It's in the language. No nothing = something.
restrained missile:
Russian Airstrike Hits Civilian, Administrative Area in Kharkiv
https://www.albawaba.com/news/russian-a … iv-1468193
Also traffic nearby. Don't play the embedded video if you don't want to be all like "did I just watch a bunch of people die?"
Russian Airstrike Hits Civilian, Administrative Area in Kharkiv
https://www.albawaba.com/news/russian-a … iv-1468193
Also traffic nearby. Don't play the embedded video if you don't want to be all like "did I just watch a bunch of people die?"
except nobody died in this strike (confirmed yet, anyway). and the ‘administrative building’ was a makeshift military HQ full of supplies and leadership.
it’s amazing how half the videos being circulated all of 2 days ago are now showing up from other perspectives. the ukrainian’s are winning the ‘info war’, let’s put it that way.
it’s amazing how half the videos being circulated all of 2 days ago are now showing up from other perspectives. the ukrainian’s are winning the ‘info war’, let’s put it that way.
Last edited by uziq (2022-03-01 02:23:13)
I've said from the beginning that this stuff is going to have to be taken with a grain of salt. Sorting the real from the fake from the miscaptioned is very tedious. I'm sure we'll have a laundry list of various confirmed edits and deep fakes by the time this is all through. Taking the video at face value for a moment (at least the one I watched before looking up an article), a bunch of cars were shown caught beneath the fireball. Not my first choice of places to be if I want to avoid burns, cuts, concussions, tinnitus, or worse. I didn't intend to watch it, but it just autoplayed on me where I saw it.
That said, yes: making a military target out of your civilian thing might get it targeted militarily. Or your civilian thing might just get targeted or accidentally struck anyway. Bottom line, Russia doesn't really need to be there regardless of whatever restraint they're purportedly exercising. I'd hoped we could put a lid on this kind of nonsense for awhile. Give the world at least some modicum of breathing room, at least while COVID-19 is being dealt with. Wasn't Russia busy enough with that as it is?
That said, yes: making a military target out of your civilian thing might get it targeted militarily. Or your civilian thing might just get targeted or accidentally struck anyway. Bottom line, Russia doesn't really need to be there regardless of whatever restraint they're purportedly exercising. I'd hoped we could put a lid on this kind of nonsense for awhile. Give the world at least some modicum of breathing room, at least while COVID-19 is being dealt with. Wasn't Russia busy enough with that as it is?
‘civilian area’ - its a major city. do you think americans dropped bombs on middle-eastern cities with no cars around? how many hundreds of thousands of words have been written about the US’s euphemistic (that is, mendacious) use of the term ‘precision bombing’?
the number of people exclaiming ‘war crimes!’ and calling for people to be dragged to the hague. lmao. have americans not been aware of how many factories, schools, hospitals, etc, their tax dollars have been claiming as collateral? i hate to be ‘that guy’ but jesus christ.
considering the russian army’s capabilities, the fact they’re highly organised around artillery and air power, etc, plus considering their previous record in urban warfare in levelling capital cities like grozny, frankly i think their current levels of restraint are surprising, going on miraculous.
hitting specified targets with known military assets/personnel is the least bad actuality of the way they’re prosecuting this invasion.
the number of people exclaiming ‘war crimes!’ and calling for people to be dragged to the hague. lmao. have americans not been aware of how many factories, schools, hospitals, etc, their tax dollars have been claiming as collateral? i hate to be ‘that guy’ but jesus christ.
considering the russian army’s capabilities, the fact they’re highly organised around artillery and air power, etc, plus considering their previous record in urban warfare in levelling capital cities like grozny, frankly i think their current levels of restraint are surprising, going on miraculous.
hitting specified targets with known military assets/personnel is the least bad actuality of the way they’re prosecuting this invasion.
Last edited by uziq (2022-03-01 02:29:35)
"Do I think," no I don't think that. I've expressed my distaste for that stuff on our end with increasing frustration over the years. Aren't the whataboutisms usually Shahter's thing anyway?
Don't get me wrong. I'm not waving a Ukrainian flag, reddit-idolizing Zelenskyy as a "gigachad," or buying into the stuff paraded by the nationalists. I didn't change avatars, signatures (certainly not calling Putin 'gay' as an insult), or anything else in my social media. I do think some of the fervor for all that is taking on a bit of a monstrous life. Meanwhile, I just want to see an armistice, yesterday. And for this sort of thing to become an antiquated thing that just isn't done in the future. I don't want to see any more of my friends' families split between warring nations.
