BF2S Forums Where are all the whiny peaceful "Enlightened" European now?

I did a bit of Russian at school, its a fun language, and would like to visit Moscow and St Petersburg - the Trans Siberian Rail trip would be awesome.
If i ever have two cats I plan to name them Baikonur and Cosmodrome.
I'd like to keep my kidneys, also don't want to be harassed by loose women, so I dunno.

Looking back NATO was foolish to antagonise Putin, its not as if he didn't give a decade of warning. Also they should have known he was irrational and belligerent and acted accordingly.
There's actually bugger all benefit to NATO in having the Baltics in, only liability, and its provocative.
It would have been quite easy to agree that Ukraine wouldn't join NATO and NATO forces wouldn't be stationed there, and again no benefit to NATO in a long range missile fight.
Stationing anti-ICBMs in the area, supposedly to counter Iran and North Korea, without discussion was foolish.
Whether that would have pushed the problem down the road, hopefully after Putin is a head in a jar, or emboldened him I guess its impossible to say.

At this point Ukraine might as well give up the two breakaway republics, maybe Crimea and maybe the swathe in between, let the Russians rebuild Mariupol but keep Odessa. That seems to be what the Russians want and would let them save face.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (3 years ago)

I got this from a conservative recently. "Well, NATO didn't exactly work with Putin on Ukraine." Er, ok.

It seems to be a run of the mill thing. One side does something horrible because the other side wouldn't "work with them." This comes up a lot when blaming a laundry list of things for Nazi Germany, except for Nazi Germany itself. Or another example, the Jan 6 people had "legitimate concerns" about the validity of the election, but "the Democrats wouldn't work with us" (they did). It's so exhausting.

from two days ago:

The Trailer: Decertify the 2020 election? In Wisconsin, it may be on the ballot
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics … ar-AAV6FR2

It never ends.

uziq wrote:

how does NATO reckon or treat with a deluded autocrat who thinks his nation’s failing response to covid is the fault of a nazi neighbouring state?

At least he's not blaming the jews, this has to be a first.

I think Putin enjoyed a "recalcitrant" NATO. He's used it in a number of speaking points. "I even talked about joining but Bill Clinton was evasive on the topic!"

I heard a good explanation of the situation regarding Putin's psychology from a National Review author of all people "Putin looks at Ukraine the same way Lincoln looked at the Confederacy". No matter what we would have done, the Russians would desire to have Ukraine, Belarus, and the Baltic back into their federation.

https://www.ft.com/content/503fb110-f91 … 09582dd007

Putin's war is an angry lashing out against a world that is changing in ways he cannot accept. His mind is still firmly rooted in a cold war logic of 'great power' competition - the rest of the peoples between him and the united states seen as mere tools to further global hegemonies. He'll find likemindedness on the other end of the atlantic in fools like John Bolton. I also see a lot of people now quoting dinosaurs like Mearsheimer and Kissinger as these wise old men who truly understand international relations and who saw it coming. If only we/the ukrainians heeded their warnings!

Putin, in his outdated mindset, has found himself in a world that is diverging from his preferred perception of reality, and he's trying to hit the reset button through brute force. It's all about him vs the west. Not just in perceived physical threats like the expansion of NATO that he keeps harping on about. But importantly in ideas and cultural influence. Look at one of the chief Russian negotiators in the peace summits as an example: Vladimir Medinsky. A venomous little charlatan who's stint as Russia's minister of culture was hallmarked by a push for 'traditionalist values' such as a crackdown on gay people, a 'rejection of multiculturalism' and an embracing of more xenophobic attitudes.

It's the usual fanfare of nationalism, 'traditionalism' and cultural conservatism that we're all familiar with now - and who's adherents seem to be in a state of angry crisis all over the globe. Here personified in Putin and his clique, who received international adoration from the likes of Le Pen and Trump. Versus a globalised world that is increasingly defined through international institutionalism, cross border cooperation, movement, dissemination of information and cultural contamination. The influence of all this on Ukraine resulting over time in its people seeking closer political association with Europe and the west in general, which do accept these developments.

An unacceptable future in Putin's mind. His misreading of history and cultures, plus his zero-sum view of the world, cannot allow for a Ukraine that is not dominated by the Russian state. There's only one association they should apparently seek and that is with the Kremlin. Free will be damned. In fact - that's part of the problem here. The countries around Russia are simply pawns on a chessboard to the Kremlin, at worst a constant reminder of the collapse of the USSR. For some reason they're also under the impression that everything under the umbrella of NATO/the EU functions the same way. As though there's a conspiracy ring of sorts in washington or paris controlling everyone else - hence his denunciation of the western 'empire of lies', and his cynical use of state media and influence operations to counteract it.

It's obvious that whatever Putin is thinking, he can't succeed. In fact he's probably his own worst enemy as the war has irreversibly destroyed any sense of commonality and brotherhood among Russians and Ukrainians. At best he'll claim the part of the country that's Russian, the Donbas and Crimea, and will permanently lose out on all the rest. At worst he'll damn the entire place to a protracted war with Russian forces or a future of civil war as he tries to impose some sort of puppet government. Each option is ruinous to the Russian state as well, as is already apparent in the impact of various sanctions.

Right wingers are starting to turn against the Ukrainians. The war is now a culture war issue. "Ukraine and Biden conspiracy put Putin's back to the wall."

At this point I'd say Putin has exactly zero interest in negotiations or 'peace', he's going to achieve his objectives and dictate from there, the talks are a sham.

Also, sabotage of the Belarus rail system, good job chaps.



https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/03/21/ … nnections/

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-699184

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Right wingers are starting to turn against the Ukrainians. The war is now a culture war issue. "Ukraine and Biden conspiracy put Putin's back to the wall."

I don't imagine there's much "starting to" about it. They were already turned against Ukraine during the Trump stuff. Also don't discount the right-wingers who are vehemently against the invasion regardless of prior thoughts about Ukraine's corruption (with or without apportioning blame to the west). I've got way more of those in my circle of Republican contacts.

I imagine a lot of boomers remember the Soviet Union with a lack of fondness.

You mean don't remember diving into your bomb shelter when the EU was shelling your town with rocket artillery?

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

You mean don't remember diving into your bomb shelter when the EU was shelling your town with rocket artillery?

you weren't there, man!!! i remember the summer when they tried to instate a rule on how curved/straight imported bananas should be ... my own personal GRAD barrage.