Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6116|eXtreme to the maX
Erm, how would any President 'unite the country' when its so bitterly factional?
Apart from by scaring the citizens with some fantasy enemy or starting a war.

Is there anything Obama could have done which the Republicans wouldn't have blindly opposed?
Haven't they spent the last four years ripping up and reversing everything he did out of pure spite?

"Did Obama produce a unicorn? Hur dur worst President ever"

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2020-06-18 06:36:17)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3462

Larssen wrote:

Depoliticising the military seems rather impossible considering it is inherently a political tool
the american military is meant to be of the people and for the people, not for the executive.

it's not 'rather impossible' to keep a military separate from the white house.
uziq
Member
+492|3462

Jay wrote:

Did Obama make any effort to unite the country? I seem to remember his administration coming in guns blazing with a supermajority trying to remake America in their image and telling everyone that speed was more important than consensus building.
obama was far more gracious, humble and willing to listen than trump.

team trump's rhetoric and strategy has been intentionally inflammatory and divisive. at least fucking own it, jay. it's not an accident how heated and polarized american politics now are.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6782|PNW

It doesn't actually come as a surprise to me that someone, willing to believe "Tyler Durden" but not an epidemiologist, will not listen to (or will choose to ignore) what the former Secretary of Defense has to say about the president, and working in the Trump White House. Instead deflects to Obama. Stunning.

Trump said journalists deserve to be executed during a meeting with former Defense Secretary Jim Mattis, according to a former aide (supporting the claim in Bolton's book)
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-s … ing-2020-6

"Can confirm," Snodgrass wrote on Twitter, quoting the allegation from Trump's former national security advisor that the president said reporters "should be executed. They are scumbags."

"This sentiment," Snodgrass claimed, "[was] expressed again during Trump's meeting with Mattis in the Pentagon."
At the time, Trump was angry about his administration being undercut by claims from anonymous White House officials, believing reporters should be jailed to compel them to reveal their sources' identities.
Unification embiggened.
Larssen
Member
+99|1898
I mean, ideally yes, the military is there for the people, it is separate and impartial and only used to serve its basic function, i.e. to ensure the (inter)national security of the nation state and perhaps advance its interest through military means, which can nonetheless be topics of political contention.

But throughout time militaries everywhere have very often been used to prop up leadership in both dictatorships and democracies, to give an air of legitimacy, and to be part of leaders' photo opportunities and outward facing identity. Due to its role in the advent of nationalism it is almost everywhere an institution that's considered core to national identity, and internally it overflows with symbolisms to prove that point. Externally many people esp. in more militarised societies identify strongly with their militaries, also politically, moreso political conservatives in an age of resurgent nationalism.

It being the case that the United States is one of the most militarised nations on the planet I find it funny how Jay claims the military has always been in the background doing its job and that only now parties are trying to claim it. Defence, militarism and warfare have been incredibly important to American politics and election campaigning since at least the 1950s. The 'military vote' is lobbied for relentlessly and especially on the republican end of the spectrum politicians have to exhibit this 'I, strong american leader, will smash our enemies' machismo to appeal to that base and the public at large. A veteran status and war record is a great way to gain public veneration and attention, and there's been generations of politicians who thank their careers to it. The latest example being this Dan Crenshaw individual - I mean he even looks like a goddamn command & conquer caricature.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-06-18 07:05:10)

uziq
Member
+492|3462
yep, points taken especially re: america's role of the military in everyday life.
uziq
Member
+492|3462

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

It doesn't actually come as a surprise to me that someone, willing to believe "Tyler Durden" but not an epidemiologist, will
jay saying he trusts his personal physician's guidance on covid more than epidemiologists and virologists is still one of the funniest things to come up on this forum in recent time. like a physician can ever barely keep up with the progresses being made in general medicine itself, let alone cutting-edge pandemic outbreaks.

he simply has has no idea how much work and research is going into covid, and how much serious expertise is involved.

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-18 07:21:53)

Larssen
Member
+99|1898
But it's true for other countries as well, for the UK there's even a wikipedia page of politicians with a veteran record. Almost all of them conservatives.

In France the old racist le pen sr. prided himself on his french foreign legion service.

The only countries with 'depoliticised' militaries are ones which have enjoyed a long peace or which have a troubled history on that topic like Germany, that seem unable to reconcile its inherent nationalistic character with its newfound identity on the world stage.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-06-18 07:29:49)

uziq
Member
+492|3462
i don't necessarily see such an overlap. retired veterans who did service in their 20s or 30s going into politics is not the same as the military ruling the country. that would be like saying that a prevalence of lawyers in electoral politics means that the legislative has an overweening influence. there can be a difference so long as rules and laws are enforced about conflicts of interest, second jobs, etc.

a great model germany has. a country that won't even collect demographic data on race and ethnicity because they're afraid of using the word 'rasse' on government documents. now they have no idea how covid is adversely affecting different ethnic groups and can't allocate resources appropriately. lol.

