Why should they be put in the same boat as thieves, frauds and Oxford graduates?uziq wrote:
that involves your 'blameless engineering guru inventor who took risks and now deserves to be rewarded'.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
sigh. read up. any class that engages in inventive book-keeping and hires top-class actuarial/consultancy services in order to minimize their tax burdens to effectively below the 20% basic rate that all working-class and middle-class people inescapably are forced to pay ... then, yes, tax the rich.
is there any clearer demonstration of piketty's thesis about the inequality driven by assets vs. labour than the 'capital gains' loopholes? workers slaving away for 50-60hrs a week and paying one-quarter of their taxable incomes to the state pay effectively less tax than their bosses, who in the first place are on 10x or 15x or 50x their income, some ridiculous multiplier that didn't exist in the workplace until the last generation or two, and who utilise their capital gains to pay as little as 10%? and time and time again you come to the defense of the class to which you don't belong: 'it's punishing risk-taking and innovation!'.
and this is precisely my point: it's the entire class of the top 10% of earners who are engaged in these financial practices. it's 'good practice' for them: you'd practically have to be stupid not to take advantage of the loopholes. the system is set-up for their enrichment; the winner takes it all. you making it about 'thieves, frauds' versus 'engineers' is just your usual marvel universe, idiot child morality. it's not only evil people and outright crooks who evade taxes. it's fucking endemic.
but, whilst we're reminding you of the commonalities between multimillionaire 'frauds' and 'engineers':
https://www.lrb.co.uk/podcasts-and-vide … man-frauds
people will die this winter because of these increased costs. pensioners who worked all their lives. working-people will make choices between heating and eating. loan schemes are being promoted to help with the cost of groceries. people in full-time, gainful employment ... taking loans ... to pay for their basic sustenance. and here you are with endless 'what ifs?' and special pleading for the super-rich. as if we are condoning seizing the wealth of all inventor guru engineering geniuses and running the state like soviets. please, get a fucking grip. it's casuistry on your part, plain and simple.
is there any clearer demonstration of piketty's thesis about the inequality driven by assets vs. labour than the 'capital gains' loopholes? workers slaving away for 50-60hrs a week and paying one-quarter of their taxable incomes to the state pay effectively less tax than their bosses, who in the first place are on 10x or 15x or 50x their income, some ridiculous multiplier that didn't exist in the workplace until the last generation or two, and who utilise their capital gains to pay as little as 10%? and time and time again you come to the defense of the class to which you don't belong: 'it's punishing risk-taking and innovation!'.
and this is precisely my point: it's the entire class of the top 10% of earners who are engaged in these financial practices. it's 'good practice' for them: you'd practically have to be stupid not to take advantage of the loopholes. the system is set-up for their enrichment; the winner takes it all. you making it about 'thieves, frauds' versus 'engineers' is just your usual marvel universe, idiot child morality. it's not only evil people and outright crooks who evade taxes. it's fucking endemic.
but, whilst we're reminding you of the commonalities between multimillionaire 'frauds' and 'engineers':
https://www.lrb.co.uk/podcasts-and-vide … man-frauds
people will die this winter because of these increased costs. pensioners who worked all their lives. working-people will make choices between heating and eating. loan schemes are being promoted to help with the cost of groceries. people in full-time, gainful employment ... taking loans ... to pay for their basic sustenance. and here you are with endless 'what ifs?' and special pleading for the super-rich. as if we are condoning seizing the wealth of all inventor guru engineering geniuses and running the state like soviets. please, get a fucking grip. it's casuistry on your part, plain and simple.
Last edited by uziq (2022-08-17 08:53:03)
that's because historically, as a specific formation of post-neoliberal economies, major corporations and individuals have been engaged in mass, widespread, systemic offshoring of profits rather than reinvestment or paying taxes. there have been several good synoptic studies posted on this recently in the academic literature, for e.g.Dilbert_X wrote:
Historically the argument has been about raising the top rate of tax, but now tax evasion is extreme.uziq wrote:
when people say 'tax the rich' they almost always mean 'close tax loopholes and make them pay their fair share'. that's absolutely part of the programme. it's not all about arbitrarily rising % numbers ... when the fucking loopholes and systems of evasion are left intact. what would be the bloody point?
Pretty hard to raise fair windfall taxes too.
