Announcement

Join us on Discord: https://discord.gg/nf43FxS
sir derpington
Post limited. Contact Admin to Be Promoted.
+2|2293
Boeing needs it to be on a level playing field with the only other competitor in the market...at least that is what we are told
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+500|2797

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:


What's that got to do with Reagan? He increased spending and raised taxes. His deficit spending set the tone for the past 30 years. Fighting communism and spending on national defense did nothing but make us poorer.
Reagan's big tent approach of bringing in and encouraging the religious right is the reason the GOP is so screwed up. Giving those people a platform and telling them their Christian persecutionl/all or nothing behavior was okay fucked things up.

You missed the part about strong national institutions. The GOP of the 60's wouldn't be celebrating shutting down our import-export bank in order to spite the president.
They're celebrating the shutdown because it was crony capitalism at it's worst. Do you believe Boeing requires corporate welfare to survive? If it does, should it? The answer is no to both. Fanny and Freddie should be next. They allow banks to originate stupid loans with zero repercussions.
The bank was self-funding. There was no reason to kill that instrument of foreign policy since the U.S. is now the sole great power without an import export bank.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,752|5183|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

Do you believe Boeing requires corporate welfare to survive? If it does, should it?
As a military contractor Boeing gets generous corporate welfare.
#FreeBritney
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4435|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:


Reagan's big tent approach of bringing in and encouraging the religious right is the reason the GOP is so screwed up. Giving those people a platform and telling them their Christian persecutionl/all or nothing behavior was okay fucked things up.

You missed the part about strong national institutions. The GOP of the 60's wouldn't be celebrating shutting down our import-export bank in order to spite the president.
They're celebrating the shutdown because it was crony capitalism at it's worst. Do you believe Boeing requires corporate welfare to survive? If it does, should it? The answer is no to both. Fanny and Freddie should be next. They allow banks to originate stupid loans with zero repercussions.
The bank was self-funding. There was no reason to kill that instrument of foreign policy since the U.S. is now the sole great power without an import export bank.
Good. Mercantilism is so 1850.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+500|2797
Free trade and immigration hurt western countries more than it helps. The more the west has pushed free trade and immigration, the worse it has gotten.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4435|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Free trade and immigration hurt western countries more than it helps. The more the west has pushed free trade and immigration, the worse it has gotten.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+500|2797
As useful of a response I have come to expect.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
coke
Aye up duck!
+440|5786|England. Stoke

SuperJail Warden wrote:

As useful of a response I have come to expect.
Hey now, he put three yes THREE 's that a pretty structured and well thought out rebuttal.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,925|5709|949

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Free trade and immigration hurt western countries more than it helps. The more the west has pushed free trade and immigration, the worse it has gotten.
"Free trade" as it's practiced lowers our standard of living and negatively impacts the value of labor in the U.S.  This negatively impacts the U.S. economy as a whole, because as the money flows from the working/middle class to the super wealthy it doesn't get spent.  Our economy works better when people have money to spend.

Immigration as an abstract does the same, but there's a value add to society in the form of creating more taxpayers and offering a better opportunity for success that one could argue offsets any negative impacts on economy.

Jay, libertarianism and free trade exist in the same realm as communism - it doesn't take into account human interaction.  Why do people use the excuse "communism sounds good on paper, but in practice doesn't work" but refuse to apply the same argument?

What are your feelings on control of information?  Shouldn't information be free and accessible too? Wouldn't free flow of information allow us to innovate and make progress at a higher rate than we currently do, or do different rules apply to the information market?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4435|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Free trade and immigration hurt western countries more than it helps. The more the west has pushed free trade and immigration, the worse it has gotten.
"Free trade" as it's practiced lowers our standard of living and negatively impacts the value of labor in the U.S.  This negatively impacts the U.S. economy as a whole, because as the money flows from the working/middle class to the super wealthy it doesn't get spent.  Our economy works better when people have money to spend.

Immigration as an abstract does the same, but there's a value add to society in the form of creating more taxpayers and offering a better opportunity for success that one could argue offsets any negative impacts on economy.

