Where are all the whiny peaceful "Enlightened" European now?

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Where are all the whiny peaceful "Enlightened" European now?

2022-04-05 13:56:20

#2126

SuperJail Warden: Gone Forever; +641|3957

Larssen wrote:
I have to say that all the disdain particularly from anglo-saxon governments over all the purported russian war crimes leaves me very pessimistic about some things.

Of course any war crime is terrible, by now there's plenty video evidence of some beyond shocking stuff. Yet it's as though the governments most front and center in the accusations are suffering from complete and total amnesia over their own very recent warfaring conduct. How many civilians were wantonly murdered in the thousands of air and drone strikes? What about beyond gruesome stories like the Mahmudiyah rape and killings? Yes, the perpetrators in this case eventually court-martialed, but I doubt anyone here will have recollection of those events.

In any case, I'm specifically talking about the US government most of all. Suddenly it loves to pontificate about international norms and rules, and the state department released a formal accusation of criminal conduct to Russia with the insistence that they will pursue accountability 'using every tool available including criminal prosections'. That it will share info with international organisations as appropriate.

The US doesn't even recognise the legitimacy of the International Criminal Court and in the past State released extremely combative statements in terms of what would happen if an American might ever be indicted there. The boundless (and imo disgusting) hypocrisy can't escape anyone here.

It's also indicative of the US's personality disorder in any case. Once a republican president enters the stage, this will suddenly be forgotten again.

Hmm. Cuck!

You would need to go back to Vietnam to find anything like the massacres that took place in Ukraine.

2022-04-05 14:05:24

#2127

Larssen: Member; +99|2125

If it is to be a pissing contest your totals are probably and regrettably still much higher if only because of the fact that the US spent some 20 years airstriking the crap out of Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Some strikes on weddings, and even an entire doctors without borders hospital encampment that was erased by an AC gunship.

In most cases the US government reaction rarely amounted to more than 'oops' and 'here's some money now stop talking about it pls'.

2022-04-05 14:39:26

#2128

uziq: Member; +495|3690

ok macbeth. did you forget wikileaks? Abu ghraib? the whole world saw helicopter footage of american soldiers blowing innocent journalists to pieces. then laughing about it … and lighting up the civilian van that had come to carry away the wounded.

your response? pursuing people like assange and bradley manning to the ends of the earth for 15 years. remind me of the american public’s feelings about these people, again?

there is something slightly insane about biden talking about war crimes whilst formally undermining the ICC; and about boris johnson et al. ‘addressing russian soldiers’ directly and asking them to effectively betray their state or state secrets … when our own intelligence and security services have just made life a living hell for western whistleblowers for the last two decades.

it’s not hard to see how russians are snookered by the same depressing cognitive blindspots.

the exact same massacres happened in yugoslavia whilst the western world/allies watched, mostly with an eye on their own advantage. the truly depressing thing is that we have to stand and watch this stuff repeat itself, time and time again, and no amount of triumphalism about ‘the end of history’ or ‘we’re better than that’ seems to wish it away.

Last edited by uziq (2022-04-05 14:42:10)

2022-04-05 14:50:15

#2129

SuperJail Warden: Gone Forever; +641|3957

Bringing up the Middle East, whatever happened there, is only providing cover for Russia and their sympathizers at this moment. It is also identity politics. Americans can't talk about Ukraine because our government did some stuff? We can't talk about Ukraine without also kneeling for the indigenous people of the Middle East? Ukrainian Lives Matter.

2022-04-05 14:59:03

#2130

uziq: Member; +495|3690

there’s a time for moral outrage and there’s a time for level-headed analysis. you can be both disgusted at the events that are unfolding and have more than a gnat’s awareness of the very recent past. this shouldn’t be too complicated.

agree that in the comment sections of newspapers and in online discourse (Tm) that there’s way too many shills and creeps who engage in professional whatabouttery in an effort to effectively give russia/china/india/NK/etc. carte blanche to do whatever the fuck they want. it’s unhelpful, agree, if not outwardly giving help to their regimes as part of coordinated propaganda.

but still. if biden and the world’s powers want to stress the importance of international norms and the rule of law, it would be good if they subscribed to it themselves. ‘good’ as in a net plus for all of humanity levels of good.

watching the great western powers rehearse their rhetoric about being appalled must be similar to how these tiny pacific island states or zero-carbon african nations feel when they watch the international climate change get togethers. a bunch of giant players busily importing and exporting fossil fuels and building 100s of new fossil fuel power stations whilst lecturing piously on ‘the global state of affairs’.

