BF2S Forums Race relations thread

uziq wrote:

i find it an incredible reach that the black community's 'attitudes', according to some rap lyrics, of 9/11 are jeopardizing the credibility of BLM.

Until liberals wise up and abandon identity politics this stuff will just keep getting worse.

well, jay, that's very left-wing of you. because the real alternative to identity politics is meaningful redistribution of wealth (and property). level the actual economic field rather than making identitarian gestures and cultural nudges. meaningful integration will be achieved when race is irrelevant to earning or promotion potential.

somehow i doubt this appeals very much to you. because the current socioeconomic order is tipped in your favour.

Why on earth would that be the only solution? JFC, that's retarded.

No, the answer is to stop grouping people into racial buckets for political purposes. This is a political issue, not an issue of redistribution of wealth. It means both sides need to make a meaningful effort to meet somewhere in the middle. White people don't understand black people and black people don't understand white people. That is the problem in a nutshell. Calls for redistribution are just performance art. The crux is a lack of understanding and commonality.

Larssen wrote:

Read sayyid qutb. The recruitment tactics may be one thing but the ideals of the islamic state and the radical jihadi movements like AQ or Al Nusra are totally incompatible with many aspects which people feel are foundational to western culture.

Anyhow with the failure of IS that strain of radical terrorism has passed its heyday. It can return but only in a more nuanced form that might be less deeply religious in nature and more tolerant towards some aspects of western culture - but in the basics everything since qutb up to and including IS was very much antithetical to western (pop) culture. Even if they intelligently knew how to draw in and recruit western born immigrant muslims.

Qutb was an Egyptian who wrote almost a hundred years ago. Things change. Ideas evolve. He was only one writer.

Look at the Islamic Republic of Iran. It is an Islamic State. But the Iranians are desperate to do business with Europeans and other Asians. They even have a system that incorporates aspects of western political systems like a thin form of electoral democracy. What I am saying is that your idea of how Islamist think and their relation to the outside world is Bush-like. It's more complicated than "they hate our culture. they want to destroy it".

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:

i find it an incredible reach that the black community's 'attitudes', according to some rap lyrics, of 9/11 are jeopardizing the credibility of BLM.

Until liberals wise up and abandon identity politics this stuff will just keep getting worse.

well, jay, that's very left-wing of you. because the real alternative to identity politics is meaningful redistribution of wealth (and property). level the actual economic field rather than making identitarian gestures and cultural nudges. meaningful integration will be achieved when race is irrelevant to earning or promotion potential.

somehow i doubt this appeals very much to you. because the current socioeconomic order is tipped in your favour.

Why on earth would that be the only solution? JFC, that's retarded.

No, the answer is to stop grouping people into racial buckets for political purposes. This is a political issue, not an issue of redistribution of wealth. It means both sides need to make a meaningful effort to meet somewhere in the middle. White people don't understand black people and black people don't understand white people. That is the problem in a nutshell. Calls for redistribution are just performance art. The crux is a lack of understanding and commonality.

The overwhelming majority of black Americans are English speaking Christians. Westerners. Their worldview is American and western. The fact that black American males have a violence problem is just an expression of basic American culture which has its own violence problem.

Complaining about them having their own media complex of television, radios, clothing, etc. is funny considering all of that stuff are appendages of American corporations. And whites take part and enjoy the cultural products from that group anyway. Rock music is nosediving among white American youth for instance.

Larssen wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Larssen wrote:

Read sayyid qutb. The recruitment tactics may be one thing but the ideals of the islamic state and the radical jihadi movements like AQ or Al Nusra are totally incompatible with many aspects which people feel are foundational to western culture.

Anyhow with the failure of IS that strain of radical terrorism has passed its heyday. It can return but only in a more nuanced form that might be less deeply religious in nature and more tolerant towards some aspects of western culture - but in the basics everything since qutb up to and including IS was very much antithetical to western (pop) culture. Even if they intelligently knew how to draw in and recruit western born immigrant muslims.

Qutb was an Egyptian who wrote almost a hundred years ago. Things change. Ideas evolve. He was only one writer.

Look at the Islamic Republic of Iran. It is an Islamic State. But the Iranians are desperate to do business with Europeans and other Asians. They even have a system that incorporates aspects of western political systems like a thin form of electoral democracy. What I am saying is that your idea of how Islamist think and their relation to the outside world is Bush-like. It's more complicated than "they hate our culture. they want to destroy it".

