uziq
Member
+492|3423

coke wrote:

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:


mainstream democrats identify as ‘the left’? really? last i checked the sanders/ocasio-cortez axis were identifying as ‘democratic socialists’, which is basically the furthest right you can get and still be ‘the Left’.

in these trying times i think a little bit of accuracy and care to language would go a long way. everyone is suffering from hysteria and semantic hyperinflation. ‘the Left’ are not a threat to anything in american politics.

and doesn’t just about every piece of climate change research state that the changes are completely man-made?
Yes, the arguments are now about which model shows the correct rate of increase and whether adaptation is preferable to prevention. I think prevention is a nonsensical pipe dream. Game theory says we're fucked if we rely on it.

Interestingly, they're now saying we've staved off an ice age by warming the planet. I'd call that a win.
You really do get thicker year on year.
It's like you are the literal embodiment of "a little learning is a dangerous thing".
what’s worse is you know he thinks he’s being supremely smart and sophisticated by making recourse to game theory.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

Yes, the arguments are now about which model shows the correct rate of increase and whether adaptation is preferable to prevention. I think prevention is a nonsensical pipe dream. Game theory says we're fucked if we rely on it.
How on earth does game theory say that?
Good luck adapting to being waist deep in water.
https://i.imgur.com/iNafYgu.png
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

coke wrote:

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:


mainstream democrats identify as ‘the left’? really? last i checked the sanders/ocasio-cortez axis were identifying as ‘democratic socialists’, which is basically the furthest right you can get and still be ‘the Left’.

in these trying times i think a little bit of accuracy and care to language would go a long way. everyone is suffering from hysteria and semantic hyperinflation. ‘the Left’ are not a threat to anything in american politics.

and doesn’t just about every piece of climate change research state that the changes are completely man-made?
Yes, the arguments are now about which model shows the correct rate of increase and whether adaptation is preferable to prevention. I think prevention is a nonsensical pipe dream. Game theory says we're fucked if we rely on it.

Interestingly, they're now saying we've staved off an ice age by warming the planet. I'd call that a win.
You really do get thicker year on year.
It's like you are the literal embodiment of "a little learning is a dangerous thing".
Everything you buy has to be made somewhere. Europe can de-industrialize all they want but the goods they want still have to be produced in a factory somewhere. Whether it's in China or India or South Korea or Thailand or Africa, it's gotta be made. All of those goods require power in order to be produced. Power production produces greenhouse gases. So unless you're willing to severely curtail your own lifestyle, which most people are not, the problem doesn't go away, it just moves out of direct view.

Countries patting themselves on the back for reducing carbon emissions just means that either they found a cleaner fuel source, like the US, or they severely fucked over their own local economy and shed a ton of jobs because of environmental regulations. As an example, Germany has seen its coal use skyrocket since they panicked and pledged to shut down their nuclear plants after Fukushima. They're now gutting their auto industry with bans on diesel engines. Sure, they have a lot of solar power, but they overproduce to the point that they can't sell it all for the few hours it's in peak.

Climate change will not be a sudden occurrence. It will happen gradually over decades and centuries. We'll have time to adapt, it's amazing what engineering can accomplish. Is it ideal? No, but I'm not an idealist. I recognize that humans are by nature selfish and jealous and won't sacrifice for a greater good unless held at gunpoint. Other countries will take your factories and your jobs and won't have the technology or desire to reduce emissions. Climate change is going to happen no matter how many Paris Accords are reached or cans you recycle.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

saw a WW2 historian give a talk where be argued that we shouldn't call Trump and his admin Nazis or fascist.  He said fascism was a movement unique to the early 20th century as a result of a few specific circumstances. I am following that idea from now on.
Sure, the language isn't always helpful but at the same time it's hard to avoid pointing out similarities.

Granted, decay has been going on for much longer. For example, I think Reagan's repeal of the Fairness Doctrine was a significant factor in polarizing media for the right-wing talk radio era to follow. We were exposed to a nearly daily voice in the background telling us who we should hate and resent. People drove commutes with this insidious language worming its way to the backs of their minds. Dinner conversation began to feature increasingly vitriolic rants about the subhuman liberals who were out to get everyone, to such an emotionally charged degree that brooked no differing opinion on pain of family-sundering argumentation. Racist talk and bald-faced bigotry experienced a bit of a renaissance as a household feature where I did not see them blatantly displayed before.

It would be hard to not be swept into at least some of it as a young kid, especially when your immediate family bought into it. It feels awful, and completely extricating yourself takes hard work. Some of my family haven't recovered, though to be fair older gg/boomer prejudices were undoubtedly a (reinforced) contributing factor.

