uziq
Member
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Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

it hasn't happened in over half a decade. the UK has had consistently some of the lowest corporate tax for the last lustrum.

[img]*[/img]

and you want to know something? france and germany have better levels of investment.
No idea what your point is, except that corporation tax doesn't really correlate with anything?
erm one of her bright ideas was to cut corporation tax, with the idea it would magically drive 'growth' (and investment). dumkopf.

except cutting our corporation tax and overheads to below the levels of competitors in europe didn't deliver growth.

really any talk of 'giving her policies a chance to bed in' are historically illiterate. we've tried low taxes and special dispensations for the mega-rich and multinational corporations before. it was part of thatcher's shock doctrine in the 80s. society did not benefit from it.

Last edited by uziq (2022-10-20 06:17:14)

uziq
Member
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Dilbert_X wrote:

This part of it all is actually anti-democratic, she was the second choice by MPs, first choice by the party membership, clearly she has a mandate - and her platform was of tax cuts and thats what she tried to deliver.

Now a cabal of MPs can just remove her because the markets had a bit of a blip, bizarre.
she was removed because she had lost the confidence of more than 50% of her party, including losing her two seniormost cabinet members, the ones who helped devise and sponsor her political vision. the prime minister is not a president and losing your chancellor and home secretary in a week would ordinarily be occasion for serious reshuffles or reviews even in comparatively stable times.

she never commanded the confidence of her party in the first place. major problems in the way the conservative party run their own business, methinks. clearly the game they were all playing in the last leadership election – involving a fair amount of jostling for position and ministerial ambition – didn't deliver a good result. she was singularly out of her depth. she almost looked relieved to be resigning. she was actually grinning – though not sure if that's the usual benzo'd vacancy. perhaps in her head she thinks she's making sand castles on a beach somewhere.

she was the second choice by MPs
lmao what. in the first round of voting, when it was an open field, she secured 50 votes, a paltry third place. she never broke out from the bottom of the pack until the very final round. she was always trailing in third place. in the first ballot she got 14% of total MPs' support. what the fuck are you talking about, man?

what's 'anti-democratic' is taking 70 million people through the looking glass into wonderland. nobody voted for her platform from the general public. the 'mandate' the conservative party were given at the last election was on a very, very different election manifesto. all of those pledges were hastily abandoned. the downfall of truss began last night when the party MPs were triple-whipped to vote in favour of supporting renewing fracking. continuing the ban on fracking was a central pillar of the conservative manifesto at the last election.

talk about anti-democratic.

Last edited by uziq (2022-10-20 06:16:59)

Larssen
Member
+99|1888
My god what a shitshow lmao

The conservative party is setting itself up to be absolutely demolished in the next GE. Honestly I don't think it will survive at all.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+635|3720
They said the same thing about the GOP in 2016. I would be unsurprised if the Tories win again.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
uziq
Member
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both parties are essentially without a unifying vision or a positive project. there’s no general platform they actually stand for at this point. there’s just an existential desire for self-preservation and all the nakedness of ambition and greed for power/emolument.

the conservative party at the moment is nothing more than a loose affiliation of property owners and board members who want to see their assets increase in value. and from the very top to the very base of their party membership, none of them are actually connected to or aware of what’s going on in the majority of the country, demographically or geographically.

the conservative party has been ‘split’ since the 70s/80s on the issue of europe. brexit obviously made that a central dividing feature of the modern party, a ‘with us or against us’ mentality. suddenly any dissension within the ranks, quite healthy and tolerated before, was an offence that could see an MP having the whip removed. a core of loyal, traditional tories unceremoniously kicked out of their own party. that was the beginning of the end.

now that their deluded/dishonest (pick one) brexit dreams have met with the brute facts of reality – economic self-harm, cratered growth, pathetic trade deals that don’t even begin to compensate for the trading losses, more red tape and bureaucracy rather than less, the inevitable talk of finding and encouraging immigrant labour from somewhere or other – the remaining party has fractured into even more factions.

what unites the political ideology and vision of the truss/kwarteng neo-hayekian libertarians, the ‘one nation’ moderate ‘nice’ conservatives, and the hardline post-UKIP european research group tories? they all have incommensurable views on key aspects of the economy and state. in another political system, like germany’s or the netherlands’s, they’d be 3 entirely separate parties.

