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uziq
Member
+164|1771
what constitutes 'qualification' in russia? you literally formed a government out of thieves and robbers, looters of state industry. we have no ministers who are worth billions of dollars because of their pirate-level skimming of oil or gas assets. it is simply not comparable.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+282|5094|Moscow, Russia
well, first, i didn't participate in forming any government - i'm a commie and i refuse to give the fuckers legitimacy by taking part in their so-called "democracy".
and, second, i don't represent russia and it's "qualifications", i only speak for myself. and, personally, i know many people who'd be a lot better at arguing with small children with intent of motivating them to be ambitious and productive in their lives than the old hag in the video posted by mac. those are called "pedagogues", they are professionals at what they do, and if it was up to me, i'd let them handle the kids.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,747|5090|USA

My god, a senator answering questions about the senate and other government stuff. What scandal. Surely there's a more appropriate person for this task.
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+282|5094|Moscow, Russia
the question, which you obviously didn't read, was about senators arguing with small children.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
uziq
Member
+164|1771
shahter you seem confused. yes, pedagogues are better at educating and instructing children (it’s kind of in the name...). but the senator isn’t there to give guidance to the children; they are there to petition her for political change. a pedagogue doesn’t make climate policy. why does this have to be explained to you? yes, it’s a little hokey and staged to have politically illiterate children approach a career politician, but they are quite right when they say that decisions being made today impact them the most (whereas senator in question is clearly only
interested in lobbying and decision-making in the timeframe of the next elected term). i don’t see what your issue is?
SuperJail Warden
Member
+195|2038
Anyway people on the right and in the mythical land of the center are complaining that the democrats are going too far advocating socialism. A lot the ideas sound silly and I don't think will work but I am willing to give them a try. As long as the Republicans advocate for low taxes and market regulation, the democrats can't possibly go too far left for me on economic issues.

In fact I don't want to hear a damn thing from a politician if they support Republican economic policy. I would sooner vote for a fat black tranny than a free market libertarian.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,965|3677|London, England
Because you're economically illiterate and supposedly shielded from market forces by your public union job. Don't cry to us when your town goes bankrupt and your pension evaporates. It will happen. You live in a state that elected a retard and already runs mega deficits.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Member
+195|2038
You just said that fascism, socialism, progressivism, Nazism, and the Soviet Union are all part of the same movement on like Friday. So hush about illiteracy.

Good luck when your 401K goes to shit because the free market crashed wall street again..

Last edited by SuperJail Warden (2019-03-10 17:55:22)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,616|4425|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

Because you're economically illiterate and supposedly shielded from market forces by your public union job. Don't cry to us when your town goes bankrupt and your pension evaporates. It will happen. You live in a state that elected a retard and already runs mega deficits.
This again, I bet half your income depends on bloated govt contracts.
Your virus system is infected with windows. Please to be giving me your credit card details urgently
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,965|3677|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

You just said that fascism, socialism, progressivism, Nazism, and the Soviet Union are all part of the same movement on like Friday. So hush about illiteracy.

Good luck when your 401K goes to shit because the free market crashed wall street again..
They all spring from the same philosophical tree, yes. How do you teach history when you are so ignorant?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+164|1771
socialism was theorised over 100 years before fascism in entirely different economic conditions, and in fact under a markedly different phase of industrialism. it stressed collectivism and had a strong strain of utopianism in it. to say that it 'springs from the same philosophical tree' as fascism makes sense if you categorise literally every political science as 'the same tree', i.e. it is a meaningless thing to say.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+1,747|5090|USA

Shahter wrote:

the question, which you obviously didn't read, was about senators arguing with small children.
What about it didn't I read? My question was why shouldn't they have face to face. I quite enjoyed my field trip to the state capital when I was in grade school. I still have one of the trinket pens with the governor's signature that they handed out to the children. Obviously a politician can use it as a photo op. Other than that I don't see it being much different than touring some other work environment or a professional making a guest presentation to a classroom and answering questions.

Granted it would have probably been a more practical visit for high schoolers, but how much of a stick in the mud do you have to be to just be all like "egh, for to be is waste of time."