So sure, it's an anecdotal bone to pick. But what I see in Trump's language and his base is just more poisonous bullshit like this, and I resent the hell out of it.
I think it had more to do with the creation of CNN and the 24 hour news cycle. They need to be entertaining to keep eyeballs. Since they can't depend on school shootings or kidnappings of little white girls to keep people entertained, they turned to politics, the more extreme the better. Every news channel is now a political version of Jerry Springer.

Read this crap: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://li … ahHh8efMIQ
This is from the mind of someone that acts like a deranged sports fan, whose mood and mental health is dependent on whether their sports team won or lost. She's simply substituted politics for sports.

Last edited by Jay (2018-10-16 04:07:22)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

Everything you buy has to be made somewhere. Europe can de-industrialize all they want but the goods they want still have to be produced in a factory somewhere. Whether it's in China or India or South Korea or Thailand or Africa, it's gotta be made. All of those goods require power in order to be produced. Power production produces greenhouse gases. So unless you're willing to severely curtail your own lifestyle, which most people are not, the problem doesn't go away, it just moves out of direct view.

Countries patting themselves on the back for reducing carbon emissions just means that either they found a cleaner fuel source, like the US, or they severely fucked over their own local economy and shed a ton of jobs because of environmental regulations. As an example, Germany has seen its coal use skyrocket since they panicked and pledged to shut down their nuclear plants after Fukushima. They're now gutting their auto industry with bans on diesel engines. Sure, they have a lot of solar power, but they overproduce to the point that they can't sell it all for the few hours it's in peak.

Climate change will not be a sudden occurrence. It will happen gradually over decades and centuries. We'll have time to adapt, it's amazing what engineering can accomplish. Is it ideal? No, but I'm not an idealist. I recognize that humans are by nature selfish and jealous and won't sacrifice for a greater good unless held at gunpoint. Other countries will take your factories and your jobs and won't have the technology or desire to reduce emissions. Climate change is going to happen no matter how many Paris Accords are reached or cans you recycle.
Decades or centuries are absolutely not enough time to adapt, good luck with seeing Florida and the Eastern Seaboard cease to exist, and all the lost equity which would go with that over say 50 years. The rest of the world would see migration of hundreds of millions if not billions of people, there would be mass starvation and war.

US Industry is very inefficient, and the US has a very high level of personal consumption of goods, this does account for a lot of carbon use, elsewhere people consume less and industry is more efficient - so in some senses it does make sense to offshore.
In a carbon-based world-economy cheaper does directly translate to less carbon impact. Asian industry is more efficient, Asian employees are paid less and in turn consume less, they aren't eating 1kg steaks, tooling around in F250s and demanding the salaries to fund it. Thinking about that I am glad America has lost the bulk of its industry.

Climate change needn't happen at all, but people would have to find efficiencies and curtail their grossly profligate and wasteful lifestyles, far more so in Western countries.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2018-10-16 04:41:34)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:

why do people think the media and hillary supporters are 'the left'.  very puzzling.

is this also the same interview where trump said that climate change will reverse itself and return to normal?
He said something like "We can't know if we're wholly to blame or if it would've happened without us"

And they self identify as "the left".
Its funny how people whine on about 'the left' and identify them as socialists (which is the same as communists, obviously) but won't describe 'the right' as anything other than 'conservative' when they are practically fascists.

The 'conservatives' have been playing this game of pulling out bogeymen to shake since about forever, now its 'the left' before that muslims, communists etc. and morons lap it up unthinkingly.

That and pulling out and latching onto unsupported or invented factoids.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3690
You have to be either rich or a dumbass to support the GOP today. The party only cares about making the wealthy richer everything else is superfluous. They bring out trannies, BLM, and other inconsequential stuff to scare middle class and poor people into cutting their economic throats.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

You have to be either rich or a dumbass to support the GOP today. The party only cares about making the wealthy richer everything else is superfluous. They bring out trannies, BLM, and other inconsequential stuff to scare middle class and poor people into cutting their economic throats.
You're a dummy. We have full employment right now.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+492|3423
and what sort of jobs? sorry but forcing people into the precariat, making them work more for less, making them work two jobs for a living wage, redefining ‘being in employment’ as 12 hours a week or whatever — these are not signs of a healthy economy and labor market.

