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2020-05-31 09:00:12
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+640|3934

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:


My cousin's entire downtown section of his neighborhood in Minneapolis has been burned to the ground. They've had to set up a neighborhood watch armed with garden hoses to keep outsiders off their street. The looters and activists are driving around with out of state plates on their vehicles, running people over and looking to start problems and fires. Most of the people arrested have been out of state residents. The city now has a strict curfew and everyone is being forced to stay off the streets so that order can be restored. She was shot with a paintball. She'll survive.
How can you call yourself a libertarian and also be okay with police officers shooting people on their doorsteps with paintballs?
How does the cop know she's on her own doorstep? How does the cop know she doesn't have a gun? It's just a paintball.
So if a cop shot your wife with a paintball in front of your house you wouldn't care?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-05-31 09:00:31
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,741|6952|Oxferd Ohire

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:


My cousin's entire downtown section of his neighborhood in Minneapolis has been burned to the ground. They've had to set up a neighborhood watch armed with garden hoses to keep outsiders off their street. The looters and activists are driving around with out of state plates on their vehicles, running people over and looking to start problems and fires. Most of the people arrested have been out of state residents. The city now has a strict curfew and everyone is being forced to stay off the streets so that order can be restored. She was shot with a paintball. She'll survive.
How can you call yourself a libertarian and also be okay with police officers shooting people on their doorsteps with paintballs?
How does the cop know she's on her own doorstep? How does the cop know she doesn't have a gun? It's just a paintball.
You're just trolling now right?
Doesn't matter
Doesn't matter
You wear masks to protect your face in paintball.
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
2020-05-31 09:03:44
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5573|London, England

Pochsy wrote:

Civil disobedience is still disobedience?
There's a wide gulf between civil disobedience and active violence. I was watching a protest in Union Square on CNN last night. The NYPD cops were taunted by a crowd of people for a good half hour. That's fine. No problem with that. Then someone from the back of the crowd threw a molotov cocktail at them and some bottles. The police then moved on the crowd and arrested three of them on camera.

Cops aren't paid punching bags. It's not their job to be abused. If you're going to taunt them and push them and scream at them and throw bottles at them you can't get mad when they react to it. I have no sympathy for false victims who are the cause of their own victimhood.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2020-05-31 09:15:03
Larssen
Member
+99|2102

uziq wrote:

Larssen wrote:

uziq wrote:


but 'black lives matter' and its message is pretty simple. 'silence is complicity'. what's wrong with people standing up for those affected in this way?

why does it matter that the historical circumstances of african americans are different from british-africans? it is purely pedantic in the context of protest.
I am not okay with the associated identity divides influencing and overriding local context. Perhaps it's more relevant in the UK than the rest of continental Europe, but I would strongly resist a devolution of identity divides into 'black' 'white' inbetween or otherwise the creation of a manufactured rift along skin colour. Literally nothing good comes from it. Likewise I never refer to myself as a 'white man' and don't accept others doing so. It's an american terminology relevant to an american context that loses all meaning in Europe.
but it doesn't over-ride local context. there is plenty of local context in these protests. you think because they adopt a banner or a rallying cry that they're importing american race relations into britain/belgium? i am totally stupefied by your views on this.

ideas take root in many different places, wherever they have purchase. you're acting like people protesting in london are roleplaying as american black people or something, which just isn't true.
Yup they do and try to. It's not unique to this instance. I can't speak for the UK but plenty is borrowed from US academia in hard liberal/left circles for example, copy pasting analytical lenses on racial divides and power structures in that country to European ones. I've sat in political party meetings with people railing against the 'white male dominated society' and talk of diversity which always boils down to affirmative action mostly based on skin colour. I refuse to participate in or give ground to the notion that racial characteristics are core to people's identities. You're not black-german or arab-belgian, once you own the passport you're german or belgian, period.

Now I expect you'll start railing that I'm denying people's identity, not at all, they're free to celebrate whatever heritage they have, but if they hold the passport they, including the cultures they bring, are part of the citizenry without the need for sub-categorisation. Especially not in terms of race. Not informally, definitely not officially. Every country that categorises people by race (esp. the anglo-saxon world) has immense issues along these dividing lines.
2020-05-31 09:16:56
uziq
Member
+493|3667

Jay wrote:

Pochsy wrote:

Civil disobedience is still disobedience?
There's a wide gulf between civil disobedience and active violence. I was watching a protest in Union Square on CNN last night. The NYPD cops were taunted by a crowd of people for a good half hour. That's fine. No problem with that. Then someone from the back of the crowd threw a molotov cocktail at them and some bottles. The police then moved on the crowd and arrested three of them on camera.

