SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3711
England at least gets something out of North Ireland and Scotland though, right? Maybe not direct transfers from the government but at least a bigger market. England alone would have a smaller population, economy, and military than France. If Germany had nuclear weapons and a UNSC seat England without Scotland and NI would be the clear #3 of Western Europe.

People willing to throw away parts of their country and even their world standing because of grievance politics reminds me of the conservatives who want to kick California out of the union because of the liberal media not being nice to them. Blue America and Red America would be a lot more poor without each other.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5350|London, England

uziq wrote:

we are at a time when status quo politics are quickly becoming wildly incapable of dealing with economic inequality, widespread demographic change, and technological disruption. ‘business as usual’ politics isn’t cutting it. capitalism is making everyone bitter and broke; and technology, and what used to be called the ‘information revolution’, is just making us more lost and confused. no surprises that politicians like sanders and corbyn are sticking out front like annoying pieces of grit in the eye. they talk about breaking up tech giants and going after tax evasion. these are huge structural issues that are having a direct influence on the rapidly polarising (and ugly) political landscape of today.
Are you a naturally pessimistic person? I don't mean this as an insult or anything, just curious. Does pessimism lead someone to this sort of political stance or is it the prevailing emotional state among people you identify with? It's a chicken and the egg sort of thing I suppose. People that lean left, in my experience, tend to have an overwhelming feeling of hopelessness bordering on depression.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+492|3444
i am not pessimistic or depressed. but thanks for the diagnosis based on my post. i haven’t ever cast a vote for corbyn’s labour, either. i’m just explaining to you that the picture is bigger than your shitrag national review and its useful idiot correspondents from the U.K. makes out.

your 'analysis' is about as pointed as saying that everyone on the right is a paranoiac, or governed by fear, chased by ghosts. the big scary Other! immigrants who are rapists and drug dealers! or like saying everyone who is pro-market is a psychopath with no fellow-feeling, etc. not quite first-year undergraduate, is it jay?

that the status quo isn’t holding things together can hardly be ‘pessimism’ or news to anyone. donald trump is the leader of the free world ffs.

Last edited by uziq (2019-10-18 12:44:49)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6764|PNW

"Liberals are anti-fun" is pretty standard fare.
uziq
Member
+492|3444
'people that lean left tend to have an overwhelming feeling of hopelessness'.

https://i.imgur.com/3mdg81B.png



okay jay. the politics of resentment and depression eh? meanwhile you keep reading things like the national review, where every article is full of hate, bitterness, and chagrin. constant cultural jeremiads and ranting and raving. but progressives have a psychological problem!!!

Last edited by uziq (2019-10-19 01:08:46)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6098|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

Are you a naturally pessimistic person? I don't mean this as an insult or anything, just curious. Does pessimism lead someone to this sort of political stance or is it the prevailing emotional state among people you identify with? It's a chicken and the egg sort of thing I suppose. People that lean left, in my experience, tend to have an overwhelming feeling of hopelessness bordering on depression.
As Uzique said, better to be pessimistic than paranoid. Paranoia of the right seems to have created most of the problems in the world.
If it were as bad as you say you'd think the 'Left' would all have killed themselves by now.

Otherwise I think you mean that 'the Left' think more seriously about the future than 'the Right' does, and see issues which 'the Right' wilfully ignores.
I'm sure its nice living in a smug bubble of ignorance, dissonance and hypocrisy believing you can run up endless debt which someone else will pay off and Mommy Market will clear up all your booboos, but most people grow up at some point and take responsibility for the consequences of their decisions and actions, just as teenagers eventually discover they can't put everything on visa and if they keep throwing beer cans in the garden they will run out of space and get rats.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3711
The American right realized that they lost the culture wars in the 60's and subsequently gave up on American society. They don't want to invest in the nation and its people because see it as damned and beyond redemption. Of course this dovetails nicely with the Evangelical belief in predestination and the idea that some people are hellbound by default.

This results in voting for things like tax cuts and against any expansion of the social safety net. Why invest in the damned when you can instead get to go to Olive Garden 4 times a month instead of 1?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6764|PNW

Hundreds of newly created and pro-Trump Twitter accounts rallied behind Boris Johnson on Thursday in activity deemed “suspicious” by a number of experts familiar with online manipulation.
https://firstdraftnews.org/pro-trump-tw … it-message
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6098|eXtreme to the maX

SuperJail Warden wrote:

The American right realized that they lost the culture wars in the 60's and subsequently gave up on American society. They don't want to invest in the nation and its people because see it as damned and beyond redemption. Of course this dovetails nicely with the Evangelical belief in predestination and the idea that some people are hellbound by default.

This results in voting for things like tax cuts and against any expansion of the social safety net. Why invest in the damned when you can instead get to go to Olive Garden 4 times a month instead of 1?
Probably, I think the Republicans have been the party of infantile frat-boys for a long time.
Why worry about the future when you can borrow and party forever, someone will come along and bail you out of your mistakes.