Last edited by uziq (2022-04-05 15:00:02)

2022-04-05 15:03:29

#2131

Larssen: Member; +99|2125

I was specific in my wording: the US government. It's almost schizoid in its behaviour.

It's not even just the acknowledgment of war crimes that ticks me off, it's that it is very obviously used to try and gain political capital, either at home or with allies. The fact that only a few years ago a recent president absolutely trampled on the notion of international norms and rules, another illegally invaded a country and approved countless war crimes, and yet others continued policies that sustained and covered for this..

Focus on Ukraine and the evil Russians now! And above all, look to us, America, to lead the charge for righteous justice.

Yeah right. Acknowledge the legitimacy of the ICC first.

2022-04-05 15:07:12

#2132

uziq: Member; +495|3690

henry kissinger is still being fed 1,000 souls a day to sustain his enthroned immortality. but putin is a war criminal and should be sent to the hague!

2022-04-05 15:20:16

#2133

Larssen: Member; +99|2125

The only glimmering hope for the future here is that almost every military intervention since the 1990s that wasn't a limited UN peacekeeping operation has been an unmitigated disaster.

Meaning that militaries are racking up horrendously bad track records in our recent history. They're really not that good of a tool for delivering on political strategic objectives anymore, and Putin is finding that out as we're going. Should've stuck to his proxy wars and limited land grabs.

2022-04-05 15:34:07

#2134

KEN-JENNINGS: I am all that is MOD!; +2,979|6870|949

Western governments are hypocrites on the world stage.

The sky is blue

Water is wet

Judas grabbed the Romans while Jesus slept

2022-04-05 15:50:47

#2135

unnamednewbie13: Moderator; +2,053|7010|PNW

At least the US "apologized"_{https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15HTd4Um1m4} for some of its killings (recently admitting error on the drone strike that killed 10 civilians on the tail end of Afghanistan), sometimes after whoever's president brags about them.

Russia says they're staged by Ukraine, in what must be a very widespread Ukrainian conspiracy if nobody's talked yet.

2022-04-05 17:10:13

#2136

uziq: Member; +495|3690

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Western governments are hypocrites on the world stage.

The sky is blue

Water is wet

Judas grabbed the Romans while Jesus slept

if it’s so obvious, why are we inept at dealing with china and russia when they use said hypocrisy as an alibi?

2022-04-05 18:07:04

#2137

SuperJail Warden: Gone Forever; +641|3957

It is amazing how some of you have already started to sympathize with the enemy.

2022-04-05 19:46:09

#2138

uziq: Member; +495|3690

certainly never sympathized with the aims or policies of the CCP or putin's russia. quite happy to see them as 'the enemy', even in your trollsome tone. but you don't need to be a mearsheimer-school sage to see that this type of great powers realism is wholly unsurprising, after decades of US hegemony and its flouting of international rules.

2022-04-05 20:03:31

#2139

SuperJail Warden: Gone Forever; +641|3957

I am certainly not a "kill them all" bf2s conservative from 2007. I acknowledge we have done some awful geopolitical things. But we live in a system that allows us to critically reexamine our prior actions even if the denunciations 25 years later don't bring the dead back to life. There is no such practice in modern China or Russia. That said, a whole host of nations lack through law or practice the public introspection of prior actions. Perhaps it is only the west who takes part in this sort of higher order thinking which is probably doesn't fit the narrative of people who feel now is the time to denounce the Iraq War.

https://y.yarn.co/3b733c5c-fcac-4efa-b6cb-1ed5bf503efe_text.gif

2022-04-05 20:14:40

#2140

uziq: Member; +495|3690

do you think america has reckoned with its rule-breaking of even one-generation ago? i really don't think so.

larssen is onto something when he describes your bipartisan political culture as 'schizoid'. there are obama-era white house staffers now discussing the unionisation debate and the need for action. when half a decade ago they were the ones shooting down such proposals. similarly, obama-era liberals are hardly penitent about his drone-strike doctrine or foreign policy blunders.

it's a matter of degree rather than kind tbh. look at how people like jay responded to that project about african-american slavery or whatever. look at the debates going on in american schooling today, banning certain types of historical enquiry and 'CRT'. is russia and china's approach to their history REALLY that different? there's an unwarranted note of self-congratulation in the way you discuss this stuff.

how many american schools are teaching abu ghraib?

Perhaps it is only the west who takes part in this sort of higher order thinking

considering that western historiography and the western/occidental view of the world has occupied the mainstream for so long, particularly the anglophone version of events, it's entirely appropriate that now the 'confused liberals' are starting to think about framing periods such as, say, european colonialization or empire-building, through 'decentered' narratives or from peripheral positions.