Jay, libertarianism and free trade exist in the same realm as communism - it doesn't take into account human interaction.  Why do people use the excuse "communism sounds good on paper, but in practice doesn't work" but refuse to apply the same argument?

What are your feelings on control of information?  Shouldn't information be free and accessible too? Wouldn't free flow of information allow us to innovate and make progress at a higher rate than we currently do, or do different rules apply to the information market?
Free trade increases the standard of living because prices fall. When you have a protectionist economy you throw up tariffs to protect favored industries. So let's say we go back a hundred years and throw up a tariff on automobiles to save Detroit. We set the base cost of a vehicle at $30,000 new and tack on X amount to the cost of a Honda Civic. Chevy then prices their Cobalt at $25,000 to undercut the Honda and gain market share. Ford does the same with their Focus. So now you have two car options at a cost well above the current sticker price. Who wins? Both the car manufacturer and their union labor. Who loses? Honda, Toyota and You. You are now paying higher prices for less desirable vehicles. Over time, the impetus to innovate disappears and quality declines because you're stuck buying from them anyway, so who cares? Does this sound familiar? Because it's already what destroyed GM and Ford. Foreign companies built manufacturing plants here to get around our tariffs and they've destroyed the original players. The only people still advocating for protectionism are unions.

As for information, sure, but I do believe that patents are valid. At least short term patents of 7 years or so. Patent and copyright extensions beyond that are just protectionism of a different kind.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,925|5709|949

I paid no attention whatsoever to your example. 

Why are prices supposed to fall? Because goods can be manufactured cheaper.  Why can they be manufactured cheaper?  Because we are outsourcing labor to another area outside the US.  This in theory helps raise the standard of living in the other country, so it can be seen as a good thing, right?  The reality is the standard of living is not raised in direct relation to the loss of standard of living because there is skimming (profit) going to both sides.  Plus the cost of goods is rarely actually reduced - the outsourcing of labor only leads to increased profits, not falling prices (in most cases).  Oh and by the way, you've just displaced labor - an asset to the economy and something that produces buying power - stimulating the market.

In theory, it works because there's an offset of labor lost to price reduction.  In practice it doesn't work, because the prices are rarely reduced (due to the main impetus in outsourcing labor is not to reduce prices, but to increase profits), the quality of the product rarely maintains (everyone is willing to do it cheaper, and manufacturing sacrifices product lifespan and materials quality in that race to the bottom), the rise in the standard of living is not in direct correlation to the reduction in standard of living (it's not a net zero loss/addition in standard of living due to profits increasing instead of distributing the loss/gains equally), and on top of that we lose labor - a tangible asset when looking at the value of an economy.

It's cool to model out what a "free market" means and pretend everything is working according to the decayed invisible hand's wishes, but it's simply not the case.  Prices don't drop, we don't create new industry fast enough to replace the labor loss and standards of living don't comparatively balance.

and the whole idea of innovation in your example is irrelevant and probably a red herring.

Aren't patents another form of protectionism?  Isn't anything curtailing the sharing of information an affront on the information exchange market?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4435|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

I paid no attention whatsoever to your example. 

Why are prices supposed to fall? Because goods can be manufactured cheaper.  Why can they be manufactured cheaper?  Because we are outsourcing labor to another area outside the US.  This in theory helps raise the standard of living in the other country, so it can be seen as a good thing, right?  The reality is the standard of living is not raised in direct relation to the loss of standard of living because there is skimming (profit) going to both sides.  Plus the cost of goods is rarely actually reduced - the outsourcing of labor only leads to increased profits, not falling prices (in most cases).  Oh and by the way, you've just displaced labor - an asset to the economy and something that produces buying power - stimulating the market.

In theory, it works because there's an offset of labor lost to price reduction.  In practice it doesn't work, because the prices are rarely reduced (due to the main impetus in outsourcing labor is not to reduce prices, but to increase profits), the quality of the product rarely maintains (everyone is willing to do it cheaper, and manufacturing sacrifices product lifespan and materials quality in that race to the bottom), the rise in the standard of living is not in direct correlation to the reduction in standard of living (it's not a net zero loss/addition in standard of living due to profits increasing instead of distributing the loss/gains equally), and on top of that we lose labor - a tangible asset when looking at the value of an economy.