Qutb was one of the most influential figures in the advent of what has become known as radical islamic terrorism. AQ, IS and all their off-shoots, affiliates and copycats drew directly or by extension inspiration out of his work.

There is no comparison between Iran and these groups. Their religious & political ideologies are worlds apart.

Your post are like Economist articles from 1997-2002. Just namedropping people you heard about once or twice. 

ThErE hAs BeEn MoRe IsLaMiSt WrItErS sInCe QuTb.

lol EU bureaucrats reading the economist for work. we truly are in safe hands.

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:

i find it an incredible reach that the black community's 'attitudes', according to some rap lyrics, of 9/11 are jeopardizing the credibility of BLM.


well, jay, that's very left-wing of you. because the real alternative to identity politics is meaningful redistribution of wealth (and property). level the actual economic field rather than making identitarian gestures and cultural nudges. meaningful integration will be achieved when race is irrelevant to earning or promotion potential.

somehow i doubt this appeals very much to you. because the current socioeconomic order is tipped in your favour.

Why on earth would that be the only solution? JFC, that's retarded.

No, the answer is to stop grouping people into racial buckets for political purposes. This is a political issue, not an issue of redistribution of wealth. It means both sides need to make a meaningful effort to meet somewhere in the middle. White people don't understand black people and black people don't understand white people. That is the problem in a nutshell. Calls for redistribution are just performance art. The crux is a lack of understanding and commonality.

The overwhelming majority of black Americans are English speaking Christians. Westerners. Their worldview is American and western. The fact that black American males have a violence problem is just an expression of basic American culture which has its own violence problem.

Complaining about them having their own media complex of television, radios, clothing, etc. is funny considering all of that stuff are appendages of American corporations. And whites take part and enjoy the cultural products from that group anyway. Rock music is nosediving among white American youth for instance.

They do, and there is some overlap, but if you take a cop that doesn't have much experience with black culture, doesn't listen to rap music, etc and you have him police in a predominantly black neighborhood he's going to feel nervous and skittish because he can't pick up the social signals. Things like body language, tone of voice, posture, these are all subconscious cues that we all develop during childhood. If we have two groups of people developing on parallel paths, and with limited crossover, there will be a lot more animosity, misunderstanding, and eventually hatred, that develops. This is because, fundamentally, people are speaking a different language. Sure, they're both superficially speaking the same English language, but they are using different dialects and the social cues can more easily be missed or misinterpreted.

We received some of this training while we were in Kuwait before we headed into Iraq. They gave us a week of instruction in different ways to talk, not to use your left hand, to never show the soles of your feet etc. and it was designed as a crash course in Arabic culture so that we would be less likely to offend the local populace, and because there are vast cultural difference between theirs and ours. Culture needs to be translated too, not just language.

Culture needs to be translated too, not just language.

very profound stuff. no one's ever thought of that before.

you act as if african-americans have never had a middle-class, never attained college education, never 'integrated' and found success in mainstream society. way to emphasize differences and downplay all that commonality you seem so keen on.

and why aren't you willing to do any listening, any learning, and adapting to meet them halfway? the usual jay argument: better to do nothing and stay put.

Last edited by uziq (2020-06-10 08:53:12)

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

Why on earth would that be the only solution? JFC, that's retarded.

No, the answer is to stop grouping people into racial buckets for political purposes. This is a political issue, not an issue of redistribution of wealth. It means both sides need to make a meaningful effort to meet somewhere in the middle. White people don't understand black people and black people don't understand white people. That is the problem in a nutshell. Calls for redistribution are just performance art. The crux is a lack of understanding and commonality.

The overwhelming majority of black Americans are English speaking Christians. Westerners. Their worldview is American and western. The fact that black American males have a violence problem is just an expression of basic American culture which has its own violence problem.

Complaining about them having their own media complex of television, radios, clothing, etc. is funny considering all of that stuff are appendages of American corporations. And whites take part and enjoy the cultural products from that group anyway. Rock music is nosediving among white American youth for instance.

They do, and there is some overlap, but if you take a cop that doesn't have much experience with black culture, doesn't listen to rap music, etc and you have him police in a predominantly black neighborhood he's going to feel nervous and skittish because he can't pick up the social signals. Things like body language, tone of voice, posture, these are all subconscious cues that we all develop during childhood. If we have two groups of people developing on parallel paths, and with limited crossover, there will be a lot more animosity, misunderstanding, and eventually hatred, that develops. This is because, fundamentally, people are speaking a different language. Sure, they're both superficially speaking the same English language, but they are using different dialects and the social cues can more easily be missed or misinterpreted.

