Larssen
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I did say that maintaining our power position on the global stage was one of the priorities of western society. Nevertheless, the argument I was engaging in wasn't one on the intrinsic value or merits of western global governance but on the west versus china and economic performance as a measurement of succes.

Yes, there are apparent contradictions which flowed from western policies the world over. It is equally true that over the same time-period international institutions such as the UN and ICC (and many others) have matured and grown in prominence, by and large pushed for through western idealism. The system of states as we know it and the global community were initiatives that found their roots in European thinking. If you're a cynic, nihilist or deconstructionist then I'm sure we can pick apart these developments into the inherent or hidden but entrenched power structures that govern us and guide us to less-than-ethical or morally unsound actions and creations. But you're more than educated enough to know that analysis only through various lenses steeped in pessimism won't get you to a wholly truthful view of reality.

One of the few more positively inclined works you can find written by pragmatists such as Rorty (who thank god among all the philosophical beat-downs of postmodernism is willing to think in terms of future solutions). The pragmatist trend does end up full circle in the argument that different value systems and paradigms should meet one another in an 'edifying conversation', ergo a more informed/intelligent form of a democratic process. Acknowledging our imperfections, lack of perceptiveness, perhaps brutish realism if extrapolated to politics, and a willingness to consider our goals & ideals through the eyes of different and contrary schools of thought.

Ultimately and perhaps it is a sign of my western-centrism, but I do feel our cultures and societies are most capable of getting us there and that we have done the most so far to move in the right direction. Because of the permissiveness we have to criticism and the (though limited) collective openness to self-reflection.

Last edited by Larssen (2019-12-29 04:03:20)

uziq
Member
+492|3451
you say lens of pessimism, i say hermeneutics of suspicion!

levinas is just as good as rorty on 'meeting the other' and alterity. but better not to mention jews when dilbert is online.

Last edited by uziq (2019-12-29 04:08:05)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX
I don't care about jews either, if the Zionists weren't fucking up the whole world for their end-of-times prophecy the world would care less about them than they care about the Zoroastrians.
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Larssen
Member
+99|1886

uziq wrote:

you say lens of pessimism, i say hermeneutics of suspicion!
Noted!

Though here is where we encounter the issues of our day. While we'd all like to see ourselves engage in 'enlightened democracy' (for the lack of a better term), the idea of an edifying conversation or process presupposes that encounters between different schools should be knowledge-driven, brutally honest, informed by rigorous research, with recognition to the importance of new information or facts and adjustments in the face of them. By all participating parties.

This doesn't seem to be happening anywhere. The design of the international (state) system and our national democracies is at present inherently opposed to really achieving the equal footing required for such a process. In addition, there's several global and national groups which simply do not respect this idea at all, instead bolstering their efforts at spreading misinformation, manipulation and identity politics. Succesfully. Ironically those in their camp will agree with me but point to the 'agents of globalism' as the culprits. Moreover, even if we could facilitate an honest edifying process, we are still unable to wish away clashes which are deeply ideological in nature. Someone with the background and thought process of Sayyid Qutb violently, completely rejects any values and morals the West may care for. It's a fundamental incompatibility that can only lead to conflict regardless of our best intentions.

I haven't seen any thinkers try and tackle these issues and I feel like the major ideas guiding our principles all still stem from the post war period into the 70s. Are we stuck?

levinas is just as good as rorty on 'meeting the other' and alterity. but better not to mention jews when dilbert is online.
Thanks. I'll look into him after I get done with a book I picked up on stoicism.... which is far more interesting than you'd expect!

Last edited by Larssen (2019-12-29 06:54:34)

uziq
Member
+492|3451
i feel like we're getting back to our earlier discussion about technology and the media's central role in creating this balkanised state-of-affairs.

last week, even the new york times just published a piece about 'racial intelligence', taking as its source a 'paper' published by a white supremacist. meanwhile, they've gotten rid of their public editors and swathes of fact-checkers. oh dear.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX

Larssen wrote:

uziq wrote:

you say lens of pessimism, i say hermeneutics of suspicion!
Noted!

Though here is where we encounter the issues of our day. While we'd all like to see ourselves engage in 'enlightened democracy' (for the lack of a better term), the idea of an edifying conversation or process presupposes that encounters between different schools should be knowledge-driven, brutally honest, informed by rigorous research, with recognition to the importance of new information or facts and adjustments in the face of them. By all participating parties.

This doesn't seem to be happening anywhere. The design of the international (state) system and our national democracies is at present inherently opposed to really achieving the equal footing required for such a process. In addition, there's several global and national groups which simply do not respect this idea at all, instead bolstering their efforts at spreading misinformation, manipulation and identity politics. Succesfully. Ironically those in their camp will agree with me but point to the 'agents of globalism' as the culprits. Moreover, even if we could facilitate an honest edifying process, we are still unable to wish away clashes which are deeply ideological in nature. Someone with the background and thought process of Sayyid Qutb violently, completely rejects any values and morals the West may care for. It's a fundamental incompatibility that can only lead to conflict regardless of our best intentions.

