KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6602|949

"Follow your bliss" - Joseph Campbell
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

look at Jay defending him on this website. The guy who for the last 8 years has made his persona on being a libertarian non-interventionist neoliberal telling us Trump's foreign policy agenda is solid.

It's beyond cognitive dissonance.
Didn't Jay admit voting for Trump?

Jay's cognitive dissonance, advocating freedom vs statism but choosing statism at every turn in his own life, and wilfully ignoring that it doesn't work in any situation and never has, I don't understand it.

Not sure how cognitive dissonance works in anyone, maybe its an educational step which gets missed in childhood.
The whole fake news thing was probably carefully designed to feed into it.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-12-23 14:46:11)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

look at Jay defending him on this website. The guy who for the last 8 years has made his persona on being a libertarian non-interventionist neoliberal telling us Trump's foreign policy agenda is solid.

It's beyond cognitive dissonance.
Didn't Jay admit voting for Trump?

Jay's cognitive dissonance, advocating freedom vs statism but choosing statism at every turn in his own life, and wilfully ignoring that it doesn't work in any situation and never has, I don't understand it.

Not sure how cognitive dissonance works in anyone, maybe its an educational step which gets missed in childhood.
The whole fake news thing was probably carefully designed to feed into it.
No, I voted for Gary Johnson
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

No, I voted for Gary Johnson
Fake news!
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
My other favourite bit of cognitive dissonance is when people say:
"I didn't get it wrong, I mis-spoke"
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689
Am I wrong for feeling more threatened by Trump than China? I really resent people trying to get me involved in opposing China while the wealthy in my own country are trying to disrupt my way of life.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Am I wrong for feeling more threatened by Trump than China? I really resent people trying to get me involved in opposing China while the wealthy in my own country are trying to disrupt my way of life.
How so? You're in a union in a deep blue state.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England
Also, you're objectively shit at your job and shouldn't be anywhere near children. If the "rich people" had any real power to force accountability upon you then you should be worried. Alas, they don't. It's a fucking travesty that you will end up with tenure if you don't already have it.if my kids end up with someone like you I will be campaigning for a school board seat.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Am I wrong for feeling more threatened by Trump than China? I really resent people trying to get me involved in opposing China while the wealthy in my own country are trying to disrupt my way of life.
How so? You're in a union in a deep blue state.
The wealthy in the U.S. want to destroy my union and lower my wages to in order cut taxes. The Chinese aren't voting in the republicans to do that.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Am I wrong for feeling more threatened by Trump than China? I really resent people trying to get me involved in opposing China while the wealthy in my own country are trying to disrupt my way of life.
How so? You're in a union in a deep blue state.
You're in the highest taxing/spending part of the country.
Still waiting to see you vote with your feet.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3422

Jay wrote:

Also, you're objectively shit at your job and shouldn't be anywhere near children. If the "rich people" had any real power to force accountability upon you then you should be worried. Alas, they don't. It's a fucking travesty that you will end up with tenure if you don't already have it.if my kids end up with someone like you I will be campaigning for a school board seat.
tenure? isn’t tenure for university professors? wtf, do high school teachers get given tenure in the states? why? the whole point of it is that it gives an academic job security (in an incredibly precarious field) so that they can commence longer pieces of research and sustained collaboration. academics can’t be expected to write 5-year monographs or top-level research when every year they have to fill out hundreds of job applications, grant and funding forms, etc, as is the case for the vast majority of university workers. the fuck do high school teachers need it for?

Last edited by uziq (2019-12-25 02:57:57)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
I thought the point was so they could do research on contentious issues without fear of political interference.

