Stubbee
Religions Hate Facts, Questions and Doubts
+223|6735|Reality
And also whose version of creation do you chose? I personally chose the side which can provide falsifiable evidence i.e. science.

RWW wrote:

COPE: Teaching Science Violates Rights Of Christians; Courts Must Block Science Curriculum


Last week, we reported that an organization called Citizens for Objective Public Education filed a lawsuit contesting science standards in Kansas schools, arguing that lessons on evolution represent an unconstitutional establishment of religion.

John Calvert of the Intelligent Design Network, an attorney involved in the lawsuit, told conservative talk radio host Janet Mefferd today that lessons on evolution are “religious education” in violation of the rights of parents, children and taxpayers. Mefferd replied that it is “crazy” to think that public schools could teach evolution to Christian students.

    The religious rights that are being promoted here are the religious rights of parents to direct the religious education of their children and a state interferes with that when it seeks to promote an atheistic worldview. The second right is the child’s right, the child has a right not to be indoctrinated by the state to accept a particular religious viewpoint, that right is being taken by the framework. The last right is the taxpayer has a right, you know I pay taxes to Kansas, real estate taxes, a good part of my real estate taxes go to fund Kansas public education and I don’t want the taxes used to promote a nontheistic worldview.

“This really is a case about the establishment of a complete worldview,” Calvert said, arguing that public schools violate the Constitution by teaching “materialistic science” and therefore courts should block the curriculum and instruction on evolution.

“We’ve asked the court to enjoin the whole package, they just need to go back to the drawing board,” Calvert told Mefferd. “In the alternative, if the court is not willing to do that, the court should at least enjoin the teaching of origin science in the primary school grades from kindergarten through the 8th grade.”

Calvert and Mefferd claimed it is only fair to teach creationism and intelligent design alongside evolution. Otherwise, Calvert claimed, schools would be teaching atheism.

“It’s clear that there are lots and lots of people who hold to the biblical account of creation or at the very least a view of intelligent design, share it as a perspective, evolution is not the only perspective out there,” Mefferd said.

Well, there are also “lots and lots of people” who believe that the sun revolves around the earth (one out of five Americans), so is it really settled science that the earth revolves around the sun and schools should teach both points of view?

Must schools also incorporate the claims that the earth is flat into lessons regarding the shape of the earth?

After all, we must keep the curriculum balanced and respect flat-earth proponents who think religion and science back up their beliefs.
The US economy is a giant Ponzi scheme. And 'to big to fail' is code speak for 'niahnahniahniahnah 99 percenters'
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5350|London, England
I don't even remember evolution being taught in school unless they are crying about earth sciences teaching that the world is older than 10,000 years. Whatever, stupid lawsuit that won't do anything more than waste peoples time and money.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Stubbee
Religions Hate Facts, Questions and Doubts
+223|6735|Reality
But is it a 1st amendment issue if government is teaching that bible is wrong by saying the earth older than what the bible says?


The original question stands who sets the curriculum when science and religion collide?

Last edited by Stubbee (2013-10-04 15:50:50)

The US economy is a giant Ponzi scheme. And 'to big to fail' is code speak for 'niahnahniahniahnah 99 percenters'
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,736|6729|Oxferd Ohire
who cares its kansas
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|6767|Noizyland

Why is this still a thing in 2013?
[Blinking eyes thing]
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pirana6
Go Cougs!
+682|6283|Washington St.

Ty wrote:

Why is this still a thing in 2013?
'Merika

Where we have freedom to do whatever you want, yes. But there is also someone who will complain and look down on you, which you're also free to do.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6145|what

lol America
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BVC
Member
+325|6688
Creation isn't science, so it shouldn't be taught as part of a science class.  Teaching evolution as part of a science curriculum isn't "teaching atheism" - that would be a class where you sit round being told reasons why god/vishnu/etc don't exist.  Evolution is an observed, testable, verifiable process relating to our existance, that is why it is taught in some schools.

Also, what about those christians who do accept evolution?
Steve-0
Karma limited. Contact Admin to Be Promoted.
+214|3952|SL,UT

BVC wrote:

Also, what about those christians who do accept evolution?
we call them god fearing democrats. as opposed to godless democrats, who don't have a christian bone in their body, but usually have tenure at a university. they are the most dangerous, because only the fear of god keeps someone from going apeshit with a gun and killing innocent people, am i right?
Stubbee
Religions Hate Facts, Questions and Doubts
+223|6735|Reality

BVC wrote:

Creation isn't science, so it shouldn't be taught as part of a science class.  Teaching evolution as part of a science curriculum isn't "teaching atheism" - that would be a class where you sit round being told reasons why god/vishnu/etc don't exist.  Evolution is an observed, testable, verifiable process relating to our [existence], that is why it is taught in some schools.

Also, what about those christians who do accept evolution?
hence my initial question.

by teaching these young earth creationists (YECs) that many sciences (geology, paleontology, physics, cosmology among others) contradict their religious beliefs, is the government violating their 1st amendment right of freedom of religion?

how can the government create a science curriculum that does not contradict the religious beliefs of YECs? They certainly CANNOT teach what YECs believe because THAT contradicts what other religions believe which would also be a violation of the 1st.