We received some of this training while we were in Kuwait before we headed into Iraq. They gave us a week of instruction in different ways to talk, not to use your left hand, to never show the soles of your feet etc. and it was designed as a crash course in Arabic culture so that we would be less likely to offend the local populace, and because there are vast cultural difference between theirs and ours. Culture needs to be translated too, not just language.

So we should put white cops through "sensitivity training"? Do we need a different phrase than "sensitivity training" to not make them feel bad about it? Can we hire more minority cops too?

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:

Culture needs to be translated too, not just language.

very profound stuff. no one's ever thought of that before.

you act as if african-americans have never had a middle-class, never attained college education, never 'integrated' and found success in mainstream society. way to emphasize differences and downplay all that commonality you seem so keen on.

and why aren't you willing to do any listening, any learning, and adapting to meet them halfway? the usual jay argument: better to do nothing and stay put.

African-Americans do have a middle class and have had success. The problem isn't there. With few exceptions, the issues with cops aren't taking place in and among middle class black people. They're happening among the lower class people who at this point have a culture alien to the predominant culture.

so it's like i said, not racial and genetic, but material and economic. reduce the gap between rich and poor, haves and have nots, and social harmony and increased cohesion is promoted as a result. this stuff was pointed out by marx in the mid-19th century. it is literally the fundamental part of materialist analysis and class critique.

what was your solution again? some buzzwords about all getting along? sounds useful.

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

The overwhelming majority of black Americans are English speaking Christians. Westerners. Their worldview is American and western. The fact that black American males have a violence problem is just an expression of basic American culture which has its own violence problem.

Complaining about them having their own media complex of television, radios, clothing, etc. is funny considering all of that stuff are appendages of American corporations. And whites take part and enjoy the cultural products from that group anyway. Rock music is nosediving among white American youth for instance.

They do, and there is some overlap, but if you take a cop that doesn't have much experience with black culture, doesn't listen to rap music, etc and you have him police in a predominantly black neighborhood he's going to feel nervous and skittish because he can't pick up the social signals. Things like body language, tone of voice, posture, these are all subconscious cues that we all develop during childhood. If we have two groups of people developing on parallel paths, and with limited crossover, there will be a lot more animosity, misunderstanding, and eventually hatred, that develops. This is because, fundamentally, people are speaking a different language. Sure, they're both superficially speaking the same English language, but they are using different dialects and the social cues can more easily be missed or misinterpreted.

We received some of this training while we were in Kuwait before we headed into Iraq. They gave us a week of instruction in different ways to talk, not to use your left hand, to never show the soles of your feet etc. and it was designed as a crash course in Arabic culture so that we would be less likely to offend the local populace, and because there are vast cultural difference between theirs and ours. Culture needs to be translated too, not just language.

So we should put white cops through "sensitivity training"? Do we need a different phrase than "sensitivity training" to not make them feel bad about it? Can we hire more minority cops too?

Yes to both. Good luck on getting more minority cops though. How many minorities were with you when you took your police exam?

uziq wrote:

Jay wrote:

uziq wrote:

very profound stuff. no one's ever thought of that before.

you act as if african-americans have never had a middle-class, never attained college education, never 'integrated' and found success in mainstream society. way to emphasize differences and downplay all that commonality you seem so keen on.

and why aren't you willing to do any listening, any learning, and adapting to meet them halfway? the usual jay argument: better to do nothing and stay put.

African-Americans do have a middle class and have had success. The problem isn't there. With few exceptions, the issues with cops aren't taking place in and among middle class black people. They're happening among the lower class people who at this point have a culture alien to the predominant culture.

so it's like i said, not racial and genetic, but material and economic. reduce the gap between rich and poor, haves and have nots, and social harmony and increased cohesion is promoted as a result. this stuff was pointed out by marx in the mid-19th century. it is literally the fundamental part of materialist analysis and class critique.

what was your solution again? some buzzwords about all getting along? sounds useful.

I disagree that this presents a complete solution but nonetheless closing the wealth gap will go a long way in addressing the grievances people hold.

it's obviously not a complete solution -- how could it be? -- and i'm not presenting it as such. but it is the crux of such matters. culture follows from economics. base and superstructure.