I'm not on board with people howling to guillotine the rich either. This country doesn't need a revival of lynch mobs.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not waving a Ukrainian flag, reddit-idolizing Zelenskyy as a "gigachad," or buying into the stuff paraded by the nationalists. I didn't change avatars, signatures (certainly not calling Putin 'gay' as an insult), or anything else in my social media. I do think some of the fervor for all that is taking on a bit of a monstrous life. Meanwhile, I just want to see an armistice, yesterday. And for this sort of thing to become an antiquated thing that just isn't done in the future. I don't want to see any more of my friends' families split between warring nations.
I'm not on board with people howling to guillotine the rich either. This country doesn't need a revival of lynch mobs.
yeah, it's not so much what-aboutism as a kind of 'so what?'-ism. there seems to be a generation of people consuming this war footage from ukraine and making out that russia are a uniquely bloodthirsty aggressor. so far civilians have been almost completely untouched, insofar as official policy goes anyway and not any of the obvious war crimes breaches/fog of war-type stuff. but the general reaction to, well, pretty much any military activity really beggars belief: what do these people think war is? an army is going to shoot missiles or drop bombs on their military foes. that's how it works.
re: "precision bombing", i really do think that several decades of war, going back to gulf war I, has inured and lulled americans to sleep with this phrase. they've all been going to bed at night gently self-deluding themselves that their fantastic, space-age 'precision' munitions are dropping bombs directly on Bad People's heads and making them go 'poof!' into non-existence. and not, er, you know, dropping huge high-pressure munitions on urban centres full of innocent bystanders, sometimes based off very shaky intelligence.
re: "precision bombing", i really do think that several decades of war, going back to gulf war I, has inured and lulled americans to sleep with this phrase. they've all been going to bed at night gently self-deluding themselves that their fantastic, space-age 'precision' munitions are dropping bombs directly on Bad People's heads and making them go 'poof!' into non-existence. and not, er, you know, dropping huge high-pressure munitions on urban centres full of innocent bystanders, sometimes based off very shaky intelligence.
Last edited by uziq (2022-03-01 02:41:58)
Again, read above. Not ignoring any of that, and should be the last time I have to mention. Save it for the reddit kiddos. I would regard video of a missile slamming into Moscow with equal aversion.
History should be a wakeup call for people who think civilians don't get hurt, either intentionally or in the crossfire. Presentation of war history should be brutal and horrific, even if it makes you "feel bad." It shouldn't be easy to whip a population up into a war fervor. Idealism talking maybe, but our species has bigger fish to fry I think.
History should be a wakeup call for people who think civilians don't get hurt, either intentionally or in the crossfire. Presentation of war history should be brutal and horrific, even if it makes you "feel bad." It shouldn't be easy to whip a population up into a war fervor. Idealism talking maybe, but our species has bigger fish to fry I think.
i am not contradicting you. my post started with "yeah".
my other point was that we are all sharing this footage claiming to show 'barbarism' and then a day later some new information emerges that contradicts the ukrainian version. not to say that it changes the moral calculus of the war or the fact that this is an abomination being visited upon an innocent people. but, still, the outgunned ukrainians are clearly pooling their efforts on the public presentation/information front.
it seemed a little bit like your link was unquestioning about this.
a few days ago everyone was talking about the 'heroic sailors' on snake island. every single media outlet ran the story of their valiant last words, 'fuck you', etc. amazing optics, practically a hollywood movie script. the ukrainian administration even rushed through news that they had been declared posthumous 'heroes of the nation' and would be commemorated with statues, etc. fast forward all of 48 hours and we now have 'new intelligence' that the russians captured them, instead, and are holding them prisoner. so, erm, that rather neatly cancels out the image of the bloodthirsty evil russian navy bombarding defenceless heroes into oblivion, doesn't it? but, still, it achieved its intended effect in the media already. the fact they're still alive and unharmed is a fussy footnote.
my other point was that we are all sharing this footage claiming to show 'barbarism' and then a day later some new information emerges that contradicts the ukrainian version. not to say that it changes the moral calculus of the war or the fact that this is an abomination being visited upon an innocent people. but, still, the outgunned ukrainians are clearly pooling their efforts on the public presentation/information front.
it seemed a little bit like your link was unquestioning about this.
a few days ago everyone was talking about the 'heroic sailors' on snake island. every single media outlet ran the story of their valiant last words, 'fuck you', etc. amazing optics, practically a hollywood movie script. the ukrainian administration even rushed through news that they had been declared posthumous 'heroes of the nation' and would be commemorated with statues, etc. fast forward all of 48 hours and we now have 'new intelligence' that the russians captured them, instead, and are holding them prisoner. so, erm, that rather neatly cancels out the image of the bloodthirsty evil russian navy bombarding defenceless heroes into oblivion, doesn't it? but, still, it achieved its intended effect in the media already. the fact they're still alive and unharmed is a fussy footnote.