Here primary school teachers get permanence and can then never be fired.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3422
well that's a bonus, yes, 'academic freedom', but in these times tenure is coveted by academics because it's literally a non-precarious job. it can take 10-15 years on short-term contracts with no ordinary job security before a 'junior' (i.e. 10 years of school and 10 years of work experience) academic gets a tenured role. university administrators love the current state of things: they've systematically reduced tenured positions and upped the rota of 'adjunct' professors. hence why tenure has acquired a mythical lustre. oh to have a job with actual security! i'm pretty sure the stats are hovering around 10-15% of people with PhD's ever getting tenure. and even then, you better be happy taking your john hopkins or berkeley doctorate to the state college of rural buttfuck. enjoy relocating and settling in boise for 10 years!

i imagine it's much worse in america due to their vastly different employment laws and regulations. tenure isn't really even a term used in UK/europe.

it's funny that jay adopts some anti-union stance. unions are historically the best, tried-and-tested way for blue collar workers to get into a semblance of the middle-class. to look out for their childrens' futures and improve their material status. you'd think jay would have a union tattoo across his shoulders. that's literally his dream life arc.

Last edited by uziq (2019-12-25 02:59:26)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

uziq wrote:

Jay wrote:

Also, you're objectively shit at your job and shouldn't be anywhere near children. If the "rich people" had any real power to force accountability upon you then you should be worried. Alas, they don't. It's a fucking travesty that you will end up with tenure if you don't already have it.if my kids end up with someone like you I will be campaigning for a school board seat.
tenure? isn’t tenure for university professors? wtf, do high school teachers get given tenure in the states? why? the whole point of it is that it gives an academic job security (in an incredibly precarious field) so that they can commence longer pieces of research and sustained collaboration. academics can’t be expected to write 5-year monographs or top-level research when every year they have to fill out hundreds of job applications, grant and funding forms, etc, as is the case for the vast majority of university workers. the fuck do high school teachers need it for?
Yes, they get it automatically after a few years. It takes an act of god to fire a teacher after they attain it.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+492|3422
i'm going to hedge my bets and side with the teachers/unions on this one. judging by the widespread teacher action in america recently, it seems like they are massively underpaid and undervalued.

weren't they being forced in one state to wear fitbits and do x amount of exercise every day before they could qualify for basic health coverage? yeah, fuck that.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

uziq wrote:

well that's a bonus, yes, 'academic freedom', but in these times tenure is coveted by academics because it's literally a non-precarious job. it can take 10-15 years on short-term contracts with no ordinary job security before a 'junior' (i.e. 10 years of school and 10 years of work experience) academic gets a tenured role. university administrators love the current state of things: they've systematically reduced tenured positions and upped the rota of 'adjunct' professors. hence why tenure has acquired a mythical lustre. oh to have a job with actual security! i'm pretty sure the stats are hovering around 10-15% of people with PhD's ever getting tenure. and even then, you better be happy taking your john hopkins or berkeley doctorate to the state college of rural buttfuck. enjoy relocating and settling in boise for 10 years!

i imagine it's much worse in america due to their vastly different employment laws and regulations. tenure isn't really even a term used in UK/europe.

it's funny that jay adopts some anti-union stance. unions are historically the best, tried-and-tested way for blue collar workers to get into a semblance of the middle-class. to look out for their childrens' futures and improve their material status. you'd think jay would have a union tattoo across his shoulders. that's literally his dream life arc.
I'm not anti private sector union. I am anti public sector unions. In negotiations, there need to be opposing parties.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

uziq wrote:

i'm going to hedge my bets and side with the teachers/unions on this one. judging by the widespread teacher action in america recently, it seems like they are massively underpaid and undervalued.

weren't they being forced in one state to wear fitbits and do x amount of exercise every day before they could qualify for basic health coverage? yeah, fuck that.
Considering they work 9 months out of th he year, get pensions, health care for life, and tenured positions they can't get fired from, I'd say their near six figures salaries are adequate. Schools are funded via property taxes in the US. Their salaries reflect the communities in which they teach. Poor area with poor property values? Lower pay, but also dirt cheap cost of living so it's a wash. They've somehow gotten it into their heads that they are underpaid because they have to spend an extra two years in college to get a teaching certificate. Two whole years. The horror!
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+492|3422
it’s amazing to me that you’re married to a teacher but still parrot all the usual lines about ‘teachers being lazy’. term time is 9 months of the year. and how many evenings during term time do they give over to marking homework, papers, essays, etc? what are their commitments outside of teaching, for example lesson and curriculum planning? none of this is accounted for in ‘classroom time’.