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-18 07:31:41)

Larssen
Member
+99|1898
Well in the UK it may not be as prominent as it is in say the US, perhaps due to also longer standing and stronger traditions on the separation of power and distinction between the political and military class, but it does strike me that almost the entire list of veterans who went into politics is made up of conservative politicians. If every solicitor were labour you'd start scratching your head too.

I know, and tell you what: I do not agree that we should start gathering data on ethnicity because of this. For all its supposed "good", you will officially, institutionally, divide society along ethnic and racial lines and this will also be abused by the far right end of the spectrum to inflame identity politics. Whereas far left/liberal w/e activists want to know this so they can argue their pet talking points on racial discrimination, the far right will see these correlations and conclusively blame people of colour or other ethnic groups for the troubles in society. It's an open invitation to real racism. In an age driven ever more by data and algorithms, government systems will also start gathering this ethnic/racial data to form correlations between certain ethnic groups and behaviours or other data points. Usually not for benevolent purposes.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5368|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Erm, how would any President 'unite the country' when its so bitterly factional?
Apart from by scaring the citizens with some fantasy enemy or starting a war.

Is there anything Obama could have done which the Republicans wouldn't have blindly opposed?
Haven't they spent the last four years ripping up and reversing everything he did out of pure spite?

"Did Obama produce a unicorn? Hur dur worst President ever"
From day 1 he got flak, absolutely. The same as Trump has been opposed.

The difference is that with a president like Clinton, when his party lost control of Congress, he at least made efforts to pass bipartisan legislation. When Obama lost the House and then the Senate, he was too proud to bend his neck and accept that he would have to give up some of his agenda in order to attain his larger goals. He instead wrote hundreds of executive orders, which are easy to overturn. He was praised by liberals for not compromising, but the result is his legacy is being erased. Unilateral action rarely works out.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5368|London, England

uziq wrote:

Larssen wrote:

Depoliticising the military seems rather impossible considering it is inherently a political tool
the american military is meant to be of the people and for the people, not for the executive.

it's not 'rather impossible' to keep a military separate from the white house.
Well, it is, the President is the Commander in Chief, so he is, at least nominally, the leader of the military.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+492|3462
all this stuff is much simpler when you have a monarchy. a queen as commander-in-chief makes so much sense. especially when it's a queen is so adept at riding war elephants.

Larssen wrote:

and this will also be abused by the far right end of the spectrum to inflame identity politics.
get real, the far-right blame all crime and malaise on the immigrants, anyway. having official statistics isn't going to change diddly squat.

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-18 08:01:10)

Larssen
Member
+99|1898
Having statistics at their disposal adds an air of scientific legitimacy, increasing their electoral reach. There's a fucking ton of misguided alt righties who are highly educated, falling back on stats to 'prove' ethnic group X or Y is a problem. The 'real facts' 'liberals don't want to hear'
uziq
Member
+492|3462
i'm sure biker gangs and ethno-nationalist neo-nazis are really concerned about crime stats.
Larssen
Member
+99|1898
That's a foolish characterisation.
uziq
Member
+492|3462
i really don't care much for the balding faggots that no doubt make-up germany's right wing.

with regards to data, it really obviously depends on how you use it. data collection itself is not a priori bad.

collecting ethnicity information for the purposes of medicine seems wise. particularly when a disease comes along that wipes out people at least partly on a basis of their genetics, or at least strongly correlative to race/ethnicity. it doesn't even have to be public census information. being overly cautious about the topic of race seems ultimately detrimental. you can't wish them out of existence or pretend that certain ethnic groups are not disproportionately poor (or criminal, if that is the case).

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-18 08:33:19)

Larssen
Member
+99|1898
Well if we could guarantee it would only be used for medical purposes sure, but I'm very sceptical.
uziq
Member
+492|3462
ignoring that poverty/opportunity, crime, health, etc. are stratified by race, and essentially declaring that race/ethnicity does not exist in a population, is just stupidity. wishful thinking of the highest order. data is not necessarily bad. it is the beginning of a conversation and the starting point for meaningful, targeted policy or intervention.

of course corona is an exceptional example, but the fact you have a virus that affects certain ethnicities more than others, and meanwhile no fucking information whatsoever on ethnicities because you're adamant that 'race doesn't exist in germany', seems to me like a bad joke. what next, you don't record if someone has AIDS or HIV because you're afraid of stigmatising them? do germans really not look at turkish immigrants differently because 'ethnicity does not exist in germany'? fucking PUH-leeeeeze.