So where does that leave science in schools?
The US economy is a giant Ponzi scheme. And 'to big to fail' is code speak for 'niahnahniahniahnah 99 percenters'
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6673|Disaster Free Zone
Truth>fairy tales
Stubbee
Religions Hate Facts, Questions and Doubts
+223|6735|Reality
I agree
but to YECs the bible is the literal, highest truth.
40% of Americans have this belief and they are wondering how government can impose on them something they do not believe, in violation of the 1st amendment.

imagine a geology test question: how old is the earth? science says 4.5 billion, the YEC's bible says 6000-10000. It is a religious belief that is supposed to free from interference from the US government.
The US economy is a giant Ponzi scheme. And 'to big to fail' is code speak for 'niahnahniahniahnah 99 percenters'
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|6767|Noizyland

You can have freedom of religion, you can have freedom of speech, you can't have freedom of reality.

Freedom of religion is as overplayed as it is misapplied anyway. Everyone should get to believe in any God they want if they choose to, they should be free to engage in religious traditions and practices. But the second that crosses the line and you start imposing your particular God on others, or use your particular God to victimise others or - more commonly these days - yourself, the second that happens you shouldn't get the right to cloak yourself in freedom of religion. It's a dumb freedom anyway.
[Blinking eyes thing]
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BVC
Member
+325|6688

Stubbee wrote:

hence my initial question.

by teaching these young earth creationists (YECs) that many sciences (geology, paleontology, physics, cosmology among others) contradict their religious beliefs, is the government violating their 1st amendment right of freedom of religion?

how can the government create a science curriculum that does not contradict the religious beliefs of YECs? They certainly CANNOT teach what YECs believe because THAT contradicts what other religions believe which would also be a violation of the 1st.

So where does that leave science in schools?
It depends on the school.

If its a private/religious school then no-shit-sherlock you won't be learning the state-mandated curriculum and should expect to live/breathe/swallow Jesus.

But if you're in a public/state school learning the same shit as johnny taxpayer-dont-know-you-neighbour, then refer to legislation and keep it neutral/nodescript, and leave religion to the church/temple/whatever.

But then again if you're living in a religious state like...IDK...Saudi Arabia or Akansas, then maybe it might be an issue.

Last edited by BVC (2013-10-05 03:07:48)

DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6673|Disaster Free Zone

Stubbee wrote:

I agree
but to YECs the bible is the literal, highest truth.
40% of Americans have this belief and they are wondering how government can impose on them something they do not believe, in violation of the 1st amendment.

imagine a geology test question: how old is the earth? science says 4.5 billion, the YEC's bible says 6000-10000. It is a religious belief that is supposed to free from interference from the US government.
So I should just start a religion where 1+1 = 3 cause it's what 'god' said. And no one can tell me I'm wrong or even tell me the truth. The religious freedom argument is as stupid as they come.
Stubbee
Religions Hate Facts, Questions and Doubts
+223|6735|Reality

Ty wrote:

You can have freedom of religion, you can have freedom of speech, you can't have freedom of reality.

Freedom of religion is as overplayed as it is misapplied anyway. Everyone should get to believe in any God they want if they choose to, they should be free to engage in religious traditions and practices. But the second that crosses the line and you start imposing your particular God on others, or use your particular God to victimise others or - more commonly these days - yourself, the second that happens you shouldn't get the right to cloak yourself in freedom of religion. It's a dumb freedom anyway.
Agreed.

However if they do not require teaching THEIR version i.e. impose creation science how can the government impose something on them? It cuts both ways.
The US economy is a giant Ponzi scheme. And 'to big to fail' is code speak for 'niahnahniahniahnah 99 percenters'
Stubbee
Religions Hate Facts, Questions and Doubts
+223|6735|Reality

BVC wrote:

Stubbee wrote:

hence my initial question.

by teaching these young earth creationists (YECs) that many sciences (geology, paleontology, physics, cosmology among others) contradict their religious beliefs, is the government violating their 1st amendment right of freedom of religion?

how can the government create a science curriculum that does not contradict the religious beliefs of YECs? They certainly CANNOT teach what YECs believe because THAT contradicts what other religions believe which would also be a violation of the 1st.

So where does that leave science in schools?
It depends on the school.

If its a private/religious school then no-shit-sherlock you won't be learning the state-mandated curriculum and should expect to live/breathe/swallow Jesus.

But if you're in a public/state school learning the same shit as johnny taxpayer-dont-know-you-neighbour, then refer to legislation and keep it neutral/nodescript, and leave religion to the church/temple/whatever.

But then again if you're living in a religious state like...IDK...Saudi Arabia or Akansas, then maybe it might be an issue.
Talking about public government funded schools. Private madrassas are not included in this discussion.
Neutral is going to handicap scientific progress.

Also this brings up the question: should your school taxes go to a school whose science curriculum that contradicts your religious beilefs?
The US economy is a giant Ponzi scheme. And 'to big to fail' is code speak for 'niahnahniahniahnah 99 percenters'
Cybargs
Moderated
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Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5350|London, England
Lol 100 years ago
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+794|6677|United States of America
And yet we still have to ask the same questions.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5350|London, England
Nah, just a publicity stunt
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

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