the moral thing to do now would be to call a general election. the mandate they have is past its sell-by date and smelling like bad milk. boris campaigned on ‘getting brexit done’ and ‘levelling up’ the economy. he swayed key voters with promise of a boom in public spending and a special sop to neglected regions. but now the last standing tories after debacle after debacle, like jeremy cunt, are trying to serve up years more of reheated austerity, public cuts, and the same old focus on the south-east economic hub. levelling up the north has been abandoned. the entire swing demographic have been abandoned and their back gardens opened up to toxic fracking and seismic activity. how is this democratic?

the only thing uniting the conservatives now is a desire to not lose an election. 200+ MPs are looking shiftily at the recent polling and getting nervous about their plum salaries. that’s literally it. they haven’t been pursuing a positive vision for the country in years. they've done little really to remake the ground or take care of the details of 'getting brexit done'. they’re caught up in in-fighting.

dilbert talks about ‘anti-democratic’ leadership moves, but what is less democratic than a party that has drifted far away from its election manifesto and isn’t actually doing anything to tackle, inter alia, the ongoing pandemic, the cost-of-living crisis, or mass industrial disputes? not having a government that spends its time working for the people is anti-democratic.

Last edited by uziq (2022-10-20 19:24:12)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
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The tories are now completely absorbed with their internal machinations, the last leadership challenge was clearly such fun they want to do it all again.

I couldn't care less about Truss, but after all the free passes Johnson had it seems a smidgeon unfair. We still don't know how many billions he diverted to his chums.

What I do know is we don't know half of the machinations and dirty deals which are going on.
For all I know Kwarteng might have done a deal with Sunak to put a bomb under Truss and deliver the PMship.
Give it six months and see where Kwarteng is. If its a cushy job with Sunak or in the city then we'll know.
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uziq
Member
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https://twitter.com/bydonkeys/status/15 … k1ie7wU7pw

genuinely one of the most odious characters in british public life. i’d be in support of a jacobin purge and a well-sharpened guillotine for this guy.
uziq
Member
+492|3452

Dilbert_X wrote:

The tories are now completely absorbed with their internal machinations, the last leadership challenge was clearly such fun they want to do it all again.

I couldn't care less about Truss, but after all the free passes Johnson had it seems a smidgeon unfair. We still don't know how many billions he diverted to his chums.

What I do know is we don't know half of the machinations and dirty deals which are going on.
For all I know Kwarteng might have done a deal with Sunak to put a bomb under Truss and deliver the PMship.
Give it six months and see where Kwarteng is. If its a cushy job with Sunak or in the city then we'll know.
kwarteng has been on the payroll of his old hedge fund the entire time. this is public record. it’s not exactly surprising he’ll return to work in his existing networks.

what does this have to do with sunak? are you really such a paranoid racist that you think the blacks and the browns are plotting? get a grip for fuck’s sake.

Last edited by uziq (2022-10-22 20:27:19)

uziq
Member
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sunak and johnson meeting in private to broker a power deal. a disgraced former PM who incurred the biggest revolt in modern history and an ex-chancellor who lost the leadership race, conducted between 0.8% of the electorate.

who was complaining about things being anti-democratic again?

Last edited by uziq (2022-10-22 21:10:48)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
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uziq wrote:

https://twitter.com/bydonkeys/status/1583747902685356032?s=46&t=uXPjZsF8A57ok1ie7wU7pw
Sorry, I don't use a platform owned by a nerd

who was complaining about things being anti-democratic again?
Me?

Everything the tories have done lately has been in their own interests, they've been doing this for about 200 years.
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uziq
Member
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why are you complaining about them removing a leader who singularly tanked the economy and made everyone's life much worse in all of about 2 weeks, though? democratic leaders need the support of their party. they need a mandate. a consensus. again, she's wasn't a president, and a bloody good job, too.

truss burnt her political capital in her very first week in office. she rowed back and u-turned on every single part of her agenda. she was left with effectively nothing to do or implement. and you're complaining about her being removed? should we have a sitting duck or ventriloquist dummy occupying the most powerful job in the country for the next 2 years?

Last edited by uziq (2022-10-23 02:00:08)

Dilbert_X
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She didn't actually 'tank' anything, there was a minor blip on 'the markets' which pales into nothing compared with Britain's structural problems.