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-18 10:02:44)

Larssen
Member
+99|1898
It seems very difficult for you to grasp that data and terminology of ethnic or racial nature will be used for racialised thinking. Do you really believe that you'll get to a point where a multicultural society is perceived as the norm if you ignore this, or will in the far future 10th generation descendants from immigrants of different racial/ethnic groups still be primarily identified by those designations? & what about mixed people?

You tell me which is more likely. The way I see it societies that are most adamant to categorise their citizens in those ways are coincidentally the ones with the most active, worst and inflammatory divisions between racial/ethnic groups.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5368|London, England

Larssen wrote:

It seems very difficult for you to grasp that data and terminology of ethnic or racial nature will be used for racialised thinking. Do you really believe that you'll get to a point where a multicultural society is perceived as the norm if you ignore this, or will in the far future 10th generation descendants from immigrants of different racial/ethnic groups still be primarily identified by those designations? & what about mixed people?

You tell me which is more likely. The way I see it societies that are most adamant to categorise their citizens in those ways are coincidentally the ones with the most active, worst and inflammatory divisions between racial/ethnic groups.
Better to leave it off censuses. I'm not sure why we keep track of it. All it does is allow the political scientists to divide us based on demographics and expected voting patterns. More data is not always best.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+492|3462

Larssen wrote:

It seems very difficult for you to grasp that data and terminology of ethnic or racial nature will be used for racialised thinking. Do you really believe that you'll get to a point where a multicultural society is perceived as the norm if you ignore this, or will in the far future 10th generation descendants from immigrants of different racial/ethnic groups still be primarily identified by those designations? & what about mixed people?

You tell me which is more likely. The way I see it societies that are most adamant to categorise their citizens in those ways are coincidentally the ones with the most active, worst and inflammatory divisions between racial/ethnic groups.
i think multiculturalism is possible within plurality and tolerance, not abolishing very fucking obvious traits.

you can't wish away the fact that someone has their own ethnicity and their own culture.

i'm sure french people don't recognise someone's algerian or arab or african status whatsoever. nope. those banlieus are perfect representations of le corbusier's unité d'habitation!

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-18 10:22:28)

uziq
Member
+492|3462

Jay wrote:

Larssen wrote:

It seems very difficult for you to grasp that data and terminology of ethnic or racial nature will be used for racialised thinking. Do you really believe that you'll get to a point where a multicultural society is perceived as the norm if you ignore this, or will in the far future 10th generation descendants from immigrants of different racial/ethnic groups still be primarily identified by those designations? & what about mixed people?

You tell me which is more likely. The way I see it societies that are most adamant to categorise their citizens in those ways are coincidentally the ones with the most active, worst and inflammatory divisions between racial/ethnic groups.
Better to leave it off censuses. I'm not sure why we keep track of it. All it does is allow the political scientists to divide us based on demographics and expected voting patterns. More data is not always best.
yes, this will make sense the day that republicans start looking at latinx/hispanics as 'american' and do away with their own white fright and replacement theory bollocks.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5368|London, England

uziq wrote:

Jay wrote:

Larssen wrote:

It seems very difficult for you to grasp that data and terminology of ethnic or racial nature will be used for racialised thinking. Do you really believe that you'll get to a point where a multicultural society is perceived as the norm if you ignore this, or will in the far future 10th generation descendants from immigrants of different racial/ethnic groups still be primarily identified by those designations? & what about mixed people?

You tell me which is more likely. The way I see it societies that are most adamant to categorise their citizens in those ways are coincidentally the ones with the most active, worst and inflammatory divisions between racial/ethnic groups.
Better to leave it off censuses. I'm not sure why we keep track of it. All it does is allow the political scientists to divide us based on demographics and expected voting patterns. More data is not always best.
yes, this will make sense the day that republicans start looking at latinx/hispanics as 'american' and do away with their own white fright and replacement theory bollocks.
I guess it's unclear to you that keeping the data makes it worse?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+492|3462
i am not condoning using data for political advertising or campaigning. my original example, and my discussion with larssen, was about medical records. and, yes, generally i don't think you can ever expect someone to stop identifying with their ethnicity or culture. why would anyone even find that desirable? everyone sloughing off their individual and group identities to join some 'national' monoculture? no thank you.

when are you going to give up on your frankly ridiculous and pathetic identification with sweden? you're american, dumbo!

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-18 10:36:21)

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