Pages: 1 … 154 155 156 157 158 … 363

 

2018-12-17 13:32:52
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6773|Moscow, Russia

Jay wrote:

What has lifted more people out of poverty in the past few hundred years than capitalism? Was it socialism? The answer is no. Trade, while not as free as it should be, has allowed more people access to affordable goods and services than could ever be attained under closed systems. You lament things like private property, but they are the primary driver behind this growth. If people can not enjoy the fruits of their labor they will not invest in them. If I knew that the government could seize my home tomorrow I would not invest in it today. I would be a fool to do so. This is why your society failed. There was no incentive for anyone to buy in and improve it because they had no ownership stake. Everything was dictated from on high by technocrats and individuals were completely helpless to improve their lot or exert any sort of control.

Marx was an idiot. Everyone that has ever followed his ideas has become more miserable, not less. It's a losers philosophy. All it does is allow for people to blame external forces for their lot in life while taking zero ownership. "I'm not making as much money as I feel I should be, I must be exploited in some way". Fuck off. Even total idiots can become comfortably wealthy in this system as long as they work their ass off and have the courage to go out on their own.
dude. i knew i could count on you to repeat every logical fallacy circulating out there about marxism and asinine "critique" its often subjected to by people, who haven't a slightest idea what it is about. let me explain some of that for you:

capitalism didn't lift anyone out of poverty - simply because it never had such goal. capitalism, in actuality, is a very simple thing, primitive even - it's only goal is profit, growth of the capital. therefore, it would just as readily cause poverty as fix it, if there was profit in that - and it did on innumerable occasions. technological progress - that's what uplifted us. and yes, capitalism was an instrument our civilization used to speed up technological advancement, that's true, but that historical mission is now complete. we have better instruments to guide us now than blind competition, trial and error and survival of the fittest capitalism relies on - soviet union and its huge scientific and technological success is proof of that.

as to marx and his philosophy - you are trying to assess merits of an idea using measurements and criteria it challenges in the first place. marxism does not operate with things like "wealth" and "profit" - it rejects the idea that workings of the capital produce any of that, and instead operates based on its own theory of value. which you'd know had you bothered to research the matter - but than again, we both know you didn't. you are tilting at windmills - again.

go read a book, that actually explains marxism, okay? not some bullshit by jordan peterson.

Last edited by Shahter (2018-12-17 14:29:24)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2018-12-17 16:50:03
coke
Aye up duck!
+440|6706|England. Stoke
"soviet union and its huge scientific and technological success is proof of that"

whilst leaving the vast majority of the population living most of the time in abject poverty "GrEaT SuCeSs!"

"go read a book, that actually explains marxism, okay? not some bullshit by jordan peterson."

Last edited by coke (2018-12-17 17:04:50)

2018-12-17 18:52:37
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6103|eXtreme to the maX
The ideals of Marxism are fine, the practice and human nature getting involved mean it doesn't really work.
The consequences have been fairly limited.

Capitalism on the other hand has raised people's standard of living but done more damage to the planet and caused more destructive wars than anything else.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2018-12-18 03:08:20
coke
Aye up duck!
+440|6706|England. Stoke

Dilbert_X wrote:

The ideals of Marxism are fine, the practice and human nature getting involved mean it doesn't really work.
The consequences have been fairly limited.
Millions of dead people might have disagreed with you on that one.
2018-12-18 04:02:55
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6103|eXtreme to the maX
I guess you're confusing Marxism and Stalinism.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2018-12-18 04:13:49
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5355|London, England

Shahter wrote:

Jay wrote:

What has lifted more people out of poverty in the past few hundred years than capitalism? Was it socialism? The answer is no. Trade, while not as free as it should be, has allowed more people access to affordable goods and services than could ever be attained under closed systems. You lament things like private property, but they are the primary driver behind this growth. If people can not enjoy the fruits of their labor they will not invest in them. If I knew that the government could seize my home tomorrow I would not invest in it today. I would be a fool to do so. This is why your society failed. There was no incentive for anyone to buy in and improve it because they had no ownership stake. Everything was dictated from on high by technocrats and individuals were completely helpless to improve their lot or exert any sort of control.

