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Stubbee
Religions Hate Facts, Questions and Doubts
+223|5863|Reality
there is a discussion to be had on infrastructure...

what about ensuring the quality of foods and medicines?
The US economy is a giant Ponzi scheme. And 'to big to fail' is code speak for 'niahnahniahniahnah 99 percenters'
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4477|London, England
Answer your own question. How old is the FDA and USDA? Humans survived just fine for millions of years brfore the agencies were invented.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Stubbee
Religions Hate Facts, Questions and Doubts
+223|5863|Reality
do we want survival or flourishing?

sounds like you want to be amish or something. Roll back the clock to 'better' times.
The US economy is a giant Ponzi scheme. And 'to big to fail' is code speak for 'niahnahniahniahnah 99 percenters'
Steve-0
Karma limited. Contact Admin to Be Promoted.
+214|3079|SL,UT

vanilla ice has a show where he's learning how the amish do woodworking. from what i've seen, the amish have less stress than everyone else.

they also don't have electricity, or a forum.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,268|5836

Stubbee wrote:

do we want survival or flourishing?

sounds like you want to be amish or something. Roll back the clock to 'better' times.
people were living it really good for thousands of years amirite, when the average lifespan is 30.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
coke
Aye up duck!
+440|5828|England. Stoke

Jay wrote:

Answer your own question. How old is the FDA and USDA? Humans survived just fine for millions of years brfore the agencies were invented.

Gets funnier every day.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4477|London, England

Stubbee wrote:

do we want survival or flourishing?

sounds like you want to be amish or something. Roll back the clock to 'better' times.
Flourishing? Why do you think a government agency helps you flourish? What exactly do you think the FDA and USDA do? People still get food poisoning every day. There are still mass outbreaks of e.coli infestation in food. There are still tonics being peddled by quacks. You and I pay taxes to support those agencies in order to provide ourselves with the illusion of safety. Nothing has changed since the days before they were formed. You still have to be careful with your food. You still have to cook your food. The drugs you ingest still have massive side effects. Just like with the TSA and NSA, you're not any safer.

Last edited by Jay (2013-10-26 10:53:39)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4477|London, England

coke wrote:

Jay wrote:

Answer your own question. How old is the FDA and USDA? Humans survived just fine for millions of years brfore the agencies were invented.

Gets funnier every day.
What does?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Cheeky_Ninja06
Member
+52|5852|Cambridge, England
Sorry what.

Lets make an effort to stay on topic, we do not need to disband the government to have a bit more transparency on issues that are not security critical.

Guardian are somewhat upset that the government came and supervised the destruction of hardware, even though the information was copied elsewhere and are now running lots of snowden stories

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013 … et-snowden

The UK intelligence agency GCHQ has repeatedly warned it fears a "damaging public debate" on the scale of its activities because it could lead to legal challenges against its mass-surveillance programmes, classified internal documents reveal.

• GCHQ lobbied furiously to keep secret the fact that telecoms firms had gone "well beyond" what they were legally required to do to help intelligence agencies' mass interception of communications, both in the UK and overseas.

• GCHQ feared a legal challenge under the right to privacy in the Human Rights Act if evidence of its surveillance methods became admissible in court.

• GCHQ assisted the Home Office in lining up sympathetic people to help with "press handling", including the Liberal Democrat peer and former intelligence services commissioner Lord Carlile, who this week criticised the Guardian for its coverage of mass surveillance by GCHQ and America's National Security Agency.
Im sorry but this is wrong, the government should not be covering up things because they might be illegal. Either they are critical things that need to happen and the law should be changed accordingly, or they shouldn't be done. Its that simple.
BVC
Member
+325|5815
Morally dubious spy law stuff seems to be a common theme across anglosphere nations (read: commonwealth whities+USA) over the past couple of years.
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+767|5804|United States of America
Jay, I guarantee you'd be saying the opposite if we didn't have the USDA or FDA. It's nonsense to claim we don't need them when you reap all the benefits they provide and then say "Look, no diseases! We don't need 'em!" People will send food back if someone loses a hair through the hairnet, and you think sourcing untraceable, unknown-quality meat is kosher? (PUN!!!) Just because you can cook disease-ridden meat to look like the clean kind doesn't mean it's not disgusting and unsafe.