I thought the govt should govern in the long term interests of the country, not the short term interests of 'the markets'.

What really happened was Sunak was elected by MPs but not the party, but still thought it was his right, because he decided it was and the MPs told him so.

Whats bizarre is Truss was elected with a clearly state agenda - tax cuts, against Sunak's agenda - sensible middle of the road something, as soon as Truss started implementing her agenda the MPs turned on her and maneuvred to put Sunak in.
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Dilbert_X
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Seems like this famous tanking is practically invisible

https://i.imgur.com/VtNxkn9.jpg

Otherwise some bondholders offloaded some bonds, sudden liquidity in a normally static market caused pricing to go haywire, it would probably have blown over when people remembered that 99.9% of bondholders didn't blink at all.

Seems like there's a clear trend, whether Truss had any impact at all or if it would have carried on its trend with a ventriloquist's dummy or a lettuce sitting there who knows.

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/images/2022/H2/September-23-2022-UK-Bond-Yields-Daily-2.png

Seems like nobody can really say anything at all based on that chart, looks like a steady trend with a bit of noise.
But people like you say "zomg the markets, we must get rid of Truss" because of a one-day blip which was dead on the trend-line anyway.
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uziq
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famous tanking is invisible? we effectively had a run on our pension funds that cost £62 billion in gilt issuances.

that's half the budget of running the entire NHS for a year.

the situation was going to get worse if the BoE didn't intervene.

said intervention, and the hike in interest rates, just added £100s of quid a month to people's mortgages. during a cost-of-living crisis. is that 'invisible' to you?

do you know what you are talking about?
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
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What was the 'run on pension funds'?

Seems more like financial shenanigans due to a market blip
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 … ment-bonds
https://www.ft.com/content/a58adfee-ed0 … cec1a8b8cb

The value of their investments dropped, they do go up and down, obviously the thing to do was remove the PM and put in Sunak - who can somehow reverse 20-30 year trends with a wave of his hand - because he's not Truss.
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uziq
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dilbert, truss's uncosted spending and tax cuts directly worsened people's lives. they now face higher mortgage repayments. it's not a 'blip', it's not a '30 year trend', it was a direct reaction of the market to her mini-budget. to state otherwise is just to recycle the tory PR spin that they put out to staunch the fatal bleeding as her political credibility evaporated.

that the reaction from the City and markets was so bad, when her policies seemed designed to personally enrich and benefit that tiny elite, is really saying something.

£65bn isn't pocket change, we are now facing years of reheated austerity to try and claw back the massive hole in the government finances. to minimise that and say that it's usual market weather is dumb.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
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Seems like it was coming anyway and has zero to do with Truss

https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/i.7BOCxDXo78/v2/pidjEfPlU1QWZop3vfGKsrX.ke8XuWirGYh1PKgEw44kE/1003x-1.png

https://news.sky.com/video/uk-economy-i … r-12707562

Neat trick though "The tide is coming in - only Sunak can save us"

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2022-10-23 05:19:51)

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unnamednewbie13
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Just looking at this chart alone, if those lines continue in a straight direction until interest rates are back at 2007 levels, inflation would be way off the display. There's probably limits to readable context that alone a chart can provide.

I wonder what catastrophic event kept unfolding between 2020 and (recently), hmm.
uziq
Member
+492|3452

Dilbert_X wrote:

Seems like it was coming anyway and has zero to do with Truss

https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/i.7BOCxDXo78/v2/pidjEfPlU1QWZop3vfGKsrX.ke8XuWirGYh1PKgEw44kE/1003x-1.png

https://news.sky.com/video/uk-economy-i … r-12707562

Neat trick though "The tide is coming in - only Sunak can save us"
yes, hikes in interest we were coming after a decade of low interest. we know this. especially with the fed's QT to cope with inflation.

but it's been the conservatives call to keep blaming the market on 'putin's war in ukraine' and pretend everything is exogenous in cause. it's really not.

the markets responded, and responded drastically, to the truss/kwarteng mini-budget. it wasn't just a round of 'tax cuts' that needed time to bed in. it was tax cuts PLUS about £100 billion of public spending. that's not a working economic policy according to any market orthodoxy. it's also the sort of reckless spending that the conservatives spend all their time accusing labour of. sheer insanity.