Marx was an idiot. Everyone that has ever followed his ideas has become more miserable, not less. It's a losers philosophy. All it does is allow for people to blame external forces for their lot in life while taking zero ownership. "I'm not making as much money as I feel I should be, I must be exploited in some way". Fuck off. Even total idiots can become comfortably wealthy in this system as long as they work their ass off and have the courage to go out on their own.
dude. i knew i could count on you to repeat every logical fallacy circulating out there about marxism and asinine "critique" its often subjected to by people, who haven't a slightest idea what it is about. let me explain some of that for you:

capitalism didn't lift anyone out of poverty - simply because it never had such goal. capitalism, in actuality, is a very simple thing, primitive even - it's only goal is profit, growth of the capital. therefore, it would just as readily cause poverty as fix it, if there was profit in that - and it did on innumerable occasions. technological progress - that's what uplifted us. and yes, capitalism was an instrument our civilization used to speed up technological advancement, that's true, but that historical mission is now complete. we have better instruments to guide us now than blind competition, trial and error and survival of the fittest capitalism relies on - soviet union and its huge scientific and technological success is proof of that.

as to marx and his philosophy - you are trying to assess merits of an idea using measurements and criteria it challenges in the first place. marxism does not operate with things like "wealth" and "profit" - it rejects the idea that workings of the capital produce any of that, and instead operates based on its own theory of value. which you'd know had you bothered to research the matter - but than again, we both know you didn't. you are tilting at windmills - again.

go read a book, that actually explains marxism, okay? not some bullshit by jordan peterson.
I feel sorry for you, I really do. You're one of those people who have wrapped themself in ideology and allowed their identity to be consumed by it. There's really no point in talking to you. Anything I say that could possibly open your eyes would be an assault on your identity and thus would allow you to play the victim in your own mind. I could point to the hundred million dead people in the past century that died of purges and famines and war caused by belief in Marxism and the scientific industrialism of Lenin and Stalin but it would be wasted on you. I could point out the overwhelming decrease in famine, disease, and poverty across the globe since globalization and free trade policies ascended. It's very easy to pick out the negatives associated with capitalism and to focus on them, but when you focus on them instead of the overwhelming positives it belies your own personal misery that you would project onto the world.

As for Soviet technological success, you couldn't even build a car that didn't fall apart. Sure, you launched rockets, rockets designed by German scientists, just like ours were. Most of your technology was stolen or copied, and done poorly. Your system could not and did not encourage creative thought, because creativity was a threat to the state. It could not and did not encourage efficiency, because efficiency was also a threat. The Soviet Union was an abomination from every standpoint.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2018-12-18 04:21:06
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6103|eXtreme to the maX

John Galt wrote:

You're one of those people who have wrapped themself in ideology and allowed their identity to be consumed by it. There's really no point in talking to you.
LOL OK

Congrats on the progress

https://wakingtimesmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/American-Obesity.jpg

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2018-12-18 04:38:13)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2018-12-18 04:45:33
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5355|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

John Galt wrote:

You're one of those people who have wrapped themself in ideology and allowed their identity to be consumed by it. There's really no point in talking to you.
LOL OK

Congrats on the progress

https://wakingtimesmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/American-Obesity.jpg
My politics are not my identity
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2018-12-18 04:54:21
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6103|eXtreme to the maX
They certainly used to be, they seem to be a bit fluid now, they'll crystallise soon enough - probably as an entitled conservative.
"Ah've payeed muh tuxes mah hool laff!"

I'm just waiting for it.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2018-12-18 05:31:41
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3717
Jay is one car burglary away from being a Trump supporter.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2018-12-18 05:50:35
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6773|Moscow, Russia

Jay wrote:

I feel sorry for you, I really do. You're one of those people who have wrapped themself in ideology and allowed their identity to be consumed by it. There's really no point in talking to you. Anything I say that could possibly open your eyes would be an assault on your identity and thus would allow you to play the victim in your own mind.
are you feeling okay there, man? what could my supposed "identity problems" have to do with factual and logical fallacies i pointed out in your post?

I could point to the hundred million dead people in the past century that died of purges and famines and war caused by belief in Marxism and the scientific industrialism of Lenin and Stalin
you could. if you could also provide something to substantiate the claims you made, we could've started talking.