It would be easier to claw back all the money defrauded and gifted during covid.
like with privatising public utilities, we are only now seeing the effects of a 30–40 year continued process.
we're now at a point where inequality is the greatest it has been in almost a century, and ditto the wealth is concentrated in the hands of very few, escaping national tax systems and being parked in opaque offshore arrangements. this was by design; it's the system that needs fundamental change, not a tweaking of income rates. we're way past that illusion now.
windfall taxes are 'unfair'? motherfucker ... we just paid billions out to these companies in subsidies and bailouts to help them with their cash flow and business during shocks like covid/ukraine! now that the same industries are posting bumper profits on the recovery curve, you think it's 'unfair' to mention windfall taxes? lmao you couldn't make this shit up.Pretty hard to raise fair windfall taxes too.
i'll tell you what's 'unfair': subsidies and bailouts for privately owned industries, using taxpayer's contributions to ensure the bonuses and dividends of a tiny number of private speculators who want to be immune from risk. who then turn around and overcharge said taxpayer into the ground, wiping out their household savings and forcing them into food/fuel poverty. THAT's 'unfair'.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles … lks-run-on
2021: U.K. energy companies are seeking a massive government bailout as a surge in gas and electricity prices threatens to push suppliers out of business.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende … -increase/
2022: UK Big Six energy firms made more than £1bn in profit ahead of price hike
hard to raise fair windfall taxes
this is exactly the name of the game now: run for bailouts and depend on the state when the market behaves adversely or actually produces risks. take bailouts ... and post record profits and dividends to shareholders when the same markets rebound to favourable trading conditions. is this your 'capitalist investor' reality? seems to me like they aren't 'risk takers being rewarded' but risk evaders relying on state socialism.
Last edited by uziq (2022-08-17 07:29:44)
goodness.
"Ukrainians aren't fighting us, it's all mercenaries from abroad.""Do you think we can live in peace with Ukraine?"
"I think yes. All we have to do is destroy those Nazis. There are probably some left over from World War Two."
This video is supposed to make Russia look better?
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2022-08-17 10:13:57)
this from 2017:
https://twitter.com/aydindikerdem/statu … cv6uSZX2ww
https://twitter.com/aydindikerdem/statu … cv6uSZX2ww
oh dear! you can quote dilbert verbatim explaining to KJ or myself that ‘this is capitalism’.Damien Green was paid £148 an hour as a non exec director of South East Water while he was still an MP. This creep tells John McDonnell ‘the problem is you don’t understand capitalism’. The problem is he does.
Last edited by uziq (2022-08-17 10:31:36)
What are the people doing about it?uziq wrote:
that's because historically, as a specific formation of post-neoliberal economies, major corporations and individuals have been engaged in mass, widespread, systemic offshoring of profits rather than reinvestment or paying taxes. there have been several good synoptic studies posted on this recently in the academic literature, for e.g.Dilbert_X wrote:
Historically the argument has been about raising the top rate of tax, but now tax evasion is extreme.uziq wrote:
when people say 'tax the rich' they almost always mean 'close tax loopholes and make them pay their fair share'. that's absolutely part of the programme. it's not all about arbitrarily rising % numbers ... when the fucking loopholes and systems of evasion are left intact. what would be the bloody point?
Pretty hard to raise fair windfall taxes too.
It would be easier to claw back all the money defrauded and gifted during covid.
like with privatising public utilities, we are only now seeing the effects of a 30–40 year continued process.
we're now at a point where inequality is the greatest it has been in almost a century, and ditto the wealth is concentrated in the hands of very few, escaping national tax systems and being parked in opaque offshore arrangements. this was by design; it's the system that needs fundamental change, not a tweaking of income rates. we're way past that illusion now.windfall taxes are 'unfair'? motherfucker ... we just paid billions out to these companies in subsidies and bailouts to help them with their cash flow and business during shocks like covid/ukraine! now that the same industries are posting bumper profits on the recovery curve, you think it's 'unfair' to mention windfall taxes? lmao you couldn't make this shit up.Pretty hard to raise fair windfall taxes too.
i'll tell you what's 'unfair': subsidies and bailouts for privately owned industries, using taxpayer's contributions to ensure the bonuses and dividends of a tiny number of private speculators who want to be immune from risk. who then turn around and overcharge said taxpayer into the ground, wiping out their household savings and forcing them into food/fuel poverty. THAT's 'unfair'.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles … lks-run-on
2021: U.K. energy companies are seeking a massive government bailout as a surge in gas and electricity prices threatens to push suppliers out of business.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opende … -increase/
2022: UK Big Six energy firms made more than £1bn in profit ahead of price hikehard to raise fair windfall taxes
this is exactly the name of the game now: run for bailouts and depend on the state when the market behaves adversely or actually produces risks. take bailouts ... and post record profits and dividends to shareholders when the same markets rebound to favourable trading conditions. is this your 'capitalist investor' reality? seems to me like they aren't 'risk takers being rewarded' but risk evaders relying on state socialism.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
What are you doing about it? Surfing on exploitative, windfall fossil fuel profits it seems like in the same breath you use to badger people about how pro-environmentally "vegetarian" you are. Where's your room to talk?
