Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX

Larssen wrote:

Well in a healthy democracy the leadership does defer to experts on lots of things. If we look at the last 10-20 years of democracy in much of the anglosaxon sphere you can obviously say something is amiss. From Australia to the UK to the USA, it's not really working as it should.
The reason its not working is we have an annual crop of arrogant twats who think they have a god-given right to govern the country and everyone else is an idiot.
Is it a coincidence they're all Oksferd arts grads? There does seem to be a lot of correlation.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Larssen
Member
+99|1857
I think it has less to do with arrogant twats and more with faults in the system. In the case of the UK: first past the post, 2 party rule, winner takes all, lack of accountability and election oversight, you name it. But it's clear that as is, the governance of the country is more susceptible to populist manipulation than it should be.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX

Larssen wrote:

Dilbert I don't know what your point is. Yes, you won't see someone who spent his life in the bureaucracy try and design a bridge.
But typically thats exactly what the UK has, worse actually, people without even experiencing a bureaucracy trying to run government, deliver services, projects etc.
Similarly, I wouldn't prefer seeing someone who designs bridges for a living suddenly switch to running a government.
Of the two evils I think someone with experience of delivering things in the real world might be the lesser of two evils.
These are entirely different specialties. You yourself know jack shit about economics, the law, city planning, nature preservation, crisis management, let alone what regional, national or international policy development in these fields looks like here.
I don't claim to, but then I see people with exactly the same absence of knowledge, training, experience claiming that they are experts because they once skimmed through a paper about it.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2021-06-22 04:22:16)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689

Larssen wrote:

I think it has less to do with arrogant twats and more with faults in the system. In the case of the UK: first past the post, 2 party rule, winner takes all, lack of accountability and election oversight, you name it. But it's clear that as is, the governance of the country is more susceptible to populist manipulation than it should be.
The entire western world has been going sideways since decolonization and the Cold War finished. The U.K. isn't the only one with these problems.

I am no friend to the forgotten men of rural blah blah. But the worst crimes of our civilization wasn't committed by the lowly laborer. It was planned and led by the wealthy and aristocrats. It was the wealthy who got us tangled up in World War 1 which led to World War 2 which led to yadda yadda. Populism isn't great but it's a reaction and counterbalance to elite manipulation.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6741|PNW

Dilbert_X wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

What's funny is that engineers consider themselves at the pinnacle of blue collar profession
Not really no.
Fine, you're an exception. Plenty of engineers who think they know better than all the scurrying little laborers and contractors because of a few pieces of paper that say so, yet I've seen people out-argue them on materials and blueprints without even the benefit of a degree. I'm not going to discount the value of a college educated engineer based on these cases and anecdotes, but a lot of engineering face has been saved by other people's experience, and lawsuits likely avoided.

But blue collar contractors (particularly experienced veterans of their field) use engineers as the butt of many jokes: pencil pushers who have never so much as bought a bag of cement from Lowe's trying to micromanage a job site. As much if not more derision for them as for "librul arts." There's even some legitimacy for the disdain.
There is no blue collar contractor on earth who wouldn't rather be an engineer and doesn't have a chip on his shoulder as a result.

Obviously there are mediocre engineers here and there, there are certainly mediocre contractors who ignore the specifications because they think they know better and ruin projects as a result.

The people who say "I've been doing this job for XX years and I know how to do it" rarely enjoy "You've been doing it wrong for XX years", managing that is always fun.
Wanting a bigger paycheck != respect. An engineer who actually knows what they're doing and doesn't hinder a job is a great asset. But a gas line isn't isn't 8 feet from where it actually is just because an engineer's old plans on his clipboard says so, or he has the paper turned upside down.

Contractors tell other contractors they're wrong all the time. Sometimes it's not even a matter of being wrong, but just getting them to conform to a company's different work practices. Or people doing things in different ways that are both valid. But if you're wrong, you're wrong. Some take it well, some not.

Some of the people high up in these fields can be fonts of knowledge and esoteric technique. Collaboration is important.

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

I think we've been over this plenty of times. Writers create stuff, editors create stuff, artists create stuff. Weighing the merit behind a good novel or scientific journal, and a floating bridge or some throwaway IC design for a dead-end niche item that will be outmoded in two years: pointless.
The issue really is the level of responsibility and risk and consequences of failure - the "arts crowd" take none.
There's a modicum of risk involved when writing documentation where an error made could get someone hurt or killed, or damage property, or create liability. Beyond technical writing, ideas are powerful things that have led to bloody revolution and catastrophe in the past. Risk isn't just confined to designing seatbelts or being an EMT.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2021-06-22 05:40:23)

uziq
Member
+492|3422

Dilbert_X wrote:

Larssen wrote:

Well in a healthy democracy the leadership does defer to experts on lots of things. If we look at the last 10-20 years of democracy in much of the anglosaxon sphere you can obviously say something is amiss. From Australia to the UK to the USA, it's not really working as it should.
The reason its not working is we have an annual crop of arrogant twats who think they have a god-given right to govern the country and everyone else is an idiot.
Is it a coincidence they're all Oksferd arts grads? There does seem to be a lot of correlation.
how many humanities grads are the eton and oxford crowd? 0.1%
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

...
Of course no-one knows anything close to the sum of anything, in most projects everyone contributes, people make mistakes and other people pick them up.
There's a lot of overlap between theory and practice and what looks good on paper may not be practical, and what seems practical (or easy) may not be ideal.