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Anyway people on the right and in the mythical land of the center are complaining that the democrats are going too far advocating socialism. A lot the ideas sound silly and I don't think will work but I am willing to give them a try. As long as the Republicans advocate for low taxes and market regulation, the democrats can't possibly go too far left for me on economic issues.

In fact I don't want to hear a damn thing from a politician if they support Republican economic policy. I would sooner vote for a fat black tranny than a free market libertarian.
I've been seeing a bizarre ad hashtagged #justsaynotosocialism, like I'm back in the 80s watching a D.A.R.E. program, complete with over-the-top patriotic clippets and gruesome photos of non-Republicans. Like some satire of already too surreal American politics. I wonder if this is going to be the angle the next go-around, or if it's just some coincidental fringe piece that's been getting some weird playtime.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,965|3677|London, England

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Shahter wrote:

the question, which you obviously didn't read, was about senators arguing with small children.
What about it didn't I read? My question was why shouldn't they have face to face. I quite enjoyed my field trip to the state capital when I was in grade school. I still have one of the trinket pens with the governor's signature that they handed out to the children. Obviously a politician can use it as a photo op. Other than that I don't see it being much different than touring some other work environment or a professional making a guest presentation to a classroom and answering questions.

Granted it would have probably been a more practical visit for high schoolers, but how much of a stick in the mud do you have to be to just be all like "egh, for to be is waste of time."

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Anyway people on the right and in the mythical land of the center are complaining that the democrats are going too far advocating socialism. A lot the ideas sound silly and I don't think will work but I am willing to give them a try. As long as the Republicans advocate for low taxes and market regulation, the democrats can't possibly go too far left for me on economic issues.

In fact I don't want to hear a damn thing from a politician if they support Republican economic policy. I would sooner vote for a fat black tranny than a free market libertarian.
I've been seeing a bizarre ad hashtagged #justsaynotosocialism, like I'm back in the 80s watching a D.A.R.E. program, complete with over-the-top patriotic clippets and gruesome photos of non-Republicans. Like some satire of already too surreal American politics. I wonder if this is going to be the angle the next go-around, or if it's just some coincidental fringe piece that's been getting some weird playtime.
It's the mainstream if you read right-leaning news. It's Alexandria Occasio-Cortez all the time. She's replaced Pelosi as the bogeyman and the symbol for the Democrats. Every time she opens her mouth she spawns a hundred pieces about socialism and how radical and dangerous and mainstream she is among the left. Frankly, I have to say it's true too, because I saw multiple fawning articles about her yesterday and the speech she made at SXSW. She is extremely stupid and she's a threat because she's built herself a large following of romantic idealists looking for radical change. For the Republicans, she is a godsend because she rightfully scares the ever living shit out of both independents and conservatives. As long as the left wing media keeps pushing her to the fore they are going to guarantee Trump a second term.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Member
+195|2038
AOC is the result of Trump winning in the first place. The reason why socialism is becoming more popular is the failure of free market and capitalist advocates to find solutions to modern economic issues.

I am sure you will say something about the free market making the best outcomes which evern if true (which it very often isn't) the government needs to do something and be seen as active in the lives of the people. If the government isn't seen as being responsive to the needs of the people, people will find ideologies and movements outside of the mainstream as attractive. Whether that is fascism or socialism.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,965|3677|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

AOC is the result of Trump winning in the first place. The reason why socialism is becoming more popular is the failure of free market and capitalist advocates to find solutions to modern economic issues.

I am sure you will say something about the free market making the best outcomes which evern if true (which it very often isn't) the government needs to do something and be seen as active in the lives of the people. If the government isn't seen as being responsive to the needs of the people, people will find ideologies and movements outside of the mainstream as attractive. Whether that is fascism or socialism.
No, AOC is the result of Bernie Sanders.