Last edited by uziq (2022-03-01 02:55:17)
The Russians are using cluster bombs in civilian areas, pretty sure thats not allowed.
They haven't really pushed beyond the outskirts yet they're bombarding the city centre with colossal munitions.
Once again the world is thrown into chaos by a psychotic turd, and I don't mean GWB.
Putin has been an animal for decades now, we've done nothing which has emboldened him.
At this point I'd be fine with stripping the oligarchs of any wealth outside Russia, maintaining sanctions until the Russians revolt or the Generals lynch him.
We're going to have no choice but to block oil and gas exports to deal with this.
Its fairly likely there'll be an engineered engagement with NATO as part of this, Polish aircraft 'accidentally' shot down etc, its clearly what Putin is itching for.
If not apart from Moldova the Baltics are next and they are part of NATO.
Putin has already received the message loud and clear that the US won't go to war with Russia over anything.
They haven't really pushed beyond the outskirts yet they're bombarding the city centre with colossal munitions.
Once again the world is thrown into chaos by a psychotic turd, and I don't mean GWB.
Putin has been an animal for decades now, we've done nothing which has emboldened him.
At this point I'd be fine with stripping the oligarchs of any wealth outside Russia, maintaining sanctions until the Russians revolt or the Generals lynch him.
We're going to have no choice but to block oil and gas exports to deal with this.
Its fairly likely there'll be an engineered engagement with NATO as part of this, Polish aircraft 'accidentally' shot down etc, its clearly what Putin is itching for.
If not apart from Moldova the Baltics are next and they are part of NATO.
Putin has already received the message loud and clear that the US won't go to war with Russia over anything.
Fuck Israel
pretty sure the russians wrangled themselves out of any sort of geneva-type agreement on cluster munitions a decade ago. that's how they've been acting with impunity in syria throughout the entire civil war.
Ok, well, the article just says where it landed and what the regional governor had to say about it, a far cry from a lot of the lengthy supposition and color I originally saw the video with. I specifically plucked it because it was short and had the multimedia, and no comments. I suppose you could criticize it for omitting civilian structures being used by the military, whatever the case may have been there.
Still, this all needs to stop regardless, which of course I think you agreed with earlier.
Still, this all needs to stop regardless, which of course I think you agreed with earlier.
Well its a war crime and the ICC has been given jurisdiction by Ukraine.
There's no good solution, at this point no easy way to put Putin back in his box without risking a nuclear war.
Really we're all dependent on how well the Ukrainians can fight, or if Putin can be deposed.
There's no good solution, at this point no easy way to put Putin back in his box without risking a nuclear war.
Really we're all dependent on how well the Ukrainians can fight, or if Putin can be deposed.
Fuck Israel
there's been one video of cluster munitions being used in kharkhiv i think? i have heard of other incidents of clear war crimes, too, no question.
however, we've just chosen to immiserate 145 million people whose average monthly income even before this thing was $400.
we are now rushing to hyperinflate russia's economy, collapse its currency, and to cut its civilian population off from most of the world's services.
and you're still asking for more to be done to them.
it's just as conceivable that they'll be about as 'emboldened' to depose putin by this as the iranians or north koreans were. the state media there are already busily spinning this as an act of malice by the tyrannical west.
however, we've just chosen to immiserate 145 million people whose average monthly income even before this thing was $400.
we are now rushing to hyperinflate russia's economy, collapse its currency, and to cut its civilian population off from most of the world's services.
and you're still asking for more to be done to them.
it's just as conceivable that they'll be about as 'emboldened' to depose putin by this as the iranians or north koreans were. the state media there are already busily spinning this as an act of malice by the tyrannical west.
70 fighter jets have now been handed over to Ukrainian fighter pilots.
EU and Ukrainian parliament specifically cited:
- 28 MiG-29s from Poland
- 12 MiG-29s from Slovakia
- 16 MiG-29s from Bulgaria
- 14 Su-25s from Bulgaria
Seems like an act of war to me, fuck them.