Look at Duhbya and now the latest incarnation - the worlds greatest self-made businessman, bankrupt four times and owing his position to Russian govt handouts. I bet his net worth is negative.
It suits the jews and the evangelicals who can manipulate the republicans for their nutty end-of-times agenda.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6098|eXtreme to the maX

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Hundreds of newly created and pro-Trump Twitter accounts rallied behind Boris Johnson on Thursday in activity deemed “suspicious” by a number of experts familiar with online manipulation.
https://firstdraftnews.org/pro-trump-tw … it-message
Whenever US politics hits my local Murdoch rag the comments section is filled with Trump fanbots.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Larssen
Member
+99|1879
I don't really understand Letwin's position, arguing for his amendment while fully backing the new deal Boris made...

It's also unclear what the legal implications are of the request for extension without a signature. Can it still be granted despite the PM not signing it? I hadn't considered the option of sending a letter without a signature, it's pretty shrewd move and seems to put parliament in the defensive as well.

Also, what are the realistic odds of the deal passing parliament? I'm seeing prognoses that indicate the vote would be closely in favour and it's pretty strange to me how that's possible considering the margins with which May's 'meaningful votes' were swept away (344 vs 286 round 3). The last vote still had 34 tory rebels. It's clear the DUP will not vote with the conservatives, nor will labour or obviously LibDem, SNP etc. Meaning Boris would need to, at the very least, pull in all the conservatives who voted against last time.

If they were moderates or partial to the EU and objected against the details of May's deal I'd consider it unlikely they will now suddenly support Boris' deal, but it's said most were from the ERG faction who will surely support him. Still I'm having a hard time seeing how a win of 319 vs 315 or anything of the like seems to be the expected outcome. (https://www.ft.com/content/8518dfe6-f1b … 67d8281195). The ball also seems to be in labour's court to ensure some voting discipline. If I were Corbyn I'd threaten Kate Hoey and the like to disallow them from standing next election as Boris is doing to the ERG hardliners.

Last edited by Larssen (2019-10-20 06:16:19)

uziq
Member
+492|3444
they are relying upon brexit fatigue and carelessness, basically. i mean, MPs had a number of hours to read the full proposal -- totalling 500 pages.

at this point it's a zombie parliament with everyone repeating a bunch of mantras.

boris being a clubbable posh tory chap probably has something to do with why half the tory MPs are rounding behind him based on blind faith, whereas may was a shrewish woman from the middle-classes, not an insider, etc etc. you'd be surprised how many old boys feel instinctively more comfortable around boris.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3711

Dilbert_X wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Hundreds of newly created and pro-Trump Twitter accounts rallied behind Boris Johnson on Thursday in activity deemed “suspicious” by a number of experts familiar with online manipulation.
https://firstdraftnews.org/pro-trump-tw … it-message
Whenever US politics hits my local Murdoch rag the comments section is filled with Trump fanbots.
I think the overwhelming majority of those are real. Reddit, Facebook, and other sites draw English speaking Americans to your local news spots when they otherwise wouldn't visit.

The focus on Russian bots is liberals failing to accept that there is are a lot of people with genuinely right wing and often repulsive views.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
+492|3444
the last US election, and the brexit referendum for that matter, were close enough things to consider the well-established bot farms and propaganda units ran out of places like russia. big data and swing voters make for a bad combination.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3711
I still think it is our own fault that Americans have football brains and we don't regulate social media companies because freedom.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Larssen
Member
+99|1879
Brexit 2020 here we come! Year 4...

Last edited by Larssen (2019-10-22 13:42:48)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6098|eXtreme to the maX
Its OK, the govt has no other issues to address.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3444
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 … bbying-job

it would be interesting to compare how often right-wing politicians do this sort of thing compared to left.
uziq
Member
+492|3444
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6764|PNW

I know it's a kind of juvenile thing to point out, but Boris Johnson reminds me of a literal muppet. I doubt it's the first time that comparison's been cast.
Larssen
Member
+99|1879
Coincidentally I watched the great hack on netflix less than an hour ago. Not a particularly good film, mostly filled with people I can't stand, but what a shitshow cambridge analytica was/is. Did surprise me how likeable those eton old boys who ran the show came across despite the heinous stuff they were consciously involved in.

Anyway, it's incredible how social media is being manipulated. Look at any recently uploaded video of Obama, read the comments and contrast with those on Trump videos. Same goes for Corbyn & Boris as you can see.