It's cool to model out what a "free market" means and pretend everything is working according to the decayed invisible hand's wishes, but it's simply not the case.  Prices don't drop, we don't create new industry fast enough to replace the labor loss and standards of living don't comparatively balance.

and the whole idea of innovation in your example is irrelevant and probably a red herring.

Aren't patents another form of protectionism?  Isn't anything curtailing the sharing of information an affront on the information exchange market?
Prices don't go down? How did Walmart displace so many mom and pop shops? It certainly wasn't due to service. Or look at the way HTC, Samsung, and LG price their bottom end products to attract customers. If we threw up a tariff to protect Apple do you think more or less people would have access to smart phones?

Increasing competition always results in prices decreasing unless a cartel is formed. Cartels generally only form under government sanction. Without government protection, the cartel will be undermined by the likes of Uber or AirBNB or whatever comes next.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+500|2797
Cars are way too complicated to use as a mental exercise regarding tariffs. Should just stick with widgets.

I did a paper on NAFTA and U.S. auto production for my International political economy class. Most American cars even from GM and the like are actually made in Mexico because labor is cheaper. They then just ship them north. Most of the U.S. plants for the american brands are only still open because the unions force the cars to be made here. Otherwise, GM would have an entirely Mexican workforce.

The Asian brands that opened up shops here still used 99% Japanese and Korean parts because they only need to assemble the cars for them to be considered products of the U.S. Further, after the creation of NAFTA, those Asian brands too shifted to Mexico since it is still within the free trade zone for the U.S.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,925|5709|949

Jay wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

I paid no attention whatsoever to your example. 

Why are prices supposed to fall? Because goods can be manufactured cheaper.  Why can they be manufactured cheaper?  Because we are outsourcing labor to another area outside the US.  This in theory helps raise the standard of living in the other country, so it can be seen as a good thing, right?  The reality is the standard of living is not raised in direct relation to the loss of standard of living because there is skimming (profit) going to both sides.  Plus the cost of goods is rarely actually reduced - the outsourcing of labor only leads to increased profits, not falling prices (in most cases).  Oh and by the way, you've just displaced labor - an asset to the economy and something that produces buying power - stimulating the market.

In theory, it works because there's an offset of labor lost to price reduction.  In practice it doesn't work, because the prices are rarely reduced (due to the main impetus in outsourcing labor is not to reduce prices, but to increase profits), the quality of the product rarely maintains (everyone is willing to do it cheaper, and manufacturing sacrifices product lifespan and materials quality in that race to the bottom), the rise in the standard of living is not in direct correlation to the reduction in standard of living (it's not a net zero loss/addition in standard of living due to profits increasing instead of distributing the loss/gains equally), and on top of that we lose labor - a tangible asset when looking at the value of an economy.

It's cool to model out what a "free market" means and pretend everything is working according to the decayed invisible hand's wishes, but it's simply not the case.  Prices don't drop, we don't create new industry fast enough to replace the labor loss and standards of living don't comparatively balance.

and the whole idea of innovation in your example is irrelevant and probably a red herring.

Aren't patents another form of protectionism?  Isn't anything curtailing the sharing of information an affront on the information exchange market?
Prices don't go down? How did Walmart displace so many mom and pop shops? It certainly wasn't due to service. Or look at the way HTC, Samsung, and LG price their bottom end products to attract customers. If we threw up a tariff to protect Apple do you think more or less people would have access to smart phones?

Increasing competition always results in prices decreasing unless a cartel is formed. Cartels generally only form under government sanction. Without government protection, the cartel will be undermined by the likes of Uber or AirBNB or whatever comes next.
Prices went down because margins were slashed to penetrate the market.  It's called price penetration - economics 101 type stuff.  It had literally NOTHING to do with outsourcing labor - in fact, most handset suppliers (and consumer electronics companies in general) use the same manufacturers - the only real thing that changes is what's shoved under the hood and how much profit they want to capture.

