BF2S Forums Where are all the whiny peaceful "Enlightened" European now?

Again you missed my point to focus on Olive Garden. What do you think is a classy food place? I promise to repost my comments with your preferred place instead of Olive Garden so that your brain doesn't blue screen.

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:

i'm grateful to live in a country where the price of your home doesn't dictate your class. imagine a navy pog going around like he's some haute bourgeois. it's really too unbearable.

America is awesome, innit? Land of opportunity.

Dunno what you're on about though, mate. Professional Engineer is on par, respectability-wise, with doctors and lawyers. Professional class. It's even in the title! Pays well, too, it does. I get to use me brain and erryting.

an engineer is like a chartered accountant or something. lots of professions have their own industry 'accreditation'. that doesn't automatically mean you're upper-middle class and part of the social beau monde. nobody here would call an accountant 'upper-middle' class. they're just a standard middle-class professional with a graduate-level job.

bit of a fruitless comparison in any serious way, of course, because in europe our class definitions actually make sense. in america everyone is too embarrassed to admit to being working-class (despite the vast majority literally being so, even if skilled labour), so people shopping at wal-mart in idaho are 'middle-class' and standard suburbanites in new jersey think they're 'upper-middle'. the whole thing becomes totally senseless.

anyway, my original point is that how much you make and how much your house is worth does not entirely define your class. it is called socio-economic status for a reason, not economic status. this is why you bristled so much and got pissy when i insisted on the inconveniences of cultural/social capital, which are so patently self-evident and recognised in everyday human interactions. you can't get a promotion or expand your pizza restaurant to another branch in the next township to get those things. 'money can't buy class' as the adage goes. you need the habitus, mannerisms, and way of looking at the world that comes habitually with the social status.

if you did actually hang around with the upper-middle class, like those people you despise in expensive brownstones with their artistic lifestyles, you'd very quickly be made to feel inferior, ostracized by references and spheres of activity in which you have no experience. it's all very well repeating to yourself the mantra that you're 'upper-middle' now, the boy done good!, land of opportunity! but we all know here that you'd look like a sweating jacket potato sat in a tux at the opera, jay.

Last edited by uziq (2020-02-19 11:21:25)

The class system died in the early 20th century. These days you either have money, or you're in politics. Then there's everyone else.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-02-19 11:03:12)

Larssen wrote:

The class system died in the early 20th century. These days you either have money, or you're in politics.

that's a convenient line for someone to have who emerged from a rock-quarry full of troglodytes in the low countries. but you know it isn't true.

in fact ironically we both live in countries where the 'ambitious' political class are actually looked down upon by landed gentry, etc as being 'vulgarly ambitious'.

the class system as analysed by marx, that is of a fordist economy, with divisions between workers and managers, wage labourers and owner of property, etc. yes, that's out-of-date like the crinoline. but has class disappeared with it? please. this was the naive sloganeering of thatcher's era. it didn't go anywhere.

Last edited by uziq (2020-02-19 11:04:09)

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Quelle surprise, where you live impacts how far your earnings go. Poverty line here is I think $86k/year. "Making six figures" could mean a lot of things. I make six figures and I'm decidedly middle class. I even have a director title. Upper middle class can mean different things in different areas. I doubt a six figure income in Long Island is even close to sniffing upper middle class unless it's >$400K/year.

It's not. Homes start around 500k. Property taxes start around 10. It takes a lot of money to live on long island, which is why half my born and raised here peer group has fled to other states. They were replaced with high earners from elsewhere. My wife is a senior director at a multinational. I make more than her. I'll leave it at that.

i thought your wife was an english graduate without any hopes? a director of a multinational? do they have a grammar kiosk in cuba?

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Again you missed my point to focus on Olive Garden. What do you think is a classy food place? I promise to repost my comments with your preferred place instead of Olive Garden so that your brain doesn't blue screen.

That's kind of your burden to answer. You're the one who mentioned it in the first place. So what's it going to be? Applebee's? Domino's? True vices of the selfish affluential indeed.