near six figure salaries? where are high-school teachers paid that much money? a quick google search tells me that the average high school teacher salary in penns is $60,000. which, yeah, i guess is nearly 6 figures. 60% of 6 figures. that is, the majority of the bell curve of average salaries away from six figures.

the average high school teacher salary in virginia is $45,000. bearing in mind they require the same qualifications as a teacher anywhere else. sounds opulent. i guess it makes sense in your worldview to abandon the children of west virginia because the property prices in that area are not sufficiently high. great thinking, dickhead.

two extra years of college on top of three/four years at undergraduate? that sounds like 6 more years of academic college, and college loans, than you ever took.

Last edited by uziq (2019-12-25 10:14:19)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

uziq wrote:

it’s amazing to me that you’re married to a teacher but still parrot all the usual lines about ‘teachers being lazy’. term time is 9 months of the year. and how many evenings during term time do they give over to marking homework, papers, essays, etc? what are their commitments outside of teaching, for example lesson and curriculum planning? none of this is accounted for in ‘classroom time’.

near six figure salaries? where are high-school teachers paid that much money? a quick google search tells me that the average high school teacher salary in penns is $60,000. which, yeah, i guess is nearly 6 figures. 60% of 6 figures. that is, the majority of the bell curve of average salaries away from six figures.

the average high school teacher salary in virginia is $45,000. bearing in mind they require the same qualifications as a teacher anywhere else. sounds opulent. i guess it makes sense in your worldview to abandon the children of west virginia because the property prices in that area are not sufficiently high. great thinking, dickhead.

two extra years of college on top of three/four years at undergraduate? that sounds like 6 more years of academic college, and college loans, than you ever took.
This is 7 years old: https://libn.com/2012/06/13/long-island … -new-york/

And the children aren't being abandoned in West Virginia. The cost of living is nothing there. 45k is middle class.

And no, my wife is not a teacher. Her mother is, and so are many of her friends.

This is one of those many instances you shouldn't comment on something that does not pertain to your own country or experience
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+492|3422
it’s literally crazy to me that you’re happy for teachers in poor areas to be paid shit and not complain about their working conditions or employment rights. so is a teacher supposed to relocate to a ghetto and settle there forever, and accept being below the national average? what’s the incentive, exactly, for someone to qualify as a teacher with two degrees and then voluntarily have no spending power whatsoever for the rest of their life? what’s the retirement plan or pension cash out looking like for a teacher in west virginia?

what you’re saying would cash out if all the teachers in the area were recruited locally, and went to colleges in west virginia, for example. but they don’t. their student loans can be accrued in chicago or california. it doesn’t make any sense to me. i guess that’s just the hieratic ‘wisdom’ of the market for you.

i’m glad they have the wherewithal to organise and act in solidarity. you should stop shitting on ‘public’ unions. just because the state has been a munificent mother to you, don’t judge others. people doing an important job which is also a public service, people who don’t chase the dollar in private industry or business, should be able to collectively organise and bargain to their hearts’ content. are HVAC engineers’ wages indexed to property prices?

Last edited by uziq (2019-12-25 12:52:32)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6742|PNW

Jay wrote:

This is one of those many instances you shouldn't comment on something that does not pertain to your own country or experience
Just going to interject with how the US is also my country, incentive should be such as to more evenly distribute quality teachers, and that something should be done about the state of poor areas having poor schools and rich areas having rich schools.