So your excuse to why prices virtually never drop is because the government creates cartels? All the government's fault, no blame on the company or industry.  Haha what a joke dude.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4435|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Cars are way too complicated to use as a mental exercise regarding tariffs. Should just stick with widgets.

I did a paper on NAFTA and U.S. auto production for my International political economy class. Most American cars even from GM and the like are actually made in Mexico because labor is cheaper. They then just ship them north. Most of the U.S. plants for the american brands are only still open because the unions force the cars to be made here. Otherwise, GM would have an entirely Mexican workforce.

The Asian brands that opened up shops here still used 99% Japanese and Korean parts because they only need to assemble the cars for them to be considered products of the U.S. Further, after the creation of NAFTA, those Asian brands too shifted to Mexico since it is still within the free trade zone for the U.S.
So what? The world isn't static. Does it suck to watch your skills become obsolete because your industry died or changed? Absolutely. It happens in every industry though. It's why doctors are required to maintain a certain number of hours of training and performing the job in order to keep their license. Procedures and information become obsolete over time.

What it comes down to is people are really fucking intellectually lazy and don't want to learn new things. They become comfortable and reactionary because they fear change. If their industry dies they'd rather sit on their ass and beg politicians to bring them work in their former factory town. It's honestly one of the most loathsome parts of every presidential election cycle, having to sit through their stories.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4435|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Jay wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

I paid no attention whatsoever to your example. 

Why are prices supposed to fall? Because goods can be manufactured cheaper.  Why can they be manufactured cheaper?  Because we are outsourcing labor to another area outside the US.  This in theory helps raise the standard of living in the other country, so it can be seen as a good thing, right?  The reality is the standard of living is not raised in direct relation to the loss of standard of living because there is skimming (profit) going to both sides.  Plus the cost of goods is rarely actually reduced - the outsourcing of labor only leads to increased profits, not falling prices (in most cases).  Oh and by the way, you've just displaced labor - an asset to the economy and something that produces buying power - stimulating the market.

In theory, it works because there's an offset of labor lost to price reduction.  In practice it doesn't work, because the prices are rarely reduced (due to the main impetus in outsourcing labor is not to reduce prices, but to increase profits), the quality of the product rarely maintains (everyone is willing to do it cheaper, and manufacturing sacrifices product lifespan and materials quality in that race to the bottom), the rise in the standard of living is not in direct correlation to the reduction in standard of living (it's not a net zero loss/addition in standard of living due to profits increasing instead of distributing the loss/gains equally), and on top of that we lose labor - a tangible asset when looking at the value of an economy.

It's cool to model out what a "free market" means and pretend everything is working according to the decayed invisible hand's wishes, but it's simply not the case.  Prices don't drop, we don't create new industry fast enough to replace the labor loss and standards of living don't comparatively balance.

and the whole idea of innovation in your example is irrelevant and probably a red herring.

Aren't patents another form of protectionism?  Isn't anything curtailing the sharing of information an affront on the information exchange market?
Prices don't go down? How did Walmart displace so many mom and pop shops? It certainly wasn't due to service. Or look at the way HTC, Samsung, and LG price their bottom end products to attract customers. If we threw up a tariff to protect Apple do you think more or less people would have access to smart phones?

Increasing competition always results in prices decreasing unless a cartel is formed. Cartels generally only form under government sanction. Without government protection, the cartel will be undermined by the likes of Uber or AirBNB or whatever comes next.
Prices went down because margins were slashed to penetrate the market.  It's called price penetration - economics 101 type stuff.  It had literally NOTHING to do with outsourcing labor - in fact, most handset suppliers (and consumer electronics companies in general) use the same manufacturers - the only real thing that changes is what's shoved under the hood and how much profit they want to capture.

So your excuse to why prices virtually never drop is because the government creates cartels? All the government's fault, no blame on the company or industry.  Haha what a joke dude.
If you excise housing prices from the CPI you'll see deflation across many industries due to falling prices. How much did the first microwave cost? $5,000 ($50,000 in todays money) or so. I can buy one at my local drug store for about $30 today.