Last edited by uziq (2022-04-05 20:17:04)

2022-04-05 20:44:03

#2141

unnamednewbie13: Moderator; +2,053|7010|PNW

It's incredibly disheartening to hear a history teacher go on here in horribly dumbed-down terms of "y'all are sympathizing with the enemy," when this discussion has happened multiple times and several of us have clearly explained ourselves on the matter.

2022-04-05 21:19:54

#2142

uziq: Member; +495|3690

also we're hardly floating seditious arguments in a public forum, or diluting the quality of public opinion. we're expressing misgivings and thoughts to one another on a functionally private, dead forum. it would be a different matter if someone was going on CNN right now to opine like this in the face of a clear war crime.

2022-04-06 02:44:11

#2143

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6344|eXtreme to the maX

Larssen wrote:
I was specific in my wording: the US government. It's almost schizoid in its behaviour.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/010/692/19789999.jpg

Bush, Blair, Howard - All war criminals.
There was no legitimate reason to invade Iraq, depose and kill Saddam, kill thousands of Iraqis, scatter DU munitions all of the place, terrorise the Afghan population for 20 years.

If they're not then Putin has the right to invade Ukraine, string up Zelensky and rampage around the countryside killing people for a couple of decades or until they give up their neo-nazi bio-labs.

The US jumping up and down about war crimes now - not sure what the right word is.

China, India, various ME countries and especially Israel staying silent is much more concerning TBH. These people can see war crimes happening and don't care - or really put their self-interest, which in most cases is their plans for invasions and genocides, first.

Fuck Israel

2022-04-06 03:14:39

#2144

uziq: Member; +495|3690

lmao how fucking nuts do you have to be to consider israel's neutrality more worrying than china's, or even india's

you are one cooked baked potato, my guy.

2022-04-06 03:38:10

#2145

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6344|eXtreme to the maX

Israel is a nation of inbred nuclear-armed armageddonists which threatened the Samson option decades ago.

Fuck Israel

2022-04-06 04:06:35

#2146

uziq: Member; +495|3690

china and india are nuclear-armed too you fucking dingbat. to claim that israel's neutrality is the most worrying thing about this new multipolar world is seriously lol. you need to get your fucking head checked. especially if you think israel's religious fanaticism is any different to india/pakistan's, or their nationalistic fervouur is any worse than the CCP's.

you are seriously one of the weirdest anti-semites i've ever met. it's oddly fascinating seeing this irrational fear/phobia/hatred play out in real time. i thought it was just a caricatured position, but no. people like you really do think the jews are behind everything or are the biggest threat to the planet. world armageddon isn't going to happen because of the left bank, my guy.

2022-04-06 04:09:06

#2147

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6344|eXtreme to the maX

People are scared that Putin is nuclear armed and living in a fantasy world, Israelis have been living in fantasy world for the last 4000 years.

Fuck Israel

2022-04-06 04:25:39

#2148

uziq: Member; +495|3690

you have a formidable grasp of history.

nobody is claiming israel is 4000 years not, not even jewish historians. that's as old as ancient sumer. yeah ... no. 3000 ish years, at a very generous stretch.

south korea isn't in south-east asia and 700-1000 years is more than a rounding error in history. it's like confusing modern britain with the norman conquest.

the fantasies and ambitions of zionism are as old as putin's ideology, which is to say it's as old as imperial russia. indeed, they are quite intimately entwined, especially with the fate of eastern europe's jews, the shtetl settlements, the russian pogroms, etc.

Last edited by uziq (2022-04-06 04:30:06)

2022-04-06 06:49:03

#2149

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,815|6344|eXtreme to the maX

Israel’s government has been thrown into disarray after its chairwoman resigned, leaving it without a majority and raising the possibility of a fifth national election in little more than three years.

The 41-year-old’s resignation followed her call for the health minister Nitzan Horowitz, the leader of the left-wing Meretz party, to be sacked over his decision to allow bread to be brought into hospitals over Passover. The consumption of such products during the religious festival is prohibited by Jewish law.

Speaking after her shock resignation, Ms Silman, who is an Orthodox Jew, said she wanted to preserve the “Jewish identity of the State of Israel”, adding her opinion that “the time has come to form a national, Jewish and Zionist government”.

These people are fruitcakes and they have nuclear weapons.

Fuck Israel

2022-04-06 08:14:41

#2150

uziq: Member; +495|3690

you are a fruitcake. the US has zanier religious nuts in office.

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Larssen wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Larssen wrote:

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