Companies are going to pay out dividends, it might as well be to me as anyone else.
Its not as if its new investment, I don't do IPOs.
Its not as if its new investment, I don't do IPOs.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
striking, forming and joining unions, writing to their MPs, joining movements to suspend their direct debits and not pay.Dilbert_X wrote:
What are the people doing about it?
why are you pretending that people are paralysed by inaction and mere whiners? the only person who sits in an armchair ptooh'ing everything is you, you fucking muppet.
Thank you but I've been in a union, been on strike, attended protests, written to my MP, had documents tabled in parliament, etc.
That and brought down various govt officials, put people on prison, kept people out of prison, other fun stuff.
What have you actually done besides sit in your flat clacking away on your MacBook?
That and brought down various govt officials, put people on prison, kept people out of prison, other fun stuff.
What have you actually done besides sit in your flat clacking away on your MacBook?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
lmao brought down government officials. here we go again. the james bond stuff. literally no one gives a fuck what legal travails your family went through or whatever walter mitty reasons you invent for being a loser living at home in your parents 'exile'.
thankfully i don't need to be in a union, but i've written letters to MPs/council, achieved things in the community, been on protest strikes, etc, too. you know, ordinary civic participation. i actually wrote my first letter to the council/local MP when i was about 13, and helped organize a body that put together a new park/skate park for my local area. so take that, braggart !!!
i'm here talking about an issue that is afflicting 40% of the poorest households in the country. i am not particularly affected by it, and i have no personal and emotive stake in it. i just think it's an outrage and something needs to change for the country. you ... want to bitch and belch at every sensical post i make, and evidently turn it into a personal pissing contest. 'i protested once better than you! nur nurr!' well fucking done mate ... ? grow up?
thankfully i don't need to be in a union, but i've written letters to MPs/council, achieved things in the community, been on protest strikes, etc, too. you know, ordinary civic participation. i actually wrote my first letter to the council/local MP when i was about 13, and helped organize a body that put together a new park/skate park for my local area. so take that, braggart !!!
i'm here talking about an issue that is afflicting 40% of the poorest households in the country. i am not particularly affected by it, and i have no personal and emotive stake in it. i just think it's an outrage and something needs to change for the country. you ... want to bitch and belch at every sensical post i make, and evidently turn it into a personal pissing contest. 'i protested once better than you! nur nurr!' well fucking done mate ... ? grow up?
You've accused me of doing nothing, I've done plenty.
What is a 'protest strike'? I bet you weren't on strike yourself.
Apart from campaigning for a skate park, presumably for your own use, what have you actually done?
What is a 'protest strike'? I bet you weren't on strike yourself.
Apart from campaigning for a skate park, presumably for your own use, what have you actually done?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
i never accused you of doing nothing in your life: i said that you have a very conspicuous propensity to respond as a 'devil's advocate', repeatedly, against your own class interests, and to poke the smallest and most sophistical holes in arguments for things like a wealth/windfall tax, or a better and more equitable arrangement of society. you constantly come to these threads to just moan, or, failing that, to post meme photos from facebook whilst elaborating no actual position yourself.
i have accused you of being morally compromised by the fact you act all high-falutin' about the environment and people's 'silly' politics, whilst you yourself act with zero political convictions whatsoever and seemingly engage with things with a maximum of cynicism.
lmao ... it's like your reaction to every solid political point i make is to say 'well, what are you doing about it? i did a protest once'. as if by pointing to a very real problem i'm somehow making you 'lose' a point in an argument. or if i elucidate on the horrific crisis facing working people, all you have in response is, 'well, why do they vote tory?' is this how you really do political commentary dilbert? it's not good. really not very good. if you did a humanities degree you'd realize that's the start of an analysis or critique, not the final rebuttal. your desire to shut down discussions as if your own precious ego is at stake is very, very bizarre.