I haven't seen any thinkers try and tackle these issues and I feel like the major ideas guiding our principles all still stem from the post war period into the 70s. Are we stuck?
Bigotry and intolerance stem from religion.

We've had 3500 years of vicious intolerant brutality from the jews and their demands that their intolerance and brutality must be tolerated and respected, the muslims picked up on it and now even the christians are turning to 'hate thy neighbour' and shouting down debate.

No rational discussion is allowed.
Your 401k has been emptied? You're an anti-semite!
Your daughter has been raped? STFU jew-hater!
Your son died attacking Israels foes? KYS nazi!

I could write a longer screed but Uzique will invoke the holocaust and that automatically invalidates anyone's arguments.

I'd be very happy to see a tolerant world without religion or bigotry, but apparently that makes me an intolerant bigot, so I dunno LOL.

Larssen can post a link to a Netflix docudrama funded by Mossad or the Scientologists here

V

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-12-29 14:32:25)

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uziq
Member
+492|3451
there’s enough bigotry and intolerance in secular societies, with no basis in religious doctrine, to easily scupper your theory. it’s the sort of hypothesis a 17 year old atheist has when he’s just finished reading Dawkins. ‘come into the light of science! the human animal can be fixed with Reason!’ we’ve been here before (and not in the 1990s, more like the 18th century).

zionism is a nationalist political project, not a theological vision.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX
Religious doctrine is bigotry. Shame it wasn't eradicated in the 18th century.

Zionism is a theological vision, what else is it?
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uziq
Member
+492|3451
way to miss my point. do you think if we remove religion, we remove our tendency for bigotry? how quaint. the 20th century was the century of secular nationalism. i mean, it was perfectly pacific and tolerant ...
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX
Why not give it a try?

Apart from the Germans causing the usual trouble most of the conflict in the 20th and 21st centuries has had its root in religion.
In slightly different circumstances it could have been jews or christians flying jets into skyscrapers.

I say lets try an experiment, for, say, a couple of centuries.
If people want to stitch themselves into their pyjamas or burn small animals in the privacy of their own home then fine, otherwise they need to keep their mouths shut.
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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
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Isn't the church supposed to be separate from the state?

https://www.rollingstone.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/trump-evangelicals-prayer.jpg
“What a group of people!” Trump exclaimed when he entered. “This is serious power. Fantastic. I don’t even know if I’ve ever seen this.”
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/p … mp-915381/
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unnamednewbie13
Moderator
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I feel like every time this kind of thing is brought up, people interpret it as an attack on their views, religious values, and by a weird psychological quirk their very person. It's like the process is automated now. All they needed was a personality from reality TV as the catalyst.

Like the Trump Train is less about Trump than it is sticking it to all those really nasty people who you've been told for decades hate you and everything about you.

It's probably a flawed way to put it, but it's my impression at a glance.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3718

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

I feel like every time this kind of thing is brought up, people interpret it as an attack on their views, religious values, and by a weird psychological quirk their very person. It's like the process is automated now. All they needed was a personality from reality TV as the catalyst.

Like the Trump Train is less about Trump than it is sticking it to all those really nasty people who you've been told for decades hate you and everything about you.

It's probably a flawed way to put it, but it's my impression at a glance.
It sometimes feels like America needs a crisis every decade to bottle up the petty culture war politics of small minded people. At least for awhile.

For instance the domestic politics of the 90's would be insignificant to the totality of American history if Hillary Clinton just disappeared in January of 2001. 9/11 and the War on Terrorism kept America mostly distracted until the Great Recession. Stem cell research/ gay marriage/ evolution in schools were debate topics from that time period that the Great Recession did away with. Too many derps in middle America were losing their homes to get angry about schools rejecting intelligent design.

Now that the T.V. says the economy is better, Americans are focused on culture war again. Immigration is the new thing to get middle America upset until they have to ship their kids to fight and lose to China in World War 3.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

I feel like every time this kind of thing is brought up, people interpret it as an attack on their views, religious values, and by a weird psychological quirk their very person.
Once again the jews did this. Every time people asked if its really OK for the IDF to be shooting kids in the head its "ZOMG YOU WANT TO PUT US ALL IN A GAS CHAMBER YOU FUCKING NAZI" All rationalilty went out of that debate and its infected every other now.

"You don't praise Jebus? WHY DON'T YOU JUST FLY A JET INTO A SKYSCRAPER THEN?"