Here is what capitalism is: specialization. You're a teacher, I'm an engineer, uzi is an editor, dilbert is a sheep shagger. We all have our own talents and our own occupations and when we need something that the other provides, we pay them. That's all capitalism is. The invisible hand is nothing more than the seemingly magical interaction between millions of people on a daily basis that makes the world work. You have an iphone but there's no one in the world that could build an iphone from scratch with all the innumerable inputs required to build it. No one person can drill the oil, pump it through a pipeline, refine it, turn it into plastic, build the trucks the plastic is shipped on, build the factory where the thermoplastic moulds are made etc. It's an incredibly complex process that requires each individual along the path to only understand a very narrow bit.

When people talk about free market capitalism, all they are saying is that this process should be left alone. When people talk about socialism they are talking about political control of the market, not the complete destruction of the market. Socialism has never been an economic system, it has always been a political one. Whether it's via dictating five-year plans or redistributing the profits, this is the assertion of political control, not the replacement of the market itself. It's simply about picking winners and losers based on whatever morality they hold.

Personally, I think a billion people making decisions, no matter how narrow, works out better than a handful of people in a room deciding for them.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+164|1771
editors and teachers existed before capitalism. maybe air conditioner unit installers didn’t but don’t lump us in with that. industrialism (and the explosion of technical and scientific knowledge behind it) led to increasing specialisation of job roles. that’s a very commonly repeated critique of early marx and engels and factory-line production. there were mercantile, medieval-guild and feudal arrangements before 'because capitalism' where people had their own job roles and artisan/craft/mason-like knowledge; capital had and has nothing to do with that.

more vocal left-wing hipsters in NYC who are rallying around their latest bright young thing does seem to be a pretty equal and opposite reaction to the rabid right-wing conspiracy-nut element that is festering under trump’s presidency. polarising times.

Last edited by uziq (2019-03-11 11:13:47)

SuperJail Warden
Member
+195|2038
I find it interesting that capitalism is just basic human interaction while also being deeply sophisticated and just too complex for anyone to try to regulate, figure out, or manage.

Like we have plenty of laws regarding sex (consent, time and place, age, safety etc.) but rules regarding how people can trade or interact economically is just wrong to get involved in because the free market or something.
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+711|5003|United States of America
I feel like among my generation, it's well overdue. Graduating HS in 2008, we saw what a fine mess the responsible adults got us into. The "free market above all" is how the rich fool suckers into handing over their money. It's the same reason why it's idiotic to think a rich person should be a leader because they can't be bought. People with money pretty much always want more money, and few have qualms if it's at the expensive of others.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,965|3677|London, England
I get the desire for safety and security, I do. Going off on your own and being an adult is a terrifying thing. You go from a world where you have a clearly defined path and a goal (school and graduation) out into a world where, because of freedom, there are so many millions of paths you can take and you never really know if you're on the right one. For a lot of people, this causes stress, anxiety and depression.

I was never one of those guys that knew when he was eight years old what he wanted to do in life. My path to my career was more a rollercoaster ride than a linear progression. I'm near 40 years old now and I'm just coming up with a long term game plan based on a goal. Until now I've kind of been winging it, reacting to stimuli rather than being proactive, and I've done ok. Two kids, a wife and a house and everyone is healthy and happy and my bills are paid. On paper my wife and I are doing really well, but in reality my bills crush me every month and the cost of living here makes it so I can never quite get ahead. Adulting is hard.

What scares me most is looking at our state and federal debt tick ever upward. Politicians, especially on the left, wave it off and say no big deal. Politicians on the right mouth the correct words, but then proceed to spend just as rapidly. What I see is crushing future taxes. I don't worry about the stock market. Yes, my 401k would be impacted, but the stock market always rebounds. What I worry about is sovereign default. I see trains to nowhere being funded and idiots in their 20s proposing legislation that would cost 93 trillion dollars. That's what worries me. 

The media likes to go on about how corporations are only out for short term gains and how they squander money and resources chasing quarterly gains in the stock market, and to a certain extent they are right. I fail to see how putting these corporations under political control would change anything when our own government behaves the same way when it comes to winning elections.