Red Lobster good for you?

Hibachi? Hibachi is like $40 a plate at my local place. I can't afford that 5 times a week.

uziq wrote:

Larssen wrote:

The class system died in the early 20th century. These days you either have money, or you're in politics.

that's a convenient line for someone to have who emerged from a rock-quarry full of troglodytes in the low countries. but you know it isn't true.

Funny, but it felt more like a swamp

in fact ironically we both live in countries where the 'ambitious' political class are actually looked down upon by landed gentry, etc as being 'vulgarly ambitious'.

the class system as analysed by marx, that is of a fordist economy, with divisions between workers and managers, wage labourers and owner of property, etc. yes, that's out-of-date like the crinoline. but has class disappeared with it? please. this was the naive sloganeering of thatcher's era. it didn't go anywhere.

It has mostly disappeared. These 'landed gentry' you write of are nowhere to be found. And what was the system anyway - simply a social community created to keep wealth and power firmly in its own hands. Frantically looking for ways to distance itself from the plebs. Sure, the excess wealth and time did give rise to respectable intellectual and artful pursuits, but the majority of the caste were just as crude and vulgar as their plebeian counterparts, only veiled by their clothes, manner of speech and norms. A thin veneer.

Moreover the aristocracy as it developed in France, the UK and parts of Germany didn't quite land as well in these parts of Europe. Perhaps it 'lives on' in some form there but here it means little beyond a long surname.

Larssen wrote:

uziq wrote:

Larssen wrote:

The class system died in the early 20th century. These days you either have money, or you're in politics.

that's a convenient line for someone to have who emerged from a rock-quarry full of troglodytes in the low countries. but you know it isn't true.

Funny, but it felt more like a swamp

in fact ironically we both live in countries where the 'ambitious' political class are actually looked down upon by landed gentry, etc as being 'vulgarly ambitious'.

the class system as analysed by marx, that is of a fordist economy, with divisions between workers and managers, wage labourers and owner of property, etc. yes, that's out-of-date like the crinoline. but has class disappeared with it? please. this was the naive sloganeering of thatcher's era. it didn't go anywhere.

It has mostly disappeared. These 'landed gentry' you write of are nowhere to be found. And what was the system anyway - simply a social community created to keep wealth and power firmly in its own hands. Frantically looking for ways to distance itself from the plebs. Sure, the excess wealth and time did give rise to respectable intellectual and artful pursuits, but the majority of the caste were just as crude and vulgar as their plebeian counterparts, only veiled by their clothes, manner of speech and norms. A thin veneer.

Moreover the aristocracy as it developed in France, the UK and parts of Germany didn't quite land as well in these parts of Europe. Perhaps it 'lives on' in some form there but here it means little beyond a long surname.

we have a house of lords with hereditary peerages. what are you actually talking about? half of scotland is still owned by about 12 aristocrats. the situation obtaining in england and wales isn’t much different.

the landed gentry are huge here. have you picked up a Tatler’s recently?

Last edited by uziq (2020-02-19 12:23:21)

uziq wrote:

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:

an engineer is like a chartered accountant or something. lots of professions have their own industry 'accreditation'. that doesn't automatically mean you're upper-middle class and part of the social beau monde. nobody here would call an accountant 'upper-middle' class. they're just a standard middle-class professional with a graduate-level job.

bit of a fruitless comparison in any serious way, of course, because in europe our class definitions actually make sense. in america everyone is too embarrassed to admit to being working-class (despite the vast majority literally being so, even if skilled labour), so people shopping at wal-mart in idaho are 'middle-class' and standard suburbanites in new jersey think they're 'upper-middle'. the whole thing becomes totally senseless.

anyway, my original point is that how much you make and how much your house is worth does not entirely define your class. it is called socio-economic status for a reason, not economic status. this is why you bristled so much and got pissy when i insisted on the inconveniences of cultural/social capital, which are so patently self-evident and recognised in everyday human interactions. you can't get a promotion or expand your pizza restaurant to another branch in the next township to get those things. 'money can't buy class' as the adage goes. you need the habitus, mannerisms, and way of looking at the world that comes habitually with the social status.

if you did actually hang around with the upper-middle class, like those people you despise in expensive brownstones with their artistic lifestyles, you'd very quickly be made to feel inferior, ostracized by references and spheres of activity in which you have no experience. it's all very well repeating to yourself the mantra that you're 'upper-middle' now, the boy done good!, land of opportunity! but we all know here that you'd look like a sweating jacket potato sat in a tux at the opera, jay.

Rather equivalent to a better paid Registered Architect. They make it pretty, we make it function.

architects get a bachelors degree, go to a professional school or graduate school for 2/3 years, and then take apprenticeships for in-work training for several junior years, similar to a pupillage or training contract in law.

what do you have to do to become a HVAC engineer? genuinely curious because over here it is nothing like that.

why are you lecturing me about caring less, when you’re so obviously trying to present yourself as being of a class and status that you’re not? HVAC engineers are not viewed the same as lawyers or doctors, no matter how wishful your thinking. isn’t it you caring in this case? architects, doctors, lawyers, college professors — all have elite, and often private and expensive, education behind them. average span of education is, what, 7 years? 9 years in some cases? why are you even pretending to be on that job strata?

Bachelor's from an accredited institution, four year apprenticeship under a licensed professional engineer, two comprehensive eight hour exams, one usually taken directly out of college earns you "Engineer in Training", the other, after the four years, earns you "Professional Engineer". Only a licensed professional engineer can legally call themselves "engineer". It's a legally protected term. My undergrad degree was in Mechanical Engineering, but as a licensed professional I can sign off on anything that I feel is within my competency, from structural to civil to electrical etc. Only drawings submitted, signed and sealed by a professional engineer or a registered architect can be submitted for approval to planning boards and the like.

I'm not pretending anything. In America, it is located firmly within the professional ranks.

uziq wrote:

Jay wrote:

Insecure people like yourself trying to one-up each other a social events. How utterly boring. What a waste of time.

And for the record, I hold my own quite well. I've had a rather interesting life and I have lots of stories to tell. Most stock brokers work 16 hours a day, hate their families, and golf on the weekend. They're boring people. I can't tell you how many have told me they hate chasing money and envy what I do for a living.

this is a variation of the gamer’s ‘anyone better than me is a no-lifer sad sack of shit’ / ‘anyone worse than me is a fuckin lame ass noob’ mentality. those people in their upper-east side apartments can’t possibly be having fun, when they go to the opera! they’re just doing it to show off! they must be miserable!

cognitive dissonance 101

uzi, I'm born and raised on the North Shore of Long Island. My father-in-law is a bond trader. I commute with stock brokers on the train every morning. I socialize with them on the weekends. The only ones that I've found that actually enjoy the game are the alpha male type sharks that would sell their own mother if it meant winning a bet. Literally the only thing that stirs their heart is gambling and winning. They're not the types I willingly socialize with. If they try to play the snob I casually mention where I went to high school and that I'm a veteran and they back the fuck down. Works like a charm.

we have a house of lords with hereditary peerages. what are you actually talking about? half of scotland is still owned by about 12 aristocrats. the situation obtaining in england and wales isn’t much different.

the landed gentry are huge here. have you picked up a Tatler’s recently?

Oh I was mostly speaking from the perspective of rock quarries and swamps full of troglodytes. You'll find firstly that the landed gentry here wasn't that all powerful or well developed, second that in the places where world wars 1 & 2 were physically fought little remains of them. Now it's just some families with large estates that cost more in maintenance and upkeep than they make in tourism revenue. Most end up in the care of the state as landmarks of historical importance.

Yes, forgot about hereditary peerage in the UK for a second. Glad I don't live there.

My mother used to complain about all the 'new money' that infested  the place she grew up in. The landed gentry didn't last far beyond the sixties that's for sure.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-02-19 12:51:00)