Not to mention the other important letter in FDA. Go to a GMP facility and ask what an FDA audit is like. It's their job to be sticklers over issues like safety, traceability, and quality of drugs. When you're dealing with life-or-death medicines or things you inject into your goddamn bloodstream, it's incredibly important to be well-regulated (and not in the 2nd Amendment sense of a "well-regulated militia" , I mean actually regulated).
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4477|London, England

DesertFox- wrote:

Jay, I guarantee you'd be saying the opposite if we didn't have the USDA or FDA. It's nonsense to claim we don't need them when you reap all the benefits they provide and then say "Look, no diseases! We don't need 'em!" People will send food back if someone loses a hair through the hairnet, and you think sourcing untraceable, unknown-quality meat is kosher? (PUN!!!) Just because you can cook disease-ridden meat to look like the clean kind doesn't mean it's not disgusting and unsafe.

Not to mention the other important letter in FDA. Go to a GMP facility and ask what an FDA audit is like. It's their job to be sticklers over issues like safety, traceability, and quality of drugs. When you're dealing with life-or-death medicines or things you inject into your goddamn bloodstream, it's incredibly important to be well-regulated (and not in the 2nd Amendment sense of a "well-regulated militia" , I mean actually regulated).
Have you ever bought food from a roadside stand? What about from a farmer's market? Did you get sick? I've bought food from them many times, all of which is uninspected and unregulated. Guess what? Never got sick. I washed the veggies I bought just like I wash the veggies I buy from the supermarket. I cooked the meat, and I put the cheese in the refrigerator. I trusted the farmer or seller to not shit on my food and give me e.coli poisoning.

The USDA and FDA largely do nothing. Only a tiny fraction of all food is ever tested before it reaches the market. Their primary role is not preventative, but reactive after people have already gotten sick. They'll do an investigation and try to find and fine the source. It really requires a full time agency to do police work

What has made people less likely to get sick over the past century has got nothing to do with the government and everything to do with SURPRISE! Refrigeration, and a ton of research conducted by the industry in getting food to distant markets without losing a ton of money to food spoilage. It ain't the FDA and USDA keeping you safe, it's in the best interest of the food industry to provide you with healthy food.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4477|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

Engineering is largely self regulated. ASHRAE, ANSI and ASME write most of the codes and then they're adopted by the city. The codes are based on experience with best practices and experimentation. What I can do within the confines of those regs is fairly infinite.
So you agree its a tightly regulated closed shop? Thanks. And it wouldn't exist if the govt didn't give the various institutions monopoly power.
It's voluntary. I joined a profession that has standards, yes. Is that really so different from the cashier industry who have learned over time it's better to take peoples money and give them change before handing them over the goods that they purchased? In my case it cuts down on death, in their case it cuts down on shoplifting.
Should anyone who wants be allowed to design and build whatever they want? No. Why? Because the people having thd building built don't live or work in it for the most part. If it falls down and people die, or people get sick they can just declare bankruptcy when sued. If there were real consequences I might feel differently.

Libertarianism doesn't mean anarchy. It means the govrrnments role should be limited to its core roles of defense and justice,
And building codes apparently, because that suits the protection racket you're personally benefitting from.
Protection racket? Am I holding anyone hostage? Lol. People build homes all the time without needing an engineer. They rarely fall down. Contractors are generally very capable people who do their job just fine, but a lot of them try to cut corners or substitute second rate equipment in order to eek out more profit. It's my job to provide my clients with expertise so they don't get shafted by crap like that. It's not the government that forces people to use my services in most cases, it's wording built into legal contracts between owners and builders voluntarily that keeps me in business. I provide a service they deem worthy of payment.

Have you ever gone outside of scope at work? Problems tend to snowball and budgets balloon out of control. The government's scope began snowballing the moment progressives took power and tried to fix social issues. Let's fix housing. Oh people are still poor lets give them healthcare. Oh costs are ballooning let's limit their soda intake etc. Core problems not touched, and expensive treatments for symptoms. Bollocks. Narrow the scope and do a good job within those confines.
Most countries manage it just fine. Yours can't because the citizens are lazier, greedier and more selfish than the average.
Nah. Just about every country in the world is dealing with crushing debt issues right now. Socialism isn't sustainable. Sorry kid.
Answer your own question. How old is the FDA and USDA? Humans survived just fine for millions of years brfore the agencies were invented.
Yes, the world was a better place when infant mortality was >50%, typical life expectancy was <30 and anyone could sell potions and foodstuffs with no checks or supervision.
What the world needs it more of this http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/home-cook-fin … 1e57p.html

"It is important to alert [people] conducting food businesses, including part-time food businesses associated with community activities, that the requirements of the Food Act 2003 and the standards set by the Food Standards Code must be complied with,"
Thats communism right there, gardum gubmint telling people they can't poison people.
Yeah ok.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+767|5804|United States of America

Jay wrote:

DesertFox- wrote:

Jay, I guarantee you'd be saying the opposite if we didn't have the USDA or FDA. It's nonsense to claim we don't need them when you reap all the benefits they provide and then say "Look, no diseases! We don't need 'em!" People will send food back if someone loses a hair through the hairnet, and you think sourcing untraceable, unknown-quality meat is kosher? (PUN!!!) Just because you can cook disease-ridden meat to look like the clean kind doesn't mean it's not disgusting and unsafe.

