose only experience with a white person is with the cops and teachers. Also makes me wince knowing there are schools of white kids where the only successful black person they will ever get to know is the gym coach.
Ideally both schools would have a reasonably
diverse staff.

No one needs to lose their jobs or get denied access. We can increase the number of seats and classes and teachers. Anyone framing that idea as "white people losing out" has an agenda or messed up frame of mind.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+610|3271

uziq wrote:

i don't really think that people should have same ethnicity or same religion teachers or whatever. that seems unnecessarily prescriptive to me. the idea should be to transcend and get over those (largely constructed) barriers, and the classroom is a very good place to start it, i.e. before people grow old and bitter and fearful and develop a suite of presentiments and resentments like our good man dilbert here. children are largely unencumbered with this stuff and classrooms should be pot pourris of culture and views.

the problem is racist teachers. i do think here is something very obviously wrong about an adult in a position of responsibility, acting in loco parentis, telling his minors that he thinks they're inferiors, closer to animals than human. that is all sorts of wrong. an education system can do better than to employ a paleolithic maths teacher.
"The importance of a diverse teaching force" article from 2017.
https://www.brookings.edu/research/the- … ing-force/

the importance of same-race teachers
Why should we care whether the teaching force reflects the demographics of the student body? A growing body of literature suggests that outcomes such as test scores, attendance, and suspension rates are affected by the demographic match between teachers and students.3

]Minority students often perform better on standardized tests, have improved attendance, and are suspended less frequently (which may suggest either different degrees of behavior or different treatment, or both) when they have at least one same-race teacher.
I am literally a paying supporter of the the NAACP and I still need to work to overcome my bias. I have no doubt that the guy above left a paper trail of bad grades and unnecessary discipline reports that could be scrutinized. And the guy is in fact a walking legal liability. I don't think he belonged in a classroom anymore but I am really hesitant to take people's licenses away from them for stuff like this. Don't judge lest you be judged or something like that.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,024|6323|USA

The "judge not" stuff may be one of the most befuddlingly abused biblical quips ever. It makes zero sense that the intent was to bar judgment from society. Isn't it supposed to mean only judge others by the same standard you would wish to be judged? And with humility? Book of Matthew wasn't big on hypocrites, I guess.

Out of necessity, a teacher like that should be judged.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+610|3271

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Isn't it supposed to mean only judge others by the same standard you would wish to be judged?
I don't want the standard to be getting your license yanked.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg

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