I could point out the overwhelming decrease in famine, disease, and poverty across the globe since globalization and free trade policies ascended.
you could. if you could also make a comparison of how the same things happened under other regimes, we could have had an argument. but, alas, you can't, because you don't really know anything.

It's very easy to pick out the negatives associated with capitalism and to focus on them, but when you focus on them instead of the overwhelming positives it belies your own personal misery that you would project onto the world.
capitalism begins and ends with a huge and blatant injustice - it claims that it's okay for people who own means of production to appropriate the results of other people's labor based on those property rights. it's, basically, theft written into the law. if you are okay with that, fine, but i kinda think we should be trying to work out a better system, you know, regardless of what happened during last few hundred years. capitalism was useful, yes, but now, what, we owe somekinda loyalty to it or something? i bet when slavery of ancient times was being replaced by feudalism, the jays of the time were furious at a mere proposition that all humans are, basically, humans - not some kinda higher caste and beasts of burden. now, look how far we've come since.

As for Soviet technological success, you couldn't even build a car that didn't fall apart. Sure, you launched rockets, rockets designed by German scientists, just like ours were. Most of your technology was stolen or copied, and done poorly. Your system could not and did not encourage creative thought, because creativity was a threat to the state. It could not and did not encourage efficiency, because efficiency was also a threat. The Soviet Union was an abomination from every standpoint.
you have no idea what you are talking about. and, again, trying to assess merits of an idea using totally unsuitable criteria. the funny thing is, people who mismanaged soviet union and, ultimately, caused it to collapse, made exactly the same mistake. oh, well...
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2018-12-18 06:14:15
coke
Aye up duck!
+440|6706|England. Stoke

Shahter wrote:

As for Soviet technological success, you couldn't even build a car that didn't fall apart. Sure, you launched rockets, rockets designed by German scientists, just like ours were. Most of your technology was stolen or copied, and done poorly. Your system could not and did not encourage creative thought, because creativity was a threat to the state. It could not and did not encourage efficiency, because efficiency was also a threat. The Soviet Union was an abomination from every standpoint.
you have no idea what you are talking about. and, again, trying to assess merits of an idea using totally unsuitable criteria. the funny thing is, people who mismanaged soviet union and, ultimately, caused it to collapse, made exactly the same mistake. oh, well...
Care to enlighten us then with something resembling a counter point or are you gonna keep saying everyone else knows nothing whilst not actually saying anything yourself?
I'd like to know what scientific and technological successes you are referring to, and by what 'suitable criteria' you're assessing them?
2018-12-18 07:59:23
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6773|Moscow, Russia
scientific and technological successes i'm talking about:
basically, soviets got a wreck of a country in 1917 and managed to bring its industrial levels up to par with europe by the time nazies invaded in 1941. then they won the war against the combined industrial might of the better part of said europe (which was working for hitler at the time), then they managed to rebuild without any outside help (unlike said europe), and competed on par with "enlightened west" in, basically, every technological aspect right up until soviet union's collapse. education levels, medical care, social care - all of that they also managed to get up to level with the best of them.
and they did it all in the time frame never seen before or since.

as to suitable criteria... this is difficult, especially in a foreign language - marxism is generally a pretty complex theory, especially the hegelian logic of it. well, anyway:
what jays and the likes cannot wrap their minds about, is that marxist ideology sets totally different system of values and goals than those they had hammered into them by their propaganda machine, basically, from the cradle. marxism views humans as creative agents, realizing themselves through interaction with the world and each other, and labor - a process of altering the reality to suite one's needs and purposes - viewed as important part of that. as such, marxism postulates, it should not have to be used (or, indeed, exploited in others) by anybody for trivial things like accumulation of what jays out there call "wealth". that's why it's impossible to judge the system proposed by marx in terms like "wealth" and "profit" - simply because those are not its goals at all. commodity production under that system would only have one purpose - freeing as much as possible of every society member' life from the need to work for the living.
under capitalism poor jay is told, basically, that he has to spend half his life finding out what he's good at, and then spend the rest of it using that to accumulate as much stuff as he could.
for comparison, horrible dictator stalin not long before his death formulated a plan to shorten working hours to 5 a day. from his own words "to give every member of the society enough free time to get comprehensive education and become an active participant in societal development and cultural growth".