To make a long story short, I firmly believe that we can't depend on anyone but ourselves for our financial safety and security. As I said, no one is invested in us as much as we are ourselves. Clawing our way out of debt and building savings is the only way to make ourselves financially independent from our jobs and our government. Dependence simply inculcates fear because if the supports are ever ripped away you are screwed.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Member
+195|2038
All of this stuff about self reliance is fantastic sounding until you realize that in America your entire life can get ruined because of forces out of your control and there are few safe guards to protect you.

In America a guy can shot you from a hotel room and you then need to spend the rest of your life paying medical bills and physical therapy while being broke. Only in America do people beg for money on GoFundMe to pay medical cost.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,616|4425|eXtreme to the maX

SuperJail Warden wrote:

I find it interesting that capitalism is just basic human interaction while also being deeply sophisticated and just too complex for anyone to try to regulate, figure out, or manage.
Basic human interaction is more likely collectivist barter.
Your virus system is infected with windows. Please to be giving me your credit card details urgently
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,965|3677|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

All of this stuff about self reliance is fantastic sounding until you realize that in America your entire life can get ruined because of forces out of your control and there are few safe guards to protect you.

In America a guy can shot you from a hotel room and you then need to spend the rest of your life paying medical bills and physical therapy while being broke. Only in America do people beg for money on GoFundMe to pay medical cost.
There is always randomness in life. You could be diagnosed with cancer tomorrow. You could get hit by a car walking across the street. You can't risk assess your way through life or you'll be cowed by fear. The people trying to sell you socialism are the people that are preying on your fear of being lost in the world without guidance or protection. They are offering you the warm maternal embrace of a comforting parental figure while in reality all they really want to do is act as your personal shopper and run up your credit cards. Live within your means, save your money. This is the only way to gain the financial security you crave. It's by no means easy, but it really is the only way.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,616|4425|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

There is always randomness in life. You could be diagnosed with cancer tomorrow. You could get hit by a car walking across the street. You can't risk assess your way through life or you'll be cowed by fear. The people trying to sell you socialism are the people that are preying on your fear of being lost in the world without guidance or protection. They are offering you the warm maternal embrace of a comforting parental figure while in reality all they really want to do is act as your personal shopper and run up your credit cards. Live within your means, save your money. This is the only way to gain the financial security you crave. It's by no means easy, but it really is the only way.
A minimal safety net does make the world a better place, and its typically the right wing which runs up debts faster than the left to make themselves richer, not to improve the world for everyone.

Here we go again

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/liberapedia/images/7/7d/Fiscal-responsibility.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130204025146

Now Trump wants to run the largest deficit in history to give tax cuts to himself, soon interest payments will be the US govts largest single cost.

Good luck.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-03-12 05:05:49)

Your virus system is infected with windows. Please to be giving me your credit card details urgently
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+711|5003|United States of America
About that 93 trillion...

I'm not terribly surprised that old people I talk to don't give a fuck about the quality of life on earth in the coming decades since they won't be here, but it does surprise me that a lot of them have children and still don't bother. That's what gets my goat is the sort of short-termist thinking that allows people the "fuck you, got mine" viewpoint.

Cheeky edit: Obligatory disclaimer that branding any safety net for society socialism doesn't make it so.

Last edited by DesertFox- (2019-03-12 05:06:55)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,965|3677|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

There is always randomness in life. You could be diagnosed with cancer tomorrow. You could get hit by a car walking across the street. You can't risk assess your way through life or you'll be cowed by fear. The people trying to sell you socialism are the people that are preying on your fear of being lost in the world without guidance or protection. They are offering you the warm maternal embrace of a comforting parental figure while in reality all they really want to do is act as your personal shopper and run up your credit cards. Live within your means, save your money. This is the only way to gain the financial security you crave. It's by no means easy, but it really is the only way.
A minimal safety net does make the world a better place, and its typically the right wing which runs up debts faster than the left to make themselves richer, not to improve the world for everyone.
We have a minimal safety net in place already. We have unemployment insurance, health insurance for the poor and old, social security etc. The problem is they are attempting to expand it into a full blown welfare state with political direction of the economy as the cherry on top. What we already have is bankrupting us. What they are proposing would accelerate our future bankruptcy into the present.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

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