and, again, it's not like the public spending spree was actually on solid investments or things with future dividends. it was literally to bail out private energy companies and keep their executive bonuses/shareholder returns in good order. what a totally stupid thing to sink the economy for.

then there's all the shenanigans about refusing to let the office for budget responsibility audit their budget. why would the conservatives hush the OBR when it was their creation, supposedly to reign in profligate labour spending? that doesn't reassure the markets or central banks.

i have no idea why you have this particular weakspot for trussonomics and her zombie thatcherism. it's the basis of her strange hayek society worldview. you get angry about their undergraduate reading lists but driving the economy off a cliff is just an understandable 'blip' to be tolerated? did you hit your head or something?

Last edited by uziq (2022-10-23 07:17:44)

unnamednewbie13
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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
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Didn't May go through exactly the same thing?

Elected fair and square with a clear manifesto - tory old boys blocked her at every turn.

I'm not saying misogyny is a factor. Some people are saying it for sure, not me though, absolutely not. But a significant number are saying it.
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uziq
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dilbert, your abuse of very recent history and infelicities with the facts really are something.

'tory old boys' blocked may? the people who derailed the brexit process and shutdown may's (pretty moderate and reasonable, by all objective accounts) deal were the ERG. the ERG aren't old toffs and tory grandees: they're oiks and ideologues who have more in common with farage–banks and even steve bannon than anyone else. steve baker, mark francois, suella braverman et al are hardly the 'old boys club' from balliol college, oxford, with their port and sherry quaffing PPE dons in tow. the only person in that milieu who wants to seem like an 'old tory boy' is jacob rees-mogg, with his pantomime edwardian act, with an actual nanny in tow, which, along with his ludicrous tailoring, are merely the too loud protests of a parvenu.

the populists and 'voices of the peepul' that you spoke about so approvingly whilst they were derailing democracy and taking it down dark and depressing ethnonationalist dead-ends are the people who acted in bloc to frustrate may's negotiations. that plus total duds like david frost and david davis. a bunch of dullards not dyed-in-the-wool shires gentry. and almost none of them from the stereotypical eton/harrow->oxford pipeline that you decry every single day.

Last edited by uziq (2022-10-24 01:59:13)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
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Surely if the tory old boys had got on with it there'd have been enough of a majority to silence the eton/harrow->oxfordians like Rees-Mogg and Johnson.

Didn't Johnson scupper everything May did so that he could have another shot at the leadership?

At this point Britain looks like it will implode under the weight of its own stupidity and a tidal wave of Indians.
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uziq
Member
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johnson is an opportunist, to be sure, and a dangerously charismatic one at that (by the standards of the Sun-reading plebs, anyway).

Surely if the tory old boys had got on with it there'd have been enough of a majority to silence the eton/harrow->oxfordians like Rees-Mogg and Johnson.
johnson purged a huge number of MPs from the 'old boys' faction of traditional conservatives. did you forget that part? (supposedly) decent conservatives, by today's hysterical measure, anyway, like kenneth clarke and rory stewart, were all unceremoniously kicked out of the party they had served for decades for voting against johnson in the chamber. he could do so because he had an +80 seat majority.

but he wasn't responsible for making-over the tory party into UKIP lite via the electoral backdoor. that's the ERG. that is the nexus of the 'no deal brexit' crowd, in alliance with media moguls like murdoch and dacre who are actively against the british establishment and old boys network. murdoch wants to burn that all down, and dacre seemingly wants a peerage as much to sneer at the people who look down on him as anything else.

and talk about anti-democratic. after years of being beholden to this fringe group of semi-literates and post-empire fantasists – recall mark francois, graduate of king's college london's war studies course, and his endless, laughable 'we'll fight them on the beaches all over again, bruv' rhetoric – after years of their idiocy, we still don't even know their actual membership. they're employed by the british people to be their parliamentary representatives, they make use of parliamentary premises for their gatherings, and they have closed-doors affairs and won't even release who is in attendance! a sub-party within a party who have been taking their cues from rich paymasters in the City. that's anti-democratic.



really scraping the barrel of human intelligence with this lot.

Last edited by uziq (2022-10-24 02:16:26)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
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I would purge them all and install some people with an actual education and a stake in the country.

Heinlein was right, we should fire people out of tubes to determine if they're worthy to be ciitizens.
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