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uziq
Member
+163|1767
what astounds me with americans is the cognitive dissonance involved in all the ‘self reliance’ cant. it’s always espoused by people who had a free ride through college or somesuch. people are very revisionist about their way up the greasy pole once they’ve ascended to a pleasant height. and those haves always want to take away the safety net from the have-nots.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,965|3672|London, England

uziq wrote:

what astounds me with americans is the cognitive dissonance involved in all the ‘self reliance’ cant. it’s always espoused by people who had a free ride through college or somesuch. people are very revisionist about their way up the greasy pole once they’ve ascended to a pleasant height. and those haves always want to take away the safety net from the have-nots.
I didn't say anything about cutting anything we currently have. A lot of it is inefficient and needs to be modified, especially the programs which encourage people in poverty to stay unmarried and have kids without paternal involvement. Cutting programs like social security which people have paid into their entire lives is a political non-starter anyway.

The problem we are experiencing is that it's very easy for novices to dream up big programs that will solve all of our problems. It's very difficult for these same people to fix older programs and issues because it requires an experience and expertise that they completely lack. These are not details people. The problem is that when you have big grandiose dreams that will impact the lives of 330,000,000 people you better get the details right or you are going to fuck up a lot of lives.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+163|1767
is anyone seriously pretending that AOC is going to implement an economic reform that will effect '330,000,000' people fundamentally, or are you just scaremongering? if donald trump can't build a wall i very much doubt his democrat-equivalent is going to seamlessly implement a top-down restructuring of american society.

and 'grandiose ideas' also includes free-market ideology, neoliberalism, etc., which are nothing more than political ideologies couched in economist pseudo-scientific jargon. trickle-down economics was a grandiose idea, as divorced from reality as social democratic redistribution.

Last edited by uziq (2019-03-12 06:13:30)

SuperJail Warden
Member
+195|2034

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

All of this stuff about self reliance is fantastic sounding until you realize that in America your entire life can get ruined because of forces out of your control and there are few safe guards to protect you.

In America a guy can shot you from a hotel room and you then need to spend the rest of your life paying medical bills and physical therapy while being broke. Only in America do people beg for money on GoFundMe to pay medical cost.
There is always randomness in life. You could be diagnosed with cancer tomorrow. You could get hit by a car walking across the street. You can't risk assess your way through life or you'll be cowed by fear. The people trying to sell you socialism are the people that are preying on your fear of being lost in the world without guidance or protection. They are offering you the warm maternal embrace of a comforting parental figure while in reality all they really want to do is act as your personal shopper and run up your credit cards. Live within your means, save your money. This is the only way to gain the financial security you crave. It's by no means easy, but it really is the only way.
I don't want universal healthcare because I am cowed by fear and need a mom figure. I want it because it will make it easier and cheaper to see an eye doctor when my vision starts to get blurry. I pay a premium each month for insurance I don't use because I don't want to get more medical bills and pay a co-pays just to be told "we don't know" or "you are fine".
SuperJail Warden
Member
+195|2034

uziq wrote:

what astounds me with americans is the cognitive dissonance involved in all the ‘self reliance’ cant. it’s always espoused by people who had a free ride through college or somesuch. people are very revisionist about their way up the greasy pole once they’ve ascended to a pleasant height. and those haves always want to take away the safety net from the have-nots.
In reality a lot of the haves end up poor or need assistance from their adult children when they are too old to live. All of your prime working years and savings don't count for anything when you are old, can't work, and have to pay medical bills for age related illness.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,965|3672|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

All of this stuff about self reliance is fantastic sounding until you realize that in America your entire life can get ruined because of forces out of your control and there are few safe guards to protect you.

In America a guy can shot you from a hotel room and you then need to spend the rest of your life paying medical bills and physical therapy while being broke. Only in America do people beg for money on GoFundMe to pay medical cost.
There is always randomness in life. You could be diagnosed with cancer tomorrow. You could get hit by a car walking across the street. You can't risk assess your way through life or you'll be cowed by fear. The people trying to sell you socialism are the people that are preying on your fear of being lost in the world without guidance or protection. They are offering you the warm maternal embrace of a comforting parental figure while in reality all they really want to do is act as your personal shopper and run up your credit cards. Live within your means, save your money. This is the only way to gain the financial security you crave. It's by no means easy, but it really is the only way.
I don't want universal healthcare because I am cowed by fear and need a mom figure. I want it because it will make it easier and cheaper to see an eye doctor when my vision starts to get blurry. I pay a premium each month for insurance I don't use because I don't want to get more medical bills and pay a co-pays just to be told "we don't know" or "you are fine".
That's what insurance is... it's a just in case thing. You have insurance on your car just in case you get in a wreck, yeah? Even if you replaced health insurance with a national health care model you're still paying a premium, it just comes out of your taxes instead of being a line item on your pay stub. I fail to see why you are complaining about something like this, as a teacher you have better and cheaper insurance than anyone else. I pay $516.51 every two weeks. Wanna trade?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Member
+195|2034
Teacher insurance used to be lower before free market Republican "reforms" raised them in order to cut taxes in NJ.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,965|3672|London, England
You mean before the taxpayers asked you to kick in more for your benefits? Teachers are overpaid.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+163|1767
of all the people to accuse of being overpaid in a massively unequal society, i'm not sure teachers are near the top of that list. do you kick nurses too?
SuperJail Warden
Member
+195|2034
The average teacher salary in NJ is $70,000. You need at least a BA with additional graduate level coursework to get a full license. I also work from home every day and on the weekends. I work at school from 730 to 250 and from 6-8 at home. Sunday I lesson plan from 1 to 8.
SuperJail Warden
Member
+195|2034
I had to explain how health insurance worked to some young adults the other day. Explaining what a premium, deductable, and co-pays all are to someone just showed how ridiculous the whole thing is as opposed to "you pay taxes and go to the hospital for free".
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,965|3672|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