Maybe the Chinese have it right with their civics camps.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-12-29 16:51:29)

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Larssen
Member
+99|1886

Dilbert_X wrote:

Bigotry and intolerance stem from religion.

We've had 3500 years of vicious intolerant brutality from the jews and their demands that their intolerance and brutality must be tolerated and respected, the muslims picked up on it and now even the christians are turning to 'hate thy neighbour' and shouting down debate.

No rational discussion is allowed.
Your 401k has been emptied? You're an anti-semite!
Your daughter has been raped? STFU jew-hater!
Your son died attacking Israels foes? KYS nazi!

I could write a longer screed but Uzique will invoke the holocaust and that automatically invalidates anyone's arguments.

I'd be very happy to see a tolerant world without religion or bigotry, but apparently that makes me an intolerant bigot, so I dunno LOL.

Larssen can post a link to a Netflix docudrama funded by Mossad or the Scientologists here

V
Dilbert, you are an anti semite because you have so thoroughly dehumanised that group of people you refuse to recognise individuality among them. You assume a singular state of mind and goal (i.e. world domination) for anyone who was born as or otherwise associates with Jews. You refuse to even read or watch anything that can be associated with Jews. You can't interpret any world event in its own context, but need to pass it through your 'Great Jewish Conspiracy Filter' so that your unhealthily obsessed pea-brain can hope to make sense of it. It's almost hilarious that on the one hand you can express your deep hatred for religion and especially Jews, who you label the root of all evil in recorded history, yet in the same post also state that you're a tolerant individual who wishes for world peace. You must constantly feel like you've been born in the wrong era.

Last edited by Larssen (2019-12-30 04:35:51)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
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I don't remember refusing to watch anything.

I'm sure the Nazis were all individuals, some of them great pianists etc, so what?
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Larssen
Member
+99|1886

uziq wrote:

i feel like we're getting back to our earlier discussion about technology and the media's central role in creating this balkanised state-of-affairs.

last week, even the new york times just published a piece about 'racial intelligence', taking as its source a 'paper' published by a white supremacist. meanwhile, they've gotten rid of their public editors and swathes of fact-checkers. oh dear.
Well yes, partly. The inevitable conclusion being that the current design of our democracies isn't sustainable. It's too susceptible to manipulation, too concerned with the short term. I'm increasingly convinced that our institutions need to be overhauled into a mix of technocratic and democratic governance with each holding equal weight and ensuring accountability over the other.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6104|eXtreme to the maX
Thats the point of having a Senate and a House of Representatives, competence and democracy, both keeping the executive in check.
As we are finding with the impeachment, if the Senate declines to fulfill its role then democracy collapses.
GOP Senators who have decided their verdict on party lines in advance of the hearing should themselves be impeached.
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DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+794|6683|United States of America
Hey, we knew the Senate abandoned its responsibilities years ago with the Garland nomination.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6630|949

Larssen wrote:

uziq wrote:

i feel like we're getting back to our earlier discussion about technology and the media's central role in creating this balkanised state-of-affairs.

last week, even the new york times just published a piece about 'racial intelligence', taking as its source a 'paper' published by a white supremacist. meanwhile, they've gotten rid of their public editors and swathes of fact-checkers. oh dear.
Well yes, partly. The inevitable conclusion being that the current design of our democracies isn't sustainable. It's too susceptible to manipulation, too concerned with the short term. I'm increasingly convinced that our institutions need to be overhauled into a mix of technocratic and democratic governance with each holding equal weight and ensuring accountability over the other.
I'm interested in hearing your thoughts re: China's ruling technocratic elite.

this article came to mind when I was reading the discourse between you and uzi, especially in regards to your critique of China's critique of western democracy, and the constant  nonsense (seriously a waste of time reading that I will never get back, unfortunately - sucks for me) dilbert has put forth regarding the merits of STEM vs. humanities in leadership roles.

I wish I could join the discussion but unfortunately im far too busy to spend the time to discuss the very interesting conversation going on. With the exception of Jay's input - he's an idiot, as per usual.
uziq
Member
+492|3451
there is a fantastic article in the LRB about china's technocratic vision. luckily their paywall is down until january 7th, thanks to a website overhaul, so you can all read it.

https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v41/n19 … umber-nine

To understand the Chinese government’s view of these matters, the simplest technique is to hold on to that idea of diametric opposites. Gorbachev? ‘Gorbachev was once widely praised by the West and his political reform even won much admiration in China,’ an editorial explained in the People’s Daily in 2010. ‘But, it was Gorbachev that finally ruined the Soviet Union. Therefore, China must not follow the Western world’s practice on crucial issues such as internet control and supervision.’ Donald Trump? The People’s Daily again, via Twitter this time: ‘@realdonaldtrump is right. #fakenews is the enemy. China has known this for years.’ Tiananmen was a disaster for China, no? Au contraire: in Griffiths’s words, ‘it was argued, even by those who had recognised the horrors experienced in Beijing, that China’s subsequent prosperity and modernity justified the crackdown; that without Deng’s firm hand in 1989, he would not have been able to oversee subsequent reforms that led to an economic boom.’

