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uziq
Member
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Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

at least for a certain high-brow type,
But more so for the low-brow type who idolises gangsters

you are, really, two steps away from the 'watching/playing/reading x/y/z makes people violent' argument,
It gives the apes encouragement that their impulses are normal behaviour and should be acted on.
yes, people become interested in lives of crime, assassinations and pimping because they watched a tv show.

apart from a few dumb frat boys thinking they are tough guys after their third pabst, i really don't think the sopranos was a recruitment boon for organized crime.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,915|5819|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

But if they'd won it would have been a better future for their country.

Same for the mafia, if everyone has to pay them a tribute on fear of death they can have a really nice life.
Certainly divided Germany wasn't a good time for the Germans, but I'm not sure I would call nearly a hundred years living under the boot of Nazi rule the "better future." What new and interesting horrors and criterias would have been imposed upon the German people?

Neither Scarface nor Godfather seemed like attempts to "normalize" organized crime.
uziq
Member
+405|2500

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

the fact is its practically every TV show now and it really is lazy writing and easy ratings.
but the sopranos was arguably the first to bring it to tv? in a clever and nuanced way? and it was tremendously well-written, in a league of its own, especially at the time?
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/10/29/1414568178022/ce595af2-3bad-4b17-8f15-0cedc04ed3cd-1020x612.jpeg?width=700&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=862945e8f31bcb6005b3ebe25a466ea9

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/scarface_1983_41_copy_-_h_2018.jpg?w=1024

Would a show normalising white supremacism and neo-nazism be OK if it were tremendously well-written and clever and nuanced?

"The poor fellow, he's so conflicted about tossing cans of Zyklon B into death chambers, and what a script and what acting!
We really should revisit WW2 from the perspective of the average SS guy who's just trying to get ahead and build a better country for his children and going through existential angst while he does it, sniff"
well done at linking two MOVIES when i said that the sopranos was the first to bring high-quality writing to the TELEVISION SERIES format.

i wouldn't exactly say that scar face or the godfather movies were nuanced portrayals of gangsters, either. it's not a psychological drama like the sopranos is. they are mob movies, part of an entertainment genre.

ironically, yet again, the scriptwriting of the sopranos pre-empts your critique. remember when you said it had 'lazy writing'? the characters in the sopranos are forever joking and making fun of the cartoonish portrayals of mob-life in those movies. martin scorsese even has a cameo in the series.

it's almost as if ... you are out of your depth on this topic and the writer of the sopranos has thought about these things more deeply than you. wowsers!





Last edited by uziq (2021-07-01 21:46:21)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,745|5153|eXtreme to the maX
So a show about vicious mobsters ironically references shows about vicious mobsters

Wow what genius, I mean thats hilarious.

Next a show about the Khmer Rouge which neatly throws the Japanese death camps into sharp relief, lets hope the writing is as witty as the set design.
#FreeBritney
uziq
Member
+405|2500
i'm afraid i'm going to have to defer to a time-worn, classical argument: 'so you haven't watched it'.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,745|5153|eXtreme to the maX
How many shows have you critiqued which you haven't watched?

Its practically your defining meme.

Do I care to watch a show about new york criminals?

About as much as the average new yorker cares to watch eastenders I guess.
#FreeBritney
Larssen
Member
+70|935

uziq wrote:

lol 'the sympathetic villain' lazy writing.

you do realize the anti-hero as an archetype goes back to romantic writing in the early 1800s?

it's not a tv trope for nasty mafia men.

the sopranos is pretty cartoonish and over the top, especially the first season. but it settles into something ambiguous and nuanced, dealing with real human beings with better angels and personal demons. something a lot more sophisticated than the manichean, good vs evil, comic book nonsense you are interested in.

imagine finding some of the best tv writing of all time 'lazy' but being engrossed by wonder woman.
The archetype goes back to antiquity my guy!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,915|5819|USA

This is getting muddled. Are we talking about anti-heroes or anti-villains? Where the terms originated, where they gained prominence, or the earliest examples identified?

I think sympathetic villains are a valuable literary tool. In Ben Bova's Tips for Writers:

5. No Villains.

Notice that I used the term “antagonist,” above. Not “villain.” “Not “bad guy.” Not “black hat.”

In the real world there are no villains. No one actually sets out to do evil. Yes, there are madmen and murderers and rapists and crooked politicians and greedy land developers and all sorts of villainous behaviors. But each of those people believes that he is doing what is necessary, and maybe even good. Every tyrant in history was convinced that he had to do the things he did for his own good and for the good of the people around him.

Fiction mirrors life. Or, more accurately, fiction serves as a lens to focus what we know of life and bring its realities into sharper, clearer understanding for us.