Last edited by uziq (2018-10-16 07:27:13)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3690

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

You have to be either rich or a dumbass to support the GOP today. The party only cares about making the wealthy richer everything else is superfluous. They bring out trannies, BLM, and other inconsequential stuff to scare middle class and poor people into cutting their economic throats.
You're a dummy. We have full employment right now.
The jobs are shit. My school employs a ton of aides on per diem. They technically have jobs but they don't get healthcare, vacation days, sick days or anything else but they are employed. It is like this all over and only going to get worse.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3690
I watched a late 50 year old special education aide cry the other day because of healthcare provider problems. She worked for the school for 20 years but didn't get healthcare benefits since she was technically a contractor. She has a job though so she should just suck it is because we are at "full employment" if you don't count the people who gave up on working or are underemployed.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

I watched a late 50 year old special education aide cry the other day because of healthcare provider problems. She worked for the school for 20 years but didn't get healthcare benefits since she was technically a contractor. She has a job though so she should just suck it is because we are at "full employment" if you don't count the people who gave up on working or are underemployed.
You live in a state controlled by Democrats. Sounds like a local issue.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+492|3423
that’s the norm in most western countries post-2008 crash. the ‘recovery’ was a bailout of the financial elites and an erosion of decent jobs/security/prosperity. the figures are getting better on paper but everyone is worse off in practical terms. living costs are high, earnings are weak, benefit packages are eroded.

enter the term precariat.

Last edited by uziq (2018-10-16 08:32:42)

SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3690
On Monday night, President Donald Trump's 2020 re-election campaign announced that it had raised in excess of $18 million over the past three months, a haul that means the incumbent has already raised $106 million for a race that is more than two years away.

That's a stunning -- and totally unprecedented -- amount of money for a sitting president to have collected less than two years into his first term.
Can you imagine being so dumb that you spend your money protecting a guy who doesn't give a shit about you?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
coke
Aye up duck!
+440|6679|England. Stoke
"so climate change serious business right?"

Jay: "Yeah but I read a blog about game theory"

And the whole fucking point is that generating power does not HAVE to generate greenhouse gasses...

Last edited by coke (2018-10-16 10:13:04)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

coke wrote:

"so climate change serious business right?"

Jay: "Yeah but I read a blog about game theory"

And the whole fucking point is that generating power does not HAVE to generate greenhouse gasses...
No? It's efficient and cost effective to do it any other way besides nuclear?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+492|3423
> talks about how 'cost effective' alternatives to fossil fuels are
> climate change and global warming are going to be low cost bargains that's for sure
> i'm dedddd

which game theorist are you reading at the moment, jay? selten? maynard smith?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England
Buchanan
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England
Not that it really matters, but I've referenced game theory on this subject many times
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6742|PNW

Jay wrote:

I think it had more to do with the creation of CNN and the 24 hour news cycle. They need to be entertaining to keep eyeballs. Since they can't depend on school shootings or kidnappings of little white girls to keep people entertained, they turned to politics, the more extreme the better. Every news channel is now a political version of Jerry Springer.

Read this crap: https://www.google.com/url?q=https://li … ahHh8efMIQ
This is from the mind of someone that acts like a deranged sports fan, whose mood and mental health is dependent on whether their sports team won or lost. She's simply substituted politics for sports.
I was speaking of my own experiences during the growth of conservative talk radio, which the repeal is often credited for ushering in, and its observed impact on my family, which I'll note far surpassed that of news programs beforehand. I've also been met with hostility and scorn for making that observation. At times it's been so startlingly explosive that it's like they're responding to a physical threat. At one point I was sure I was about to be disinherited before things cooled down.

As for the lithub link, I don't really see your sports parallel. Just another depressing string of stories about how malicious language, propaganda, and hate speech affect private lives. There's a lot of room for reading between the lines, and a ton of assumptions I could unsafely make. The weird hallway confrontation about "you women with your thises and thatses." The bizarre torching of shirts and Hillary buttons. Not really sure how I'm supposed to respond. Maybe the men felt like they were constantly under a baleful spotlight, so left. Maybe not.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6602|949

its weird to me that you like to reference game theory to talk about climate change while also admitting that people don't act rationally unless a gun is in their face.

Also, i've personally audited two factories that were powered by 100% renewable energy. One was a garment factory in Sri Lanka, producing goods for a large international lifestyle company.  One was an electronics factory in Mexico owned and operated by a Fortune 50 company.  The manufacturing industry has already made a push towards renewables, like many other industries, but apparently you didn't get that memo.
coke
Aye up duck!
+440|6679|England. Stoke

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

its weird to me that you like to reference game theory to talk about climate change while also admitting that people don't act rationally unless a gun is in their face.

Also, i've personally audited two factories that were powered by 100% renewable energy. One was a garment factory in Sri Lanka, producing goods for a large international lifestyle company.  One was an electronics factory in Mexico owned and operated by a Fortune 50 company.  The manufacturing industry has already made a push towards renewables, like many other industries, but apparently you didn't get that memo.
Yeah but he's read about game theory!1!!1!
coke
Aye up duck!
+440|6679|England. Stoke

Jay wrote:

Not that it really matters, but I've referenced game theory on this subject many times
Yeah it doesn't really matter, because it's fucking retarded doing so.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3690
Have you guys ever heard of the prisoners dilemma?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6602|949

that's the one where the experiment was cancelled because the guards started abusing the inmates.  Power corrupts, bro!

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