The most important of these diametric opposites concerns Western liberal values. In 2013, an amazing paper from the highest reaches of the CCP, catchily known as ‘Document Number Nine’, or ‘Communiqué on the Current State of the Ideological Sphere’, came to light. (The journalist who leaked it, Gao Yu, was sentenced to seven years in prison and is currently under house arrest.) Document Number Nine warned of ‘the following false ideological trends, positions and activities’: ‘promoting Western constitutional democracy’; ‘promoting “universal values”’; ‘promoting civil society’; ‘promoting neoliberalism’; ‘promoting the West’s idea of journalism, challenging China’s principle that the media and publishing system should be subject to party discipline’; ‘promoting historical nihilism’ (which means contradicting the party’s view of history); ‘questioning Reform and Opening and the socialist nature of socialism with Chinese characteristics’. The paper, which is cogent and clear, takes direct aim at the core values of Western democracy, and explicitly identifies them as the enemies of the party.1 It sees the internet as a crucial forum for defeating these enemies. The conclusion speaks of the need to ‘conscientiously strengthen management of the ideological battlefield’, and especially to ‘strengthen guidance of public opinion on the internet’ and ‘purify the environment of public opinion on the internet’.

Document Number Nine is thought to have been either directly written by, or under the auspices of, President Xi Jinping. It marked a new turn in the history of China, and quite possibly the history of the world: the moment at which a powerful nation-state looked at the entire internet’s direction of travel – towards openness, interconnection, globalisation, the free flow of information – and decided to reverse it. In effect, it was a decision to prove the Western boosters of the internet – holders of Friedman’s nutcracker view – wrong.
Larssen
Member
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When I referred to technocratic governance I didn't try to imply that people with natural & formal science degrees should be put in positions of power more often. As far as I'm aware that wouldn't be technocratic at all. The article you linked (ken) points towards at least one mismatch that doesn't make sense: a geologist acting as the domestic security chief in China. Technocracy, in my view, is more about putting people with deep and thorough knowledge in a certain subject in a decision-making capacity directly related to their field of expertise.

As your article rightly points out, China is only hailed as a technocracy on the surface by its admirers and portrayed as such by internal propaganda. But in reality it's a system, and dare I say a culture, where nepotism seems to be more important than anything else. A rise to a position of power is most of all determined by your connections, friends and family. The system is only somewhat saved because there is competence-based selection of sorts, but it isn't nearly the only or most important factor in the CCP's party politics machine. I haven't gone through the details of Xi's purging of 'corruption' in the party, but I'm fairly certain the culture of nepotism will remain largely untouched in that crackdown. The fact that his doctorate and those of others appear to be largely plagiarised is also typical. In extension, it's no secret or surprise that all the new rich kids of party & business officials end up studying in the West rather than at one of the 'prestigious' Chinese institutions. Not something you'd imagine a supposedly technocratic society would do...

The mix of technocratic and democratic governance that I wrote of doesn't resemble this in the slightest. The idea stems from how in the last two decades discussions have evolved on issues such as climate change, trade, foreign policy and nationalism and the part that blatant misinformation has played. There is more, but climate change might be one of the best examples, as the underlying science is deeply politicised and various interest groups do their utmost to lend credit and authority to charlatans propagating a reality of 'alternative facts'. In many countries this has led to denialist movements which are large enough to find representation in politics, influencing or outright blocking any report or policy on this issue. In government and especially politics policy formulation also seems rife with people who have little to no (formal) understanding of the issue they're trying to tackle.

A more technocratic approach would be to at least respect the conclusions and findings published by eminent experts in the climate science field, to give them more visibility, and perhaps even a say in policy formulation on this specific issue. Not just in an advisory capacity but in one where beyond informing the debate they can exercise some direct or indirect control on a government response. To be applied in other fields as well, to avoid or prevent policy being maligned by populist trends or overbearing politicians with a penchant for ignoring and dismissing their advisors until they find one who just tells them what they want to hear. I can't immediately say what that structure is supposed to look like in practice, but I imagine the visibility of these experts in a democratic system should be an important facet.
uziq
Member
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2020: the revenge of the experts.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
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A proper "technocracy" should give computers the right to vote!
uziq
Member
+492|3451
there is a really interesting historical use of centralized tech and computers being used in latin america, first for revolutionary purposes and then co-opted by reactionaries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn

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