The average teacher salary in NJ is $70,000. You need at least a BA with additional graduate level coursework to get a full license. I also work from home every day and on the weekends. I work at school from 730 to 250 and from 6-8 at home. Sunday I lesson plan from 1 to 8.
You work 180 days a year not including sick time, personal days and vacation and receive a full pension with cadillac benefit packages. 7:30 to 2:50 is less than a full day. Every teacher cries, but you all have it easy.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,965|3672|London, England

uziq wrote:

of all the people to accuse of being overpaid in a massively unequal society, i'm not sure teachers are near the top of that list. do you kick nurses too?
Nurses are underpaid. Teachers are not.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Member
+195|2034
You know I just realized this teacher hate is basically the result of you having a shitty childhood.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,965|3672|London, England
No, it's because I've been overexposed to teachers as an adult. Between spending years working to fix schools, listening to my wifes teacher friends bitch incessantly, and realizing that the forever woe-is-me supposedly overworked teachers are really making upper middle class salaries while working half the year. The day after de Blasio passed a 15% pay bump for teachers as one of his first acts, I was sitting in a teachers lounge in Far Rockaway eating my lunch and had to listen to twenty teachers sitting around the table bitching that it wasn't enough. 99% of people on this planet would kill for a 15% raise.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+163|1767
teaching is much like law over here: there's a weird vocational social culture that settles in, normally during training, where they all become convinced they are doing the hardest + most hardcore + most sacrificial job of all time. speak to any training or early career teacher over here and they will make out they are a chaplain on the ww2 normandy beaches or something. they all feed off one another and escalate one another's sense of unique importance/stress/responsibility. it's like a game of brinksmanship. 'i did 13 hours today!'

the difference i guess is that teachers over here are paid like shit. they get entrenched and take a weird pride in their sacrifice.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,965|3672|London, England

uziq wrote:

teaching is much like law over here: there's a weird vocational social culture that settles in, normally during training, where they all become convinced they are doing the hardest + most hardcore + most sacrificial job of all time. speak to any training or early career teacher over here and they will make out they are a chaplain on the ww2 normandy beaches or something. they all feed off one another and escalate one another's sense of unique importance/stress/responsibility. it's like a game of brinksmanship. 'i did 13 hours today!'

the difference i guess is that teachers over here are paid like shit. they get entrenched and take a weird pride in their sacrifice.
It really is awful to be around them whenever they start talking about work. It's nothing but cattiness and hatred for the work they do and the kids they teach. It's not universal, there are some that seem to rise above the fray, but mein gott, the abysmal morale in nearly every school I visited made me want to run away. Honestly, the only ones that seemed to be having a good time were the people who switched from another career because they wanted to spend more time with their kids or whatever. They'd spent enough time in the private sector to realize how good they really had it. The ones that went straight from school into teaching had no perspective and developed a really severe victim mentality that was just toxic to everyone around them.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Member
+195|2034
I don't think you guys fully understand the pressure put on teachers. Since everyone has sat in a classroom before, they think they could handle teaching or know everything that needs to be done.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,747|5086|USA

uziq wrote:

teaching is much like law over here: there's a weird vocational social culture that settles in, normally during training, where they all become convinced they are doing the hardest + most hardcore + most sacrificial job of all time. speak to any training or early career teacher over here and they will make out they are a chaplain on the ww2 normandy beaches or something. they all feed off one another and escalate one another's sense of unique importance/stress/responsibility. it's like a game of brinksmanship. 'i did 13 hours today!'

the difference i guess is that teachers over here are paid like shit. they get entrenched and take a weird pride in their sacrifice.
This is eerily common with so many jobs. It's the kind of thing that spawned wall placards scrawled with "my job is secure; nobody wants it," collections of commiserating coffee mugs, bumper stickers, and other forms of industrialized kitsch. Like dealing with an aggravating customer, coworker, contract, or some other project elevates you to tortured sainthood.

Yet for all the abject whining, zero effort is often put into finding another career.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,615|4420|eXtreme to the maX
They only problem I've had with teachers is getting a drink out of them, I'd buy rounds and they'd put their hands in the pockets and look at the floor - when I knew they were earning more than me they'd still plead poverty.

Also its ridiculous that primary school teachers here effectively get tenure, something that was intended for university professors so they could publish research without fear.
Your virus system is infected with windows. Please to be giving me your credit card details urgently
uziq
Member
+163|1767
university teachers don't get tenure anymore, haha.
SuperJail Warden
Member
+195|2034
Jay are you going to homeschool your kid or do you plan to leave them all day with a bunch of people you want to underpay?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,965|3672|London, England
Private school if I can afford it
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Member
+195|2034
So underpaid teachers then.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,965|3672|London, England
My local public school is overrun with illegals and there is MS-13 in the high school.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

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