Did a teacher hurt you at some point in your life?

e:
Perpetually having to beg voters for money. What a great state of affairs.
https://www.ideastream.org/stateimpact/ … io-ballots
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

well that's a bonus, yes, 'academic freedom', but in these times tenure is coveted by academics because it's literally a non-precarious job.
Its not a bonus, its the original whole purpose of tenure, to allow academics to research contentious areas.
"Tenure is a means of defending the principle of academic freedom, which holds that it is beneficial for society in the long run if scholars are free to hold and examine a variety of views."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_tenure

Its not just to give academics a cushy life.

Sure its coveted, it shouldn't have been extended down to primary school teachers, the intent is irrelevant at that level.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

Considering they work 9 months out of th he year, get pensions, health care for life, and tenured positions they can't get fired from, I'd say their near six figures salaries are adequate. Schools are funded via property taxes in the US. Their salaries reflect the communities in which they teach. Poor area with poor property values? Lower pay, but also dirt cheap cost of living so it's a wash. They've somehow gotten it into their heads that they are underpaid because they have to spend an extra two years in college to get a teaching certificate. Two whole years. The horror!
Still not understanding why you don't relocate to Utah or Alaska to live your Libertarian dream.

You'd take a cut in salary but cost of living would drop too, so that would be a wash - you wouldn't be underpaid. And you've said you make friends wherever you go so thats not a factor.

You can't put a cash value on leaving the highest taxing-spending most socialist part of America where unions are bleeding you dry through taxes and moving to a place with much low taxes and infinity times the freedom.

Seems like you have no excuses for not following through on your supposed ideology.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

uziq wrote:

it’s literally crazy to me that you’re happy for teachers in poor areas to be paid shit and not complain about their working conditions or employment rights. so is a teacher supposed to relocate to a ghetto and settle there forever, and accept being below the national average? what’s the incentive, exactly, for someone to qualify as a teacher with two degrees and then voluntarily have no spending power whatsoever for the rest of their life? what’s the retirement plan or pension cash out looking like for a teacher in west virginia?

what you’re saying would cash out if all the teachers in the area were recruited locally, and went to colleges in west virginia, for example. but they don’t. their student loans can be accrued in chicago or california. it doesn’t make any sense to me. i guess that’s just the hieratic ‘wisdom’ of the market for you.

i’m glad they have the wherewithal to organise and act in solidarity. you should stop shitting on ‘public’ unions. just because the state has been a munificent mother to you, don’t judge others. people doing an important job which is also a public service, people who don’t chase the dollar in private industry or business, should be able to collectively organise and bargain to their hearts’ content. are HVAC engineers’ wages indexed to property prices?
I don't think you understand how economically diverse America is across regions. $90k/yr here is equivalent to making $45k/yr in West Virginia or Mississippi or Alabama. It's a solid middle class salary when accounting for cost of living. Teachers are not poor by any means. Many have just gotten it into their heads that because they spent an extra 2 years in college in their 20s they should be paid like doctors and lawyers for the rest of their life. Last I checked doctors and lawyers don't get tenure, guaranteed benefits, cost of living increases, pensions or 3 months off a year. It's a cushy life, it's just a profession full of very unhappy and entitled people. I'm surprised you didn't become a teacher, honestly. You have the perfect personality.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+492|3422

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

well that's a bonus, yes, 'academic freedom', but in these times tenure is coveted by academics because it's literally a non-precarious job.
Its not a bonus, its the original whole purpose of tenure, to allow academics to research contentious areas.
"Tenure is a means of defending the principle of academic freedom, which holds that it is beneficial for society in the long run if scholars are free to hold and examine a variety of views."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_tenure

Its not just to give academics a cushy life.

Sure its coveted, it shouldn't have been extended down to primary school teachers, the intent is irrelevant at that level.
i mean, yes, that is obviously the point of tenure. i wasn't contradicting you. i mean the profession has been so squeezed by marketisation and over-weening bureaucracies/administrators/vice chancellors that now tenure is seen as a 'haven' of merely good employment. the rest is all a bonus, relative to just securing a good contract.

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