Cops aren't paid punching bags. It's not their job to be abused. If you're going to taunt them and push them and scream at them and throw bottles at them you can't get mad when they react to it. I have no sympathy for false victims who are the cause of their own victimhood.
More than 30 incidents of violence and harassment against media workers were reported on social media and in news outlets on Friday and Saturday, according to a tally the Guardian collated.

They included the blinding of Linda Tirado, a freelance photojournalist and activist who has contributed to the Guardian, who was hit in the eye with a nonlethal round while covering unrest in Minneapolis; the arrest of the HuffPost US reporter Chris Mathias during protests in New York; and the shooting of the Swedish foreign correspondent Nina Svanberg, who was struck in the leg by several rubber bullets on Friday night.

“They’re sighting us in,” a member of a CBS News crew was heard saying in another incident in Minneapolis on Saturday, as police fired rubber bullets at the team, who said they were wearing press credentials and carrying large cameras. A sound engineer was struck in the arm, a journalist from the outlet said.

A Canadian Broadcasting Corporation journalist, Susan Ormiston, was hit with a gas canister also while covering the protests in the city. “The thing is, we were in that parking lot all by ourselves,” she said in a broadcast. The police “fired at us to clear us away but we clearly had our camera equipment visible”.
2020-05-31 09:18:10
uziq
Member
+493|3667

Larssen wrote:

uziq wrote:

Larssen wrote:


I am not okay with the associated identity divides influencing and overriding local context. Perhaps it's more relevant in the UK than the rest of continental Europe, but I would strongly resist a devolution of identity divides into 'black' 'white' inbetween or otherwise the creation of a manufactured rift along skin colour. Literally nothing good comes from it. Likewise I never refer to myself as a 'white man' and don't accept others doing so. It's an american terminology relevant to an american context that loses all meaning in Europe.
but it doesn't over-ride local context. there is plenty of local context in these protests. you think because they adopt a banner or a rallying cry that they're importing american race relations into britain/belgium? i am totally stupefied by your views on this.

ideas take root in many different places, wherever they have purchase. you're acting like people protesting in london are roleplaying as american black people or something, which just isn't true.
Yup they do and try to. It's not unique to this instance. I can't speak for the UK but plenty is borrowed from US academia in hard liberal/left circles for example, copy pasting analytical lenses on racial divides and power structures in that country to European ones. I've sat in political party meetings with people railing against the 'white male dominated society' and talk of diversity which always boils down to affirmative action mostly based on skin colour. I refuse to participate in or give ground to the notion that racial characteristics are core to people's identities. You're not black-german or arab-belgian, once you own the passport you're german or belgian, period.

Now I expect you'll start railing that I'm denying people's identity, not at all, they're free to celebrate whatever heritage they have, but if they hold the passport they, including the cultures they bring, are part of the citizenry without the need for sub-categorisation. Especially not in terms of race. Not informally, definitely not officially. Every country that categorises people by race (esp. the anglo-saxon world) has immense issues along these dividing lines.
this is shockingly naive stuff. have you ever left behind your grad school seminar room?

have fun explaining to any black british person after the windrush scandal last year, in which people with citizenship and passports for over 50 years were deported to the west indies by the home office, that 'once you have a passport, you're british, period'.

you might want to *checks notes* check your privilege larssen. you come across like a peevish libtard.
2020-05-31 09:21:52
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+640|3934

uziq wrote:

Jay wrote:

Pochsy wrote:

Civil disobedience is still disobedience?
There's a wide gulf between civil disobedience and active violence. I was watching a protest in Union Square on CNN last night. The NYPD cops were taunted by a crowd of people for a good half hour. That's fine. No problem with that. Then someone from the back of the crowd threw a molotov cocktail at them and some bottles. The police then moved on the crowd and arrested three of them on camera.

Cops aren't paid punching bags. It's not their job to be abused. If you're going to taunt them and push them and scream at them and throw bottles at them you can't get mad when they react to it. I have no sympathy for false victims who are the cause of their own victimhood.
More than 30 incidents of violence and harassment against media workers were reported on social media and in news outlets on Friday and Saturday, according to a tally the Guardian collated.

They included the blinding of Linda Tirado, a freelance photojournalist and activist who has contributed to the Guardian, who was hit in the eye with a nonlethal round while covering unrest in Minneapolis; the arrest of the HuffPost US reporter Chris Mathias during protests in New York; and the shooting of the Swedish foreign correspondent Nina Svanberg, who was struck in the leg by several rubber bullets on Friday night.