Not really sure why people have to get bent out of shape over everything or create a them and us culture when its in everyone's interest to get the job done.
Doing a manual job after a certain age is miserable though, I'm sure thats part of it, and obviously anyone who won't admit any mistake at any level is a problem and thats not just engineers.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2021-06-22 06:57:06)

Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3422

Dilbert_X wrote:

Ha ha what a genius, timezones are complicated I guess - you'll forever be remembered as the asshole who didn't attend his own leaving do.
lm FAO.

it was one of about three goodbye meeting speeches in the course of several days. not my final and only seeing off. staff changes get mentioned as part of standard department meeting minutes. durrr.

i actually lost all my calendar appointments due to being kicked off the systems a week early by IT. when they restored my access, my office was a fresh installation. i guess the STEM eggheads find it hard to read a finish date properly on a form?!?

i was remembered as one of the better editors they’ve had there. they tried to create a new role especially for me when i made it clear i was unhappy with the full time role. obviously i’m focussed elsewhere. missing a meeting because you’re on the other side of the planet and are otherwise socially engaged is not exactly surprising.

get a life. i highly recommended it. cuck.
Larssen
Member
+99|1857

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Larssen wrote:

I think it has less to do with arrogant twats and more with faults in the system. In the case of the UK: first past the post, 2 party rule, winner takes all, lack of accountability and election oversight, you name it. But it's clear that as is, the governance of the country is more susceptible to populist manipulation than it should be.
The entire western world has been going sideways since decolonization and the Cold War finished. The U.K. isn't the only one with these problems.

I am no friend to the forgotten men of rural blah blah. But the worst crimes of our civilization wasn't committed by the lowly laborer. It was planned and led by the wealthy and aristocrats. It was the wealthy who got us tangled up in World War 1 which led to World War 2 which led to yadda yadda. Populism isn't great but it's a reaction and counterbalance to elite manipulation.
Every system you could possibly devise will devolve into elite manipulation. It's almost sure enough to consider it a law of nature. Populism in itself is by definition a huge manipulation effort often deployed by elites to ultimately serve their own interest. Look at Trump and Johnson. Champions of the people my ass.
uziq
Member
+492|3422
populism sanctions the very worst of authoritarianism and despotism. i'd rather have a liberal-metropolitan 'elite' who are electorally accountable than an il duce like mussolini or el dunce like trump.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6741|PNW

Dilbert_X wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

...
Of course no-one knows anything close to the sum of anything, in most projects everyone contributes, people make mistakes and other people pick them up.
There's a lot of overlap between theory and practice and what looks good on paper may not be practical, and what seems practical (or easy) may not be ideal.

Not really sure why people have to get bent out of shape over everything or create a them and us culture when its in everyone's interest to get the job done.
On the same page there, then.

Doing a manual job after a certain age is miserable though, I'm sure thats part of it, and obviously anyone who won't admit any mistake at any level is a problem and thats not just engineers.
One of the bonuses to some manual labor, provided that proper body mechanics and pacing are observed, it could be pretty good exercise/cardio for people nearing retirement ("ha ha") age. I would rather be the 80-year-old who can shoulder a giant bag of feeder corn out of the farm store than one who can barely walk or breathe thanks in part to having lead a sedentary lifestyle.

Of course there are limits. I wince inwardly whenever I see a 50-yo who I know has joint issues hop out of the back of a truck to show off, or sling 5-gallon cans without a care in the world. Work performance anxiety maybe? Some perceived peer pressure?

It's been an observation from fellows over the years that some contractors who retire from whatever field appear to age more quickly. I don't know how much merit that actually has, but it would be interesting to see if there's a study.

https://i.imgur.com/hB9iWzc.gif

/race related thread
Larssen
Member
+99|1857
Most people in manual labour live very unhealthy lives too. Most smoke, drink every day and eat too much deep fried garbage. Do that for 40 years and whether you're active or sedentary isn't going to make a huge difference.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX
Manual labour and cardio exercise really aren't the same thing.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6741|PNW

Larssen wrote:

Most people in manual labour live very unhealthy lives too. Most smoke, drink every day and eat too much deep fried garbage. Do that for 40 years and whether you're active or sedentary isn't going to make a huge difference.
Of course drinking, smoking, and diet make a difference.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Manual labour and cardio exercise really aren't the same thing.
That depends on what you're doing, which is why I appended that with a slash.