selfless, charitable dilbert. the petroleum profiteer. he just sacrifices so much for the greater good!
i have accused you of being morally compromised by the fact you act all high-falutin' about the environment and people's 'silly' politics, whilst you yourself act with zero political convictions whatsoever and seemingly engage with things with a maximum of cynicism.
lmao ... it's like your reaction to every solid political point i make is to say 'well, what are you doing about it? i did a protest once'. as if by pointing to a very real problem i'm somehow making you 'lose' a point in an argument. or if i elucidate on the horrific crisis facing working people, all you have in response is, 'well, why do they vote tory?' is this how you really do political commentary dilbert? it's not good. really not very good. if you did a humanities degree you'd realize that's the start of an analysis or critique, not the final rebuttal. your desire to shut down discussions as if your own precious ego is at stake is very, very bizarre.
the student tuition fees had a proposed 3x hike during my time as a student. of course we protested that. it wouldn't have affected me in any way; i was already a third-year on my way to graduating with my own student finances already in the ledger book.What is a 'protest strike'? I bet you weren't on strike yourself.
shock, horror, the 13-year-old teenager wanted something for him and his friends to use! believe it or not, i was capable of foreseeing that a new park area would be of more lasting benefit to the community beyond my own next few school holidays. how do you think i helped to persuade and convince the local council to spare the lucre? moron.Apart from campaigning for a skate park, presumably for your own use
selfless, charitable dilbert. the petroleum profiteer. he just sacrifices so much for the greater good!
Last edited by uziq (2022-08-17 18:16:45)
Unionizing efforts, labor protests, voting.
A Swedish girl in her mid-teens ruffled the feathers of anti-environmentalist politicians and newscasters halfway across the world.
oil-can dilbert: "what are people doing about it?"
also oil-can dilbert: "why shouldn't I be part of the problem?"
A Swedish girl in her mid-teens ruffled the feathers of anti-environmentalist politicians and newscasters halfway across the world.
oil-can dilbert: "what are people doing about it?"
also oil-can dilbert: "why shouldn't I be part of the problem?"
OK, so it wasn't really a 'strike', more a fun afternoon out.uziq wrote:
the student tuition fees had a proposed 3x hike during my time as a student. of course we protested that. it wouldn't have affected me in any way; i was already a third-year on my way to graduating with my own student finances already in the ledger book.
You got yourself a skate park, well done.shock, horror, the 13-year-old teenager wanted something for him and his friends to use! believe it or not, i was capable of foreseeing that a new park area would be of more lasting benefit to the community beyond my own next few school holidays. how do you think i helped to persuade and convince the local council to spare the lucre? moron.
I helped keep this guy out of prison, and got the DPP fired.selfless, charitable dilbert. the petroleum profiteer. he just sacrifices so much for the greater good!
He hanged himself in the end, there you go.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl … 541437.stm
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2022-08-17 18:52:38)
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
OK, yes, your protesting of the iraq war was practically a 3-week hunger strike and a barefoot walk to santiago de compostela.
once again: NO ONE GIVES A FUCK, DILBERT. lmao jesus christ.
we are trying to discuss things that affect 40% of the british population and you want to make it into a pissing contest about your charitable good works and how nobody else can possibly complain or make a political critique until they've ... what? ... helped get some guy off the leash with the police in 1995? what the fuck is wrong with you, lmao. i swear you are on the spectrum.
once again: NO ONE GIVES A FUCK, DILBERT. lmao jesus christ.
we are trying to discuss things that affect 40% of the british population and you want to make it into a pissing contest about your charitable good works and how nobody else can possibly complain or make a political critique until they've ... what? ... helped get some guy off the leash with the police in 1995? what the fuck is wrong with you, lmao. i swear you are on the spectrum.
Last edited by uziq (2022-08-17 19:08:49)
You keep saying I have done nothing, it is you who has done nothing and does nothing.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
jesus christ you actual pillock, i didn't mean you hadn't done anything public-minded in your entire life. i said you are contributing nothing to this discussion except kvetching and casuitry. i said that you adopt spurious political positions on these matters and act the lickspittle, in a way that is very hard to fathom. seriously WHAT is fucking wrong with you, good god.
me: there is a cost-of-living crisis that is going to create a giga-recession if it is not addressed with drastic measures v. soon.
dilbert: what have you ever done? qualify your statement that you 'got a skatepark' in 2003. ah, is that all? i donated a bench once.
me: there is a cost-of-living crisis that is going to create a giga-recession if it is not addressed with drastic measures v. soon.
dilbert: what have you ever done? qualify your statement that you 'got a skatepark' in 2003. ah, is that all? i donated a bench once.
