Last edited by uziq (2021-01-15 09:24:36)
Invading Afghanistan and the following state building policy were terribly incompetent in their conceptualisation and execution. Nonetheless, there was moral ground to go there. For Iraq, much less so if none, for much of SA, probably also much less so if none.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Invading Afghanistan was a terrible policy decision, but Afghanis aren't exactly flying over to the US and bombing buildings, are they? I think there was a mastermind behind those attacks, and his motivation was well-known, but hey, that's all just conveniently forgotten in this discussion, right?Larssen wrote:
Afghanistan was hardly a case of oppressor interference. Kuwait was hardly unjustified. I believe you'd also do well to place previous ventures in the context of the cold war. The longer ago it is, the less we seem able to empathise with and understand the sentiments of the time, or the interests at stake.
This is not to absolve parties from blame, rather an appeal to see things within their complete context instead of regurgitating chomskyisms.
The US supported the Baathist regime in Iraq up until the invasion of Kuwait. The US even told Saddam to go ahead and attack Kuwait, and that we wouldn't intervene, because of #policy goals!
The military interventions into Central and South America were ok because of domino theory? Why do we have the term Banana Republic if it's really all about stopping communism? Viewing US intervention in the western hemisphere through the lens of the Cold War erases almost 100 years of colonialism in Latin America that predates the Cold War. Funny how we called them Banana Republics instead of successful capitalist societies then, yeah?
Yes, let's put these into context. That's precisely what I'm doing, after all.
As long as people like you want to put forward these theories that everything needs to be looked at in the context of stated policy goals without factoring in background motives and actual results, I will continue to "regurgitate chomskyisms". FYI Chomsky doesn't hold a monopoly on criticizing western foreign policy goals, but he's probably the only one familiar to you because you stopped reading critiques of western policy when you finished your education.
It went a lot better than people give it credit for. It ushered in a brief democracy in the biggest Arab country of Egypt. Brought democracy to Tunisia. Resulted in reforms and economic aid in some other countries. The biggest failure is Iraq and Syria. We do have some blame in that.uziq wrote:
err the arab spring isn't exactly the best example of successful protest, considering. maybe in like 1 country? 2 countries?
but protest within an already established democracy is a different matter altogether, anyway.
Last edited by SuperJail Warden (2021-01-15 10:19:27)
Of all state building exercise undertaken by the U.S. I think Afghanistan had the best chance of going right. Diverting resources for the invasion of Iraq doomed the whole thing. Continuing with hostility with Iran didn't help. Afghanistan being a nation of mountainous agrarian communities would have made it easier to up lift the lives of the people there if we had the extra development money, manpower, and legitimacy we spent on Iraq. The invasion of Iraq unleashed more woe on the world than we could have imagined.Larssen wrote:
Invading Afghanistan and the following state building policy were terribly incompetent in their conceptualisation and execution. Nonetheless, there was moral ground to go there. For Iraq, much less so if none, for much of SA, probably also much less so if none.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Invading Afghanistan was a terrible policy decision, but Afghanis aren't exactly flying over to the US and bombing buildings, are they? I think there was a mastermind behind those attacks, and his motivation was well-known, but hey, that's all just conveniently forgotten in this discussion, right?Larssen wrote:
Afghanistan was hardly a case of oppressor interference. Kuwait was hardly unjustified. I believe you'd also do well to place previous ventures in the context of the cold war. The longer ago it is, the less we seem able to empathise with and understand the sentiments of the time, or the interests at stake.
This is not to absolve parties from blame, rather an appeal to see things within their complete context instead of regurgitating chomskyisms.
The US supported the Baathist regime in Iraq up until the invasion of Kuwait. The US even told Saddam to go ahead and attack Kuwait, and that we wouldn't intervene, because of #policy goals!
The military interventions into Central and South America were ok because of domino theory? Why do we have the term Banana Republic if it's really all about stopping communism? Viewing US intervention in the western hemisphere through the lens of the Cold War erases almost 100 years of colonialism in Latin America that predates the Cold War. Funny how we called them Banana Republics instead of successful capitalist societies then, yeah?
Yes, let's put these into context. That's precisely what I'm doing, after all.