“They’re sighting us in,” a member of a CBS News crew was heard saying in another incident in Minneapolis on Saturday, as police fired rubber bullets at the team, who said they were wearing press credentials and carrying large cameras. A sound engineer was struck in the arm, a journalist from the outlet said.

A Canadian Broadcasting Corporation journalist, Susan Ormiston, was hit with a gas canister also while covering the protests in the city. “The thing is, we were in that parking lot all by ourselves,” she said in a broadcast. The police “fired at us to clear us away but we clearly had our camera equipment visible”.
What I am about to say is pretty controversial but if the president had declared that the police should act with restraint in stopping the protest instead of encouraging shooting looters the police might act with a little more restraint.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-05-31 09:24:25
uziq
Member
+493|3667
i agree with your bold and brave assertion that a president using violent rhetoric is at least partly responsible for the aggression seen everywhere in society at large. leadership sets the tone. cooler heads are not prevailing.
2020-05-31 09:26:09
Larssen
Member
+99|2102

uziq wrote:

this is shockingly naive stuff. have you ever left behind your grad school seminar room?

have fun explaining to any black british person after the windrush scandal last year, in which people with citizenship and passports for over 50 years were deported to the west indies by the home office, that 'once you have a passport, you're british, period'.

you might want to *checks notes* check your privilege larssen. you come across like a peevish libtard.
I guess the entire country of france is naive in your experience for not holding censuses or any statistics based on race.
2020-05-31 09:29:20
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+640|3934

Larssen wrote:

uziq wrote:

this is shockingly naive stuff. have you ever left behind your grad school seminar room?

have fun explaining to any black british person after the windrush scandal last year, in which people with citizenship and passports for over 50 years were deported to the west indies by the home office, that 'once you have a passport, you're british, period'.

you might want to *checks notes* check your privilege larssen. you come across like a peevish libtard.
I guess the entire country of france is naive in your experience for not holding censuses or any statistics based on race.
Considering France has U.S. style race riots they probably aren't the best country to cite.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-05-31 09:30:31
uziq
Member
+493|3667

Larssen wrote:

uziq wrote:

this is shockingly naive stuff. have you ever left behind your grad school seminar room?

have fun explaining to any black british person after the windrush scandal last year, in which people with citizenship and passports for over 50 years were deported to the west indies by the home office, that 'once you have a passport, you're british, period'.

you might want to *checks notes* check your privilege larssen. you come across like a peevish libtard.
I guess the entire country of france is naive in your experience for not holding censuses or any statistics based on race.
considering how many race riots there have been in the banlieus of france, yes, yes i would.

i'm aware of the constitution of the republic and the way that citizenship is granted and determined. it's called an ideal.

you telling people protesting in 2020 that their race is irrelevant is fucking peak liberal. and citing the legal status of french citizens is really rich cream. it's literally unbelievable. come on, apply a little of that massive analytical-ratiocinative power of yours. why might someone's race matter in a society that is hugely unequal and divided on lines of race? why would people who are disproportionately the victims of police brutality, or have reduced access to the justice system, possibly lament their lot as 'second-class citizens'?
2020-05-31 09:31:24
uziq
Member
+493|3667

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Larssen wrote:

uziq wrote:

this is shockingly naive stuff. have you ever left behind your grad school seminar room?

have fun explaining to any black british person after the windrush scandal last year, in which people with citizenship and passports for over 50 years were deported to the west indies by the home office, that 'once you have a passport, you're british, period'.

you might want to *checks notes* check your privilege larssen. you come across like a peevish libtard.
I guess the entire country of france is naive in your experience for not holding censuses or any statistics based on race.
Considering France has U.S. style race riots they probably aren't the best country to cite.
lmao snap

maybe larssen considers race riots in france a 'crude' american import. no style! so inauthentic! in france, race does not exist! it has been decreed!

Last edited by uziq (2020-05-31 09:31:43)

2020-05-31 09:37:48
Larssen
Member
+99|2102
They have riots based on location. It's banlieue youth rioting, which are people of all sorts of mixed ethnicities including black people. They're not 'race riots' in the sense that you refer to them. That is wrong.

I'd rather formally keep striving for the ideal rather than permanently entrenching and dividing society along racial lines. If you cannot see how that will also lead to the inescapability of the subject of race as a point of contention and division, you're the one who's naive.
2020-05-31 09:45:22
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+640|3934

Larssen wrote:

They have riots based on location. It's banlieue youth rioting, which are people of all sorts of mixed ethnicities including black people. They're not 'race riots' in the sense that you refer to them. That is wrong.