Not to mention the other important letter in FDA. Go to a GMP facility and ask what an FDA audit is like. It's their job to be sticklers over issues like safety, traceability, and quality of drugs. When you're dealing with life-or-death medicines or things you inject into your goddamn bloodstream, it's incredibly important to be well-regulated (and not in the 2nd Amendment sense of a "well-regulated militia" , I mean actually regulated).
Have you ever bought food from a roadside stand? What about from a farmer's market? Did you get sick? I've bought food from them many times, all of which is uninspected and unregulated. Guess what? Never got sick. I washed the veggies I bought just like I wash the veggies I buy from the supermarket. I cooked the meat, and I put the cheese in the refrigerator. I trusted the farmer or seller to not shit on my food and give me e.coli poisoning.

The USDA and FDA largely do nothing. Only a tiny fraction of all food is ever tested before it reaches the market. Their primary role is not preventative, but reactive after people have already gotten sick. They'll do an investigation and try to find and fine the source. It really requires a full time agency to do police work

What has made people less likely to get sick over the past century has got nothing to do with the government and everything to do with SURPRISE! Refrigeration, and a ton of research conducted by the industry in getting food to distant markets without losing a ton of money to food spoilage. It ain't the FDA and USDA keeping you safe, it's in the best interest of the food industry to provide you with healthy food.
You mean the food grown by farmers who almost certainly bought them from someone like Monsanto? No one is saying not to take the common sense steps like storing food appropriately (interestingly, they have regulations for stuff like that before you even have the opportunity to buy it, too) or cooking it thoroughly. It's not to guard against vindictive persons pissing in your Cheerios, either. It's to maintain a high standard of quality.

Of course not everything is going to be tested, but that's why you use a statistical sampling method to get a decent picture of it. You'll hopefully find major issues before they get out, and with all the regulation, will have a useful way to trace any issues that do get past you. They're not agents of the government looking to shakedown businesses, they're working for the consumer to make sure they're getting food that's edible.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4477|London, England

DesertFox- wrote:

Jay wrote:

DesertFox- wrote:

Jay, I guarantee you'd be saying the opposite if we didn't have the USDA or FDA. It's nonsense to claim we don't need them when you reap all the benefits they provide and then say "Look, no diseases! We don't need 'em!" People will send food back if someone loses a hair through the hairnet, and you think sourcing untraceable, unknown-quality meat is kosher? (PUN!!!) Just because you can cook disease-ridden meat to look like the clean kind doesn't mean it's not disgusting and unsafe.

Not to mention the other important letter in FDA. Go to a GMP facility and ask what an FDA audit is like. It's their job to be sticklers over issues like safety, traceability, and quality of drugs. When you're dealing with life-or-death medicines or things you inject into your goddamn bloodstream, it's incredibly important to be well-regulated (and not in the 2nd Amendment sense of a "well-regulated militia" , I mean actually regulated).
Have you ever bought food from a roadside stand? What about from a farmer's market? Did you get sick? I've bought food from them many times, all of which is uninspected and unregulated. Guess what? Never got sick. I washed the veggies I bought just like I wash the veggies I buy from the supermarket. I cooked the meat, and I put the cheese in the refrigerator. I trusted the farmer or seller to not shit on my food and give me e.coli poisoning.

The USDA and FDA largely do nothing. Only a tiny fraction of all food is ever tested before it reaches the market. Their primary role is not preventative, but reactive after people have already gotten sick. They'll do an investigation and try to find and fine the source. It really requires a full time agency to do police work

What has made people less likely to get sick over the past century has got nothing to do with the government and everything to do with SURPRISE! Refrigeration, and a ton of research conducted by the industry in getting food to distant markets without losing a ton of money to food spoilage. It ain't the FDA and USDA keeping you safe, it's in the best interest of the food industry to provide you with healthy food.
You mean the food grown by farmers who almost certainly bought them from someone like Monsanto? No one is saying not to take the common sense steps like storing food appropriately (interestingly, they have regulations for stuff like that before you even have the opportunity to buy it, too) or cooking it thoroughly. It's not to guard against vindictive persons pissing in your Cheerios, either. It's to maintain a high standard of quality.