Last edited by Shahter (2018-12-18 08:31:32)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2018-12-18 09:06:07
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3717
In fairness to Shahtar, Cuba, Russia, and China did make vast development gains during their communist periods. Those countries were peasant backwaters before the communist who brought industrialization and education to the masses. The capitalist friendly leaders of those countries acted like feudal Lord's instead of national leaders. They all deserved to get overthrown and killed.

On the flip side, the communist were extremely oppressive. A tremendous amount of life was lost to get a that development. I wouldn't hold that above their heads though since many people in our country are just fine with the mass shootings and opioid epidemic if it means they get to keep their toys and don't have to pay a little more in taxes.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2018-12-18 09:10:05
coke
Aye up duck!
+440|6706|England. Stoke

Shahter wrote:

competed on par with "enlightened west" in, basically, every technological aspect right up until soviet union's collapse.
As said a lot of that tech was either copied/stolen or given (Nene jet engines being a prime example). Or particular in terms of electronics rather dated. Certainly some impressive engineering in play though I'll give you that.

horrible dictator stalin not long before his death formulated a plan to shorten working hours to 5 a day. from his own words "to give every member of the society enough free time to get comprehensive education and become an active participant in societal development and cultural growth"
And how did that work in practice?
2018-12-18 09:48:29
uziq
Member
+492|3449

coke wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

The ideals of Marxism are fine, the practice and human nature getting involved mean it doesn't really work.
The consequences have been fairly limited.
Millions of dead people might have disagreed with you on that one.
to be fair plenty millions have died because of capitalist or imperialist wars/regimes, too. not the best critique.
2018-12-18 10:49:58
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6773|Moscow, Russia

coke wrote:

Shahter wrote:

horrible dictator stalin not long before his death formulated a plan to shorten working hours to 5 a day. from his own words "to give every member of the society enough free time to get comprehensive education and become an active participant in societal development and cultural growth"
And how did that work in practice?
it didn't have a chance to. stalin died, power struggle that ensued resulted in khruschev and his crew getting the upper hand. those were the jay-like power-hungry dipshits i posted about before, who didn't have any clear idea how to mange a system like soviet union, and brezhnev and his clowns who came next were even worse. the rest, as they say, is history.

Last edited by Shahter (2018-12-18 11:02:48)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2018-12-18 12:06:13
coke
Aye up duck!
+440|6706|England. Stoke

uziq wrote:

coke wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

The ideals of Marxism are fine, the practice and human nature getting involved mean it doesn't really work.
The consequences have been fairly limited.
Millions of dead people might have disagreed with you on that one.
to be fair plenty millions have died because of capitalist or imperialist wars/regimes, too. not the best critique.
It was aimed more at the fairly limited consequences.
2018-12-18 14:31:02
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6103|eXtreme to the maX
The purges were not a consequence of Marxism, they were part of Stalinism.

Compared with permanently altering and poisoning the environment -which is a consequence of unrestrained capitalism - they're relatively trivial, spanish flu killed 50-100 times more people than Stalin did.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2018-12-21 08:53:31
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3717
America is kinda fucked right now. Moreso than usual.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2018-12-27 01:27:09
uziq
Member
+492|3449
2018-12-27 14:20:44
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3717
The U.S. economy is either in or about to be in a recession now. The stock market had its worst Christmas eve since the Great Depression. Then it shot up 1000 points. Now it is down 700. The market was doing this same exact thing in September 2008 when the Great Recession happened.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2018-12-27 14:46:21
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6103|eXtreme to the maX
2008 wasn't a 'great recession', it was a financial collapse unrelated to the real economy.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Trump is manipulating the market and has some bond trader in his pocket who is making a killing on his behalf.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
2018-12-27 18:13:16
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6629|949

it's almost as if there is a reason for the recent economic instability and uncertainty. 

Perhaps it's related to our governments cohesive and all-encompassing economic policy that totally isn't based on how some early-stage alzhiemers old fart feels when he wakes up that day. 

Perhaps it has something to do with a failed businessman making economic policy decisions.

Maybe it's related to important economic advisors coming out unprompted that, "dude, our financial institutions are totally solvent and fine and you have no reason to worry about anything. Wait, you weren't worried? Well you definitely shouldn't be worried, thanks!"
2018-12-27 18:27:05
coke
Aye up duck!
+440|6706|England. Stoke
Cue Shahter...

 

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