Seems like a bit of smoke and mirrors but we'll see.
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/02/2 … s-00012560
A question is what would happen if a NATO country attacked Belarus?
It would seem reasonable to knock out their airfields.
EU and Ukrainian parliament specifically cited:
- 28 MiG-29s from Poland
- 12 MiG-29s from Slovakia
- 16 MiG-29s from Bulgaria
- 14 Su-25s from Bulgaria
Seems like an act of war to me, fuck them.
Seems like a bit of smoke and mirrors but we'll see.
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/02/2 … s-00012560
A question is what would happen if a NATO country attacked Belarus?
It would seem reasonable to knock out their airfields.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2022-03-01 03:23:26)
Fuck Israel
addendum to this, from a tweet earlier:uziq wrote:
re: "precision bombing", i really do think that several decades of war, going back to gulf war I, has inured and lulled americans to sleep with this phrase. they've all been going to bed at night gently self-deluding themselves that their fantastic, space-age 'precision' munitions are dropping bombs directly on Bad People's heads and making them go 'poof!' into non-existence. and not, er, you know, dropping huge high-pressure munitions on urban centres full of innocent bystanders, sometimes based off very shaky intelligence.
“ i can't believe americans are seriously getting into nuclear war prepper stuff after spending the last two years being mentally unable to cope with wearing a cloth mask while in line at Dunkin's. how have we not updated our delusions??”
haha.
- SuperJail Warden
- Gone Forever
- +641|3960
Remember when the U.K. and France attacked Libya but ran out of bombs and needed the U.S. to step up? It is possible that Russia didn't have the equipment for a Gulf War level of bombing. Same with spare parts for jets etc.
i think it's established that russia's army has a relatively tiny number of precision bombs, cruise missiles, etc. the worry is that their conventional army is extremely artillery-heavy and that they can reduce cities to rubble using, er, imprecise munitions.
- SuperJail Warden
- Gone Forever
- +641|3960
Considering what we have seen so far, one has to wonder how much of the stuff they have is in working condition. Would be unsurprised to see the Ukrainians finding artillery guns with blow up barrels for instance because the ammo went bad etc.
The Pentagon said that forward units are running out of food too. Unironically hope more of our bloated military weapons find their way into Ukrainian hands.
The Pentagon said that forward units are running out of food too. Unironically hope more of our bloated military weapons find their way into Ukrainian hands.
i mean, yeah, their logistics and organization has been chaotic. but the belarusian border is less than a day away from kyiv. it's not like resupply is a huge problem.
i reckon their military hardware is super poorly maintained. probably have far fewer mechanics and much poorer maintenance routines than would be seen in other top-tier forces.
everyone in the EU/UK is talking up how many NLAWs and ATGMs we're putting into ukraine. lol. the ukrainian army is basically an infantry-only force. a quick google tells me that russia have 13,500 battle tanks and 20,000-30,000 armoured vehicles. that's gonna take a lot of ukrainians edging around broken walls with shoulder-mounted boom tubes. even if there's a high level of wear-and-tear in the russian hardware.
i reckon their military hardware is super poorly maintained. probably have far fewer mechanics and much poorer maintenance routines than would be seen in other top-tier forces.
everyone in the EU/UK is talking up how many NLAWs and ATGMs we're putting into ukraine. lol. the ukrainian army is basically an infantry-only force. a quick google tells me that russia have 13,500 battle tanks and 20,000-30,000 armoured vehicles. that's gonna take a lot of ukrainians edging around broken walls with shoulder-mounted boom tubes. even if there's a high level of wear-and-tear in the russian hardware.
- SuperJail Warden
- Gone Forever
- +641|3960
The Ukrainians have an uphill battle. No doubt. Those antitank weapons aren't to be underestimated. Look how many tanks Syria had in 2011 right before their civil war started.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of … yrian_Army
The program to give Syrian rebels TOWs is tiny compared to the open aid we have been giving the Ukrainians.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of … yrian_Army
The program to give Syrian rebels TOWs is tiny compared to the open aid we have been giving the Ukrainians.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore
so the vast amount of the syrian army’s stuff is literally 1950s era hand-me-downs?
and erm, didn’t the syrian army win? lol.
and erm, didn’t the syrian army win? lol.