A lot of time on some of these jobs can be spent doing things that are literally cardio, just without the gym gear. Trotting around all over the place, up and down slopes/stairs, loaded carries, pushing weight, pulling weight, repetitive actions fairly close to calisthenics. Imagine spending all day basically doing squats and and humping weight up and down hills. If I was going to go hang out with gym buddies after that it would probably be to shower up and lounge in the pool.

One comment I always remember is from a guy talking about going on walks with his wife after a day of this stuff. He joked, "OK, but only if you walk like me." "How's that?" "Squat down and put a mark on the ground every two paces or so."
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX
Beyond about 30 mins cardio is pointless, all you're really doing is wearing your joints.

7hrs 30 min of unnecessary wear every day? Its not good for you.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
uziq
Member
+492|3422
yep. anything more than 30 mins in the pool is pointless. you’re just grinding your body to dust. not burning any more calories.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6075|eXtreme to the maX
Burning calories is circular. Just burning them to consume them again is pointless.

Meanwhile it seems endurance training is linked to heart abnormalities.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … a-analysis
I've been seeing this off and on for a long while.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3538475/
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6741|PNW

How many times have the goal posts been moved now?

It's really no secret that physical labor jobs can be wearing. But if you have the ability to pace yourself, stay limber, observe proper body mechanics, and live an otherwise healthy life, it's still an obvious improvement over gargling a Monster Energy before heading out to your sedentary office job, and then soloing a pizza when you get home.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

...
Of course no-one knows anything close to the sum of anything, in most projects everyone contributes, people make mistakes and other people pick them up.
There's a lot of overlap between theory and practice and what looks good on paper may not be practical, and what seems practical (or easy) may not be ideal.

Not really sure why people have to get bent out of shape over everything or create a them and us culture when its in everyone's interest to get the job done.
On the same page there, then.

Doing a manual job after a certain age is miserable though, I'm sure thats part of it, and obviously anyone who won't admit any mistake at any level is a problem and thats not just engineers.
One of the bonuses to some manual labor, provided that proper body mechanics and pacing are observed, it could be pretty good exercise/cardio for people nearing retirement ("ha ha") age. I would rather be the 80-year-old who can shoulder a giant bag of feeder corn out of the farm store than one who can barely walk or breathe thanks in part to having lead a sedentary lifestyle.

Of course there are limits. I wince inwardly whenever I see a 50-yo who I know has joint issues hop out of the back of a truck to show off, or sling 5-gallon cans without a care in the world. Work performance anxiety maybe? Some perceived peer pressure?

It's been an observation from fellows over the years that some contractors who retire from whatever field appear to age more quickly. I don't know how much merit that actually has, but it would be interesting to see if there's a study.

https://i.imgur.com/hB9iWzc.gif

/race related thread
Regarding age and race, is it a meme among white people that you guys visibly age faster than non-white people?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6741|PNW

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Regarding age and race, is it a meme among white people that you guys visibly age faster than non-white people?
I don't think that's a meme among white people, no? One-off comments not really tied to race. I guess you could call it retirement memes.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689
https://preview.redd.it/t8d2iv9xx0771.jpg?width=560&auto=webp&s=80834218795cc7818b05f5b8e08a532ceafddb0f
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6741|PNW

That is just the perfect picture, isn't it. It's even pixelated with visual artifacts. Screams re:re:re:fw:re without having to outright say it. Anyone with an ounce of critical thinking and familiarity with both cases would laugh, but those people aren't who things like this are made for.

Interesting piece on Babbitt: https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/18/politics … index.html

I like the sign on her business proclaiming it a mask-free autonomous zone. Hilarious stuff.

Babbitt's death is highly charged in some circles, and the article mentions concern that she might contribute to another terrorist attack like the Weavers' inspired. Opportunists circling before the family even finished scattering her ashes.

Quote from the mother,

"Donald Trump rallied his troops and Ashli was definitely [one of] his troops," she said. "I think he could have intervened and spoken out on my daughter's behalf just one little iota as much as she touted for him every single day all day long."
I wonder if she's still a Trump supporter.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3689
It's very in character for Trump to not give a shit about the lady who died for him. Trump's disloyalty and untrustworthiness is almost biblical. If he was a character in the New Testament historians would debate if he was really as awful as the bible said he was.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6741|PNW

Occasionally you can get a Trumper to acknowledge this, but they'll usually fire back with the "he's what it takes to get stuff done" or "the Democrats do the same thing you know, they don't care about you either!"

One (though not a full-on Trumper) was a little morose this morning, talking about how he wished all the government money being sucked up by wealthy businesses went to help people out during the pandemic who really needed it. I didn't have the heart to commentate on that since they were on the precipice of coming to some realizations on their own.
uziq
Member
+492|3422
despots want to be admired. the 20,000 raised hands, the screaming crowds, the flags.

they don't recognize names or faces in the farrago.

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