Last edited by Jay (2015-07-14 15:21:20)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,925|5709|949

Why do prices fall?  According to you it is because of the "free market".  What exactly in a free market economy forces price reduction?  Use your example of microwaves if you want.
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|5851|Noizyland

And show your work.
[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4435|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Why do prices fall?  According to you it is because of the "free market".  What exactly in a free market economy forces price reduction?  Use your example of microwaves if you want.
Patent expires, competition increases, competition drives innovation and efficiency, consumer prices decline.

The reason I'm ok with short patents is that the inventor deserves reward for the idea. Guaranteed reward spurs inventiveness. No, I don't think patent trolls should be able to do what they do. It's disgusting.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4435|London, England
I seriously can't believe that I have to argue that prices tend to fall over time in established industries. This is one of the dumbest arguments I've ever had on this forum.

Supply / Demand.
Supply up, demand down, cost down.
Supply down, demand down, cost flat or decreasing.
Supply up, demand up, cost flat or increasing.
Supply down, demand up, cost up.

Literally macro 101.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
pirana6
Go Cougs!
+645|5368|Washington St.
micro doofus
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4435|London, England

pirana6 wrote:

micro doofus
I learned it in macro
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,752|5183|eXtreme to the maX
In my experience, and I do have actual experience of working in industry, making things, having things made abroad and imported, prices don't fall, the benefit is taken up with additional profits - often declared abroad and untaxed, at the same time as a subset of local people see themselves getting fired. The effect is not instant, it takes years to roll through to the local economy.

'Libertarianism' is as stupid and unworkable as 'communism', neither are what they purport to be and I can't be bothered arguing with either.

That and Jay is possibly the most hypocritical and intellectually dishonest person I have ever encountered, spouting Libertarianism having spent his formative years doing workfare for the government, had his education paid for by a govt he despises using taxes he objects to, and sitting in a highly regulated and well-protected industry which faces no threat from foreign competition in probably the highest taxed, most highly governed and least Libertarian part of the tax-and-spend experiment in mass-delusion which is America.
#FreeBritney
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+500|2797

Dilbert_X wrote:

In my experience, and I do have actual experience of working in industry, making things, having things made abroad and imported, prices don't fall, the benefit is taken up with additional profits - often declared abroad and untaxed, at the same time as a subset of local people see themselves getting fired. The effect is not instant, it takes years to roll through to the local economy.

'Libertarianism' is as stupid and unworkable as 'communism', neither are what they purport to be and I can't be bothered arguing with either.

That and Jay is possibly the most hypocritical and intellectually dishonest person I have ever encountered, spouting Libertarianism having spent his formative years doing workfare for the government, had his education paid for by a govt he despises using taxes he objects to, and sitting in a highly regulated and well-protected industry which faces no threat from foreign competition in probably the highest taxed, most highly governed and least Libertarian part of the tax-and-spend experiment in mass-delusion which is America.
You are being unfair to communism. At least they meant well and wanted to improve things. Libertarianism is just a philosophy of selfishness
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4435|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

In my experience, and I do have actual experience of working in industry, making things, having things made abroad and imported, prices don't fall, the benefit is taken up with additional profits - often declared abroad and untaxed, at the same time as a subset of local people see themselves getting fired. The effect is not instant, it takes years to roll through to the local economy.

'Libertarianism' is as stupid and unworkable as 'communism', neither are what they purport to be and I can't be bothered arguing with either.

That and Jay is possibly the most hypocritical and intellectually dishonest person I have ever encountered, spouting Libertarianism having spent his formative years doing workfare for the government, had his education paid for by a govt he despises using taxes he objects to, and sitting in a highly regulated and well-protected industry which faces no threat from foreign competition in probably the highest taxed, most highly governed and least Libertarian part of the tax-and-spend experiment in mass-delusion which is America.
I've never cared less about someone's opinion of me. Seriously. You have no redeeming qualities.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2021 Jeff Minard