There are no villains cackling and rubbing their hands in glee as they contemplate their evil deeds. There are only people with problems, struggling to solve them. Just as your protagonist is struggling to solve her problems, your antagonist is struggling to solve his. It’s all a matter of viewpoint.

You could write Hamlet, for example, from the viewpoint of Claudius, the king who murdered Hamlet’s father (his own brother) and married his widow. You might even make a truly powerful story about a man who loved his brother’s wife too much, and dared to what he did to win her.

But he wouldn’t be a villain.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090821135 … tips2.html

Imagine how utterly boring stories would be if all of the villains were straight up silent movie fare.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,745|5153|eXtreme to the maX
There are villains, people who are selfish, greedy and nasty, sociopathy and psychopathy are real things.
#FreeBritney
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,915|5819|USA

I think you're missing the point.

Anyway, having more nuance has even helped out comic books to an extent, although a lot of them are still written poorly. I was struggling to get through off-the-shelf stuff as far back as the late 90s before I gave up in I think 2000. Like $3 for a gaudy soap on paper. I didn't mind comics with a lot of text and exposition, but it also had to be interesting to read. And also all that text should probably be divided among more panels. It is a picture book, after all.

A lot of commentary I've seen on purple villain in the Avengers praised him not for being cool or strong, but for being complicated at least on a basic level. I guess he had mustache-twirling scenes, but he still thought what he was doing was what was best for the universe?
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+489|2767

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

I think you're missing the point.

Anyway, having more nuance has even helped out comic books to an extent, although a lot of them are still written poorly. I was struggling to get through off-the-shelf stuff as far back as the late 90s before I gave up in I think 2000. Like $3 for a gaudy soap on paper. I didn't mind comics with a lot of text and exposition, but it also had to be interesting to read. And also all that text should probably be divided among more panels. It is a picture book, after all.

A lot of commentary I've seen on purple villain in the Avengers praised him not for being cool or strong, but for being complicated at least on a basic level. I guess he had mustache-twirling scenes, but he still thought what he was doing was what was best for the universe?
The Thanos changes the screenwriters made when bringing Infinity War out of the comics and onto the big screen were a disaster. I mean for society. There are many people who agreed with Thanos about killing half of the people to stop resources from running out. Infinity War the movie encouraged environmental fascist in the real world.

The comic Thanos, who killed half the universe in order to impress the physical incarnation of death as a woman, wouldn't encourage environmental fascist.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,915|5819|USA

I guess even the comic book Thanos had a reason for doing what he did.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+489|2767
Getting laid by a skeleton. Cannot relate.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,920|5679|949

Was the time travel plot device part of the comics? That was so incredibly bad.
Larssen
Member
+70|935
I liked his one liners
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,920|5679|949

I liked when the movie started with Thanos picking leeks in his garden. Lol
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,915|5819|USA

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Getting laid by a skeleton. Cannot relate.
I mean, going back to Ben Bova's point, I guess Thanos is trying to impress death for his own benefit. Just because you don't have a thing for bones doesn't mean he can't, lol.
uziq
Member
+405|2500

Dilbert_X wrote:

How many shows have you critiqued which you haven't watched?

Its practically your defining meme.

Do I care to watch a show about new york criminals?

About as much as the average new yorker cares to watch eastenders I guess.
it’s famously set in new jersey.

derp derp.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
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Apparently you haven't seen it either

Primarily set in New Jersey and New York City
Not that it matters, its a copy-paste shrink-drama wog-opera.
#FreeBritney
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+489|2767
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,915|5819|USA

It's weird that dilbert is so queasy about Sopranos and Godfather or whatever … but then gladly consume material about actual wars, or comic book stuff where billions get snuffed out?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
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Yes, history of world wars and space-fantasy are exactly the same as kitchen-sink dramas which glorify criminality and encourage cretins to murder people.
#FreeBritney
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
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Really nuanced, the best writing of all time.
#FreeBritney
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,915|5819|USA

Dilbert_X wrote:

Yes, history of world wars and space-fantasy are exactly the same as kitchen-sink dramas which glorify criminality and encourage cretins to murder people.
So, "depictions of human suffering based on real events are fine as long as it's in vast enough numbers and with the blessings of governments. Even better if I'm watching fantasy genocide. Meanwhile let me express my moral outrage over a handful of deaths in a mob series. Let me toss in a slur or two while I'm at it."

Very sad and confusing take, dilbo.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,745|5153|eXtreme to the maX
Depictions of actual events - yes

Making murder and torture seem part of normal reasonable human behaviour - no
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