Last edited by uziq (2022-08-17 19:12:26)
Really the UK is returning to the normal state of affairs - for the UK in history and for most of the world now - ie a hand to mouth existence with inadequate food, heat etc.
The bottom line is Britain has too many people, too few resources and too few people doing anything useful to be able to sustain itself.
You can gripe all you like and move money from here to there but these are structural problems which have been decades in the making and there's no simple solution.
The bottom line is Britain has too many people, too few resources and too few people doing anything useful to be able to sustain itself.
You can gripe all you like and move money from here to there but these are structural problems which have been decades in the making and there's no simple solution.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
that is not political analysis, dilbert. 'britain is returning to the stone age, it's the norm if you look through human history'.
'there are too many people'.
imagine how much time you spaff up the wall on this forum when you could be reading and actually not looking like a fucking idiot.
'there are too many people'.
imagine how much time you spaff up the wall on this forum when you could be reading and actually not looking like a fucking idiot.
Your plan seems to "lets spend all our money on food and heating"
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
what if i told you ... several of our neighbouring states ... have also been through the process of climbing down from empire in the 20th century ... have also been through varying degrees of deindustrialization and financialization ... and aren't up shit creek without a paddle like the UK is? make u think, doesn't it.
your conception of the field of politics is inane. as soon as things get bad, out the window goes analysis or rational thinking, and in comes some vague ahistorical rubbish about 'the decline of civilizations' or 'so it goes'. well done! you get a D for this assignment.
my 'plan' is to renationalise the utilities and to treat them as public goods, for what they really are. my 'plan' is to tax the rich. it seems that the majority of my compatriots agree with me on these issues – where, before, your first instinct was to mock at me for even mentioning union action or public ownership. i thought you understood the 'zeitgeist' and 'the peeepul', dilbert?
your conception of the field of politics is inane. as soon as things get bad, out the window goes analysis or rational thinking, and in comes some vague ahistorical rubbish about 'the decline of civilizations' or 'so it goes'. well done! you get a D for this assignment.
my 'plan' is to renationalise the utilities and to treat them as public goods, for what they really are. my 'plan' is to tax the rich. it seems that the majority of my compatriots agree with me on these issues – where, before, your first instinct was to mock at me for even mentioning union action or public ownership. i thought you understood the 'zeitgeist' and 'the peeepul', dilbert?
Last edited by uziq (2022-08-17 20:12:02)
OK, so you've got all your unproductive tax and spend policies mapped out.
All you need now is for the people to vote for a politician capable of delivering.
Anything else?
All you need now is for the people to vote for a politician capable of delivering.
Anything else?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
lol. i love how smug you are when your approach to all these things is 'the world is doomed, hey-ho, let's watch it burn and moan about it on a forum for 1/2 of my waking hours. oh and to make bucks from my petrol stonks'.
it's amazing how quickly the overton window has moved in the UK now that the huge distraction campaign of brexshit is over. all of a sudden people are talking about things that were part of corbyn's manifesto programme with deadly seriousness. (fwiw i think it's more likely to be delivered electorally by a coalition involving greens/lib dems; labour itself is out in the wilderness and utterly hopeless with their avowed official policy of 'wotever corbyn was, we're not').
only a few months ago breakfast tv hosts and pundits were accusing the union leaders of 'selfishness' and 'disrupting innocent people's lives'. fast forward 6 weeks and you've got the same talking heads on television berating politicians and speaking to ministers with something less than respect for the ruling class's amour propre.
it's amazing how quickly the overton window has moved in the UK now that the huge distraction campaign of brexshit is over. all of a sudden people are talking about things that were part of corbyn's manifesto programme with deadly seriousness. (fwiw i think it's more likely to be delivered electorally by a coalition involving greens/lib dems; labour itself is out in the wilderness and utterly hopeless with their avowed official policy of 'wotever corbyn was, we're not').
only a few months ago breakfast tv hosts and pundits were accusing the union leaders of 'selfishness' and 'disrupting innocent people's lives'. fast forward 6 weeks and you've got the same talking heads on television berating politicians and speaking to ministers with something less than respect for the ruling class's amour propre.
Last edited by uziq (2022-08-17 21:06:10)
Still need an actual plan more detailed than "lets give everyone a 10% pay rise"
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!