Of course not everything is going to be tested, but that's why you use a statistical sampling method to get a decent picture of it. You'll hopefully find major issues before they get out, and with all the regulation, will have a useful way to trace any issues that do get past you. They're not agents of the government looking to shakedown businesses, they're working for the consumer to make sure they're getting food that's edible.
Illusion of safety. Unnecessary.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4477|London, England
In fact, I'll say that the false sense of security government agencies like these provide is far worse than any realized benefit. People take more risks because they believe the government has thoroughly tested everything even though it hasn't and couldn't.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+767|5804|United States of America
Illusion != actual safety you never notice because your products are covered by it one way or another

You've never even been exposed to the risks they protect you from.

Similarly, I've never been the victim of a crime, but I don't go on about how we don't need police.

Last edited by DesertFox- (2013-10-27 09:26:09)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4477|London, England

DesertFox- wrote:

Illusion != actual safety you never notice because your products are covered by it one way or another

You've never even been exposed to the risks they protect you from.

Similarly, I've never been the victim of a crime, but I don't go on about how we don't need police.
I think you, like most people, have a very different picture of what these agencies do versus reality. You wouldn't be any more at risk if they didn't exist. Your food is safe whether it's grown on a large or a small farm, or if it's cooked in a restaurant or by your mom.

Are you safer because the TSA takes naked pictures of your grandma when she tries to fly?

Last edited by Jay (2013-10-27 10:03:41)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4477|London, England
Jaekus, I'm glad you haven't contributed anything more to the conversation than karma insults. I know your tiny little brain is completely dependent on your government to protect you from yourself. Stick to slappin da bass.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|5801|Disaster Free Zone

Jay wrote:

It ain't the FDA and USDA keeping you safe, it's in the best interest of the food industry to provide you with healthy food.
Just like it's in the best interest of tobacco companies to provide healthy cigarettes.

If it wasn't for these kinds of agencies you would be eating foods with high levels of heavy metals, food coulourings whos main component was lead, mercury or arsenic, marine life farmed and fished from contaminated areas, livestock pumped full of steroids and growth hormones and vegetables covered in deadly insecticides.

Packaged goods would not be required to label allergy warnings or even the correct ingredients and frankly in todays society which is so removed from the source of your food, I would like to have some assurances that what I'm buying is a) what it claims to be and b) Not going to kill me.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4477|London, England

DrunkFace wrote:

Jay wrote:

It ain't the FDA and USDA keeping you safe, it's in the best interest of the food industry to provide you with healthy food.
Just like it's in the best interest of tobacco companies to provide healthy cigarettes.

If it wasn't for these kinds of agencies you would be eating foods with high levels of heavy metals, food coulourings whos main component was lead, mercury or arsenic, marine life farmed and fished from contaminated areas, livestock pumped full of steroids and growth hormones and vegetables covered in deadly insecticides.

Packaged goods would not be required to label allergy warnings or even the correct ingredients and frankly in todays society which is so removed from the source of your food, I would like to have some assurances that what I'm buying is a) what it claims to be and b) Not going to kill me.
Yeah ok. Whatever. Every corporation is evil and every government agency is beneficial.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
coke
Aye up duck!
+440|5828|England. Stoke
Anyone would think Jay was living the life of crofter in the Shetland Isles or a survivalist in the backwoods.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4477|London, England
Yeah, you have to be crazy or on the absolute fringe of society to question the need for many government programs.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,719|5857|Oxferd Ohire
good luck
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,268|5836

Jay wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

Jay wrote:

It ain't the FDA and USDA keeping you safe, it's in the best interest of the food industry to provide you with healthy food.
Just like it's in the best interest of tobacco companies to provide healthy cigarettes.

If it wasn't for these kinds of agencies you would be eating foods with high levels of heavy metals, food coulourings whos main component was lead, mercury or arsenic, marine life farmed and fished from contaminated areas, livestock pumped full of steroids and growth hormones and vegetables covered in deadly insecticides.

Packaged goods would not be required to label allergy warnings or even the correct ingredients and frankly in todays society which is so removed from the source of your food, I would like to have some assurances that what I'm buying is a) what it claims to be and b) Not going to kill me.
Yeah ok. Whatever. Every corporation is evil and every government agency is beneficial.
I guess you never ate food in China.
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