As long as people like you want to put forward these theories that everything needs to be looked at in the context of stated policy goals without factoring in background motives and actual results, I will continue to "regurgitate chomskyisms". FYI Chomsky doesn't hold a monopoly on criticizing western foreign policy goals, but he's probably the only one familiar to you because you stopped reading critiques of western policy when you finished your education.
I've read plenty critiques of western policies and still have to read them every once in a while. But this whole point is also part of a much wider neverending debate in international relations, isn't it? How 'the international state system' works, how international law works, the moral attitudes of the people, that these may change over time and so on. All I can say is that, as I'm sure you're well aware, a singular focus on one analytical lens as the whole truth just isn't going to bring you very far. This does not logically or academically disqualify that critiques can be completely valid and justified and point out that policy makers and politicians made corrupt, otherwise morally bankrupt or incompetent decisions. It's just that the critical view too is often stuck in its own theoretical constraints and that there are many other lenses through which things can be and should be evaluated. It's also closer to the truth, because honestly reality to me often appears much more chaotic than we can accurately capture.
the biggest failure iraq and syria? libya is still in total chaos after the deposition of gaddafi on the back of the 'arab spring'.SuperJail Warden wrote:
It went a lot better than people give it credit for. It ushered in a brief democracy in the biggest Arab country of Egypt. Brought democracy to Tunisia. Resulted in reforms and economic aid in some other countries. The biggest failure is Iraq and Syria. We do have some blame in that.uziq wrote:
err the arab spring isn't exactly the best example of successful protest, considering. maybe in like 1 country? 2 countries?
but protest within an already established democracy is a different matter altogether, anyway.
We will never know the effect the George Floyd protest had on the election but I am very pleased by the results of that election. I think a lot of that protest was pent up rage by the failure to contain the pandemic. Overall, I am confident about the racial trajectory of things. I think things will settle down once we get more vaccines into arms.
Last edited by uziq (2021-01-15 10:31:44)
So why are the prosecutors trying to get his bail conditions altered? Its very weird.uziq wrote:
people have aggravating and mitigating factors in a court of law, dipshit. this guy is possibly incriminating himself when on bail.
nobody is saying it forfeits his right to a fair trial. but it is maximally poorly advised.
The intent was to cauldronise the region, not bring democracy.uziq wrote:
the biggest failure iraq and syria? libya is still in total chaos after the deposition of gaddafi on the back of the 'arab spring'.SuperJail Warden wrote:
It went a lot better than people give it credit for. It ushered in a brief democracy in the biggest Arab country of Egypt. Brought democracy to Tunisia. Resulted in reforms and economic aid in some other countries. The biggest failure is Iraq and Syria. We do have some blame in that.uziq wrote:
err the arab spring isn't exactly the best example of successful protest, considering. maybe in like 1 country? 2 countries?
but protest within an already established democracy is a different matter altogether, anyway.
We will never know the effect the George Floyd protest had on the election but I am very pleased by the results of that election. I think a lot of that protest was pent up rage by the failure to contain the pandemic. Overall, I am confident about the racial trajectory of things. I think things will settle down once we get more vaccines into arms.
the number of examples where it evidently went very, very badly is sadly longer than those successes. and egypt is far from a successful story: by most accounts now it sounds far worse.
but i digress.
the american bail system is weird full stop. if you have enough money evidently you can go for beers with your neo-nazi friends who crowdfunded your release. even after killing somebody.Dilbert_X wrote:
So why are the prosecutors trying to get his bail conditions altered? Its very weird.uziq wrote:
people have aggravating and mitigating factors in a court of law, dipshit. this guy is possibly incriminating himself when on bail.
nobody is saying it forfeits his right to a fair trial. but it is maximally poorly advised.
people like the arabs affected, you mean?SuperJail Warden wrote:
It went a lot better than people give it credit for.uziq wrote:
err the arab spring isn't exactly the best example of successful protest, considering. maybe in like 1 country? 2 countries?
but protest within an already established democracy is a different matter altogether, anyway.
A majority in nine countries across the Arab world feel they are living in significantly more unequal societies today than before the Arab spring, an era of uprisings, civil wars and unsteady progress towards self-determination that commenced a decade ago, according to a Guardian-YouGov poll.
Pluralities in almost every country agreed their living conditions had deteriorated since 2010, when the self-immolation of Tunisian fruit seller Mohamed Bouazizi is credited with kicking off mass demonstrations and revolutions that spread across the region. Reverberations of that moment continued into 2