Last edited by uziq (2022-03-01 10:08:40)
- SuperJail Warden
- Gone Forever
- +641|3960
A lot of Russia's 10 million tanks and stuff are Soviet too.
The Syrian Army got bailed out multiple times. In 2013 Iran and Hezbollah needed to send ground forces because the rebels were winning in Damascus. In 2015 Russia needed to send in their air force and more ground forces since AQ in Syria was rolling through northern Syria while rebels and ISIS were advancing too. Trump then cut off aid in 2017. Keep in mind in 2014 half the rebels joined ISIS and went off to fight a war against the rest of the world.
Meanwhile Ukraine is a bigger, more populous and more united country. They are getting way more aid than we gave the Syrians. And we aren't bombing half the Ukrainians because they beheaded an American and attacked a disco. Russia doesn't have enough resources in Ukraine to pacify it. Even if they do take Kiev.
I am really interested in how the foreign volunteers work out for Ukraine. Thousands of fighters went to fight for ISIS. And that was something we desperately tried to stop instead of applauding.
The Syrian Army got bailed out multiple times. In 2013 Iran and Hezbollah needed to send ground forces because the rebels were winning in Damascus. In 2015 Russia needed to send in their air force and more ground forces since AQ in Syria was rolling through northern Syria while rebels and ISIS were advancing too. Trump then cut off aid in 2017. Keep in mind in 2014 half the rebels joined ISIS and went off to fight a war against the rest of the world.
Meanwhile Ukraine is a bigger, more populous and more united country. They are getting way more aid than we gave the Syrians. And we aren't bombing half the Ukrainians because they beheaded an American and attacked a disco. Russia doesn't have enough resources in Ukraine to pacify it. Even if they do take Kiev.
I am really interested in how the foreign volunteers work out for Ukraine. Thousands of fighters went to fight for ISIS. And that was something we desperately tried to stop instead of applauding.
My biggest takeaway from the whole thing is just how sad it is to watch, which was also my main feeling from the Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict. Much of what I remember from Iraq was sanitized through traditional media outlets in addition to just being a dumbass kid at the time, but I feel far less "let's go __our side__" compared to just a Hawkeye-esque futility. My naive hope would be the widespread coverage tamps down on the warmongering in the population for the near future, though there are already factions saying "we should get in there".
There has also been the memes (and probably propaganda) speculating why this has gotten so much more attention than recent combat in Yemen or Somalia and so on, claiming it's because Ukraine = much more white country = therefore we care. The most striking thing to me is just how readily I could imagine these videos in my area. Yes, Kiev doesn't match super close to middle American cities but it's far more imaginable than Fallujah reminding me of home.
There has also been the memes (and probably propaganda) speculating why this has gotten so much more attention than recent combat in Yemen or Somalia and so on, claiming it's because Ukraine = much more white country = therefore we care. The most striking thing to me is just how readily I could imagine these videos in my area. Yes, Kiev doesn't match super close to middle American cities but it's far more imaginable than Fallujah reminding me of home.
- SuperJail Warden
- Gone Forever
- +641|3960
It would be bizarre and sus if white Americans weren't moved by seeing blown up white people. I like the brief flash of patriotic unity.
I had a conversation with a white supervisor at work about Ukraine. The guy is very well educated. Very generous to me too. So not a pig man though I suspect others would feel different about that.
Mac: "We are going to get a lot of refugees in our area"
Boss: "No we aren't. Biden is not going to let them in. He only lets in people on welfare and drugs. People from Guatemala, Honduras, those places. The Ukrainians are hard workers. They aren't on drugs and welfare. Biden is not going to let the Ukrainians in because they...they..they don't."
Mac: "They don't fit the profile?"
Boss "Yes, that's right. They don't fit the profile. The Ukrainians are hard workers and Biden hates the working man..."
Half of that weirdo conversation the other day.
I had a conversation with a white supervisor at work about Ukraine. The guy is very well educated. Very generous to me too. So not a pig man though I suspect others would feel different about that.
Mac: "We are going to get a lot of refugees in our area"
Boss: "No we aren't. Biden is not going to let them in. He only lets in people on welfare and drugs. People from Guatemala, Honduras, those places. The Ukrainians are hard workers. They aren't on drugs and welfare. Biden is not going to let the Ukrainians in because they...they..they don't."
Mac: "They don't fit the profile?"
Boss "Yes, that's right. They don't fit the profile. The Ukrainians are hard workers and Biden hates the working man..."
Half of that weirdo conversation the other day.