I'd rather formally keep striving for the ideal rather than permanently entrenching and dividing society along racial lines. If you cannot see how that will also lead to the inescapability of the subject of race as a point of contention and division, you're the one who's naive.
Race is inescapable period. If a Muslim from Mali moved to Italy and lived there for 40 years people still wouldn't consider him Italian. Not Italians and not other Europeans. I mentioned this before when you talked about the treatment of Chinese minorities. Chinese minority cultures have a better chance of being able to assimilate into Han culture than the minorities of Europe will ever have unless they and their children marry into European families.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-05-31 09:48:20
Larssen
Member
+99|2102

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Larssen wrote:

They have riots based on location. It's banlieue youth rioting, which are people of all sorts of mixed ethnicities including black people. They're not 'race riots' in the sense that you refer to them. That is wrong.

I'd rather formally keep striving for the ideal rather than permanently entrenching and dividing society along racial lines. If you cannot see how that will also lead to the inescapability of the subject of race as a point of contention and division, you're the one who's naive.
Race is inescapable period. If a Muslim from Mali moved to Italy and lived there for 40 years people still wouldn't consider him Italian. Not Italians and not other Europeans. I mentioned this before when you talked about the treatment of Chinese minorities. Chinese minority cultures have a better chance of being able to assimilate into Han culture than the minorities of Europe will ever have unless they and their children marry into European families.
Oh but I don't expect that change to be done and over with in the span of a mere 40 years. But after 5+ generations? Sure. In any case, a society can never become multicultural if race, ethnicity and other characteristics of origin are formally recorded and entrenched.
2020-05-31 09:53:51
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+640|3934

Larssen wrote:

Sure. In any case, a society can never become multicultural if race, ethnicity and other characteristics of origin are formally recorded and entrenched.
???, What is culture if not race, ethnicity, and other characteristics of origin? Are we even speaking the same language?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-05-31 09:57:07
uziq
Member
+493|3667
post-racial and post-ethnic societies would be great. meanwhile people are protesting material conditions and very fucking material iniquities here in the present. for as long as race is an operative fact in the daily life of people who are discriminated against, denied opportunities, followed around stores, etc., then your waffle is just that. keep it for your highfalutin' essays.

race, like gender, will become an irrelevant hindrance precisely when people are treated as equals, not only in a legalistic sense (i.e. citizenship) but as actual people. you can't wish away race with a declaration of citizenship. it doesn't work like that. you seem miffed that people are hung up on 'outdated' or 'nonsense' categories, but the only way they are going to leave those behind is when they feel, and are treated, as equals. that means not being murdered by cops, you know. until anything like that parity is achieved, you are basically full of shit.

Last edited by uziq (2020-05-31 10:22:57)

2020-05-31 15:06:00
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6986|PNW

‘Stop it! Stop it’: Shocking video shows young girl in Seattle crying after reportedly being maced by police 5/30
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/05/stop-i … by-police/

https://www.rawstory.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Seattle.png
Friendly reminder that the president urged police to show less restraint in general.

e: from The Stranger

Kid at Seattle Protest Was Allegedly Maced by Cop 5/30
https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2020/0 … ced-by-cop

2020-05-31 15:09:47
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6986|PNW

Honestly I'm quite curious to see how this gets rationalized into "the liberals'" fault or transformed into a rant about how Hillary hates whites so much.

People are fun sometimes.
2020-05-31 15:11:14
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+640|3934
You shouldn't take kids to protest.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-05-31 15:12:29
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+640|3934
They should have just shot her with a paintball gun if she was being a brat.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-05-31 15:13:08
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,741|6952|Oxferd Ohire
It's already been rationalized into being their fault. My mom blamed democrat cops. Because the city voting Democrat means all the cops are.
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
2020-05-31 15:20:12
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6986|PNW

It is true that she would have probably been better off at home with her family playing airport massacre simulator. I don't know what she was doing specifically, but but people still have to live and work there. Seattle Police have proven in the past that they don't really need a good reason to deploy pepper spray.
2020-05-31 15:24:15
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+640|3934

RTHKI wrote:

It's already been rationalized into being their fault. My mom blamed democrat cops. Because the city voting Democrat means all the cops are.
A lot of urban police don't even live in the cities they work in. They take their high salaries and overtime and move to the suburbs.

unprovoked shooting of a protester:

https://old.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout … no_reason/
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-05-31 15:26:53
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5573|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

You shouldn't take kids to protest.
This
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

 

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