Last edited by Larssen (2019-10-25 13:47:57)

uziq
Member
+492|3444
big data, machine learning, AI ... all of this is vastly outstripping the legal/legislative frameworks, and the politicians notionally supposed to keep the public good, too. hence why i was so glad to see zuckerberg at least being made a little uncomfortable by an elected official. the tech nerds and their lawyers/PR firms are running rings around society for their own narrow benefits.

it's pretty much a truism that, when we look at the chinese state's use of things like tech, we shudder and mutter about totalitarian dystopia ... a week later a private company in the west, with even less accountability and a profit motivation, can introduce the exact same tech and people can't wait to sign up for it. we are fucking retarded. facebook wanting to launch its own online cryptocurrency or whatever is literally just them looking at that state-centralised chinese app-for-everything ... and admiring the model. fucking terrifying.
Larssen
Member
+99|1879
In that video that's making the rounds of AoC questioning Zuckerberg I can somewhat sympathise with Zuckerburg's position though. It's clear he sees the internet and facebook simply as public space, in function similar to a town square or street. His job only to connect. What people then choose to do or talk about is up to them.

There's also an added difficulty to policing discussions which isn't acknowledged. Should an algorithm be written to 'fact check' every ad and post from public figures? You'd need far smarter algorithms to do so effectively than the ones we have today. Accounting for context, different languages, figures of speech - the application of a measure like that would probably cause all sorts of unintended censorship. Look to  the demonitisation waves of small time youtube creators as just one example, and that's only because of specific words and topics, not even attempting 'fact checking'.

I also object to the notion that 'we will never again have free/fair elections' - media manipulation is as old as time itself. Used to probably be worse considering the few available sources compared to today.

Last edited by Larssen (2019-10-25 23:36:50)

uziq
Member
+492|3444
that’s just such a naive understanding of public space. public spaces in liberalism are not literally lawless zones where anything goes. they are in fact tightly hemmed in and closely delineated spaces where what is considered civil and appropriate discourse is policed by the state. it’s there in kant and it’s there in habermas. the idea of ‘public space’ being some terra nulla is hopelessly utopian and naive. almost every theoretician of public space and liberal ideals, e.g. foucault, expends a great deal of effort to point out that these spaces are actually created and ensured by some originary state violence or threat of such.

‘just to make people connect and let them do what they will’. that literally ignores the entire value-making and commercial underpinning of facebook. it doesn’t consider at all their ad model. facebook does not make its money by blowing the dust off your high school year book and connecting you to dave, 45, who is now a plumber in poughkeepsie.

you are ignoring literally everything the site does with personal data.

zuckerberg’s attempts to reframe the history of facebook as some noble platform for free speech and perfectly open communications is deplorable. see, for instance, his recent speech given at some college commencement, in which he explicitly tied his vision for facebook to ‘resistance’ to the iraq war and voicing dissent. just to be fucking real, here: the network started as a means for college frat boys to perv on hot female undergraduates. it was a primitive dating app algorithm. cut the bullshit with this ‘free speech’ platform rhetoric.

facebook and companies like google want to cross over into being media platforms and organisations where people go for their news and information, closed ecosystems with their platform and paid affiliates, but they don’t want to be beholden to the regulations that (for good reason) govern good practice in those industries. a paper printing blatant lies on behalf of paying clients wouldn’t stay open very long. facebook thinks it can get away with it if it dissimulates and makes accountability sufficiently diffuse and complicated.

the problem isn’t that implementing the tech is just ‘too complicated, your honour!’: it’s that facebook in the first place wants to be not only a feed where you see social interactions with your friends and connect with colleagues, but also a great sifting and filtering mechanism that connects highly data-mined users with highly targeted ‘news’ and ‘content’... with a paid ads model funnelling cash into that underneath. this is precisely why these giant tech conglomerates need scaling back. you wouldn’t let a fully qualified surgeon try to branch out into dentistry and then complain that it’s ‘too complicated’ to adhere to dental best practice using a scalpel. it’s stupid. if there are too many complications and impracticalities with offering paid political ads on a network that has sorted and silo'd people into easily marketable little groupuscles, bait for pollsters, maybe, you know, they should stop taking money for and allowing political ads.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ … g-congress

Many of Facebook’s third-party fact checkers have still not been told that the company now expects them to vet adverts as well as user content for misinformation – though, controversially, not political adverts.

Some fact checkers only found out that they should be vetting paid adverts after Facebook chief executive Mark Zuckerberg described the new policy in Congress on Wednesday.
is this really how you run one of the most influential tech companies on the planet?

i have no sympathy for the little tyrant.

Last edited by uziq (2019-10-26 04:12:54)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6098|eXtreme to the maX
Hate speech, threats or incitement to kill, communication to organise crimes etc wouldn't be allowed on a town square or street, it would be squashed fairly quickly in Western democracies let alone dicatorships.
We don't currently have the mechanisms to do it on the fast evolving internet.

A question is do we allow things to evolve uncontrolled and try to control them after the fact or not permit them until they can be shown to be controlled and safe.
Or take the Jay approach and do nothing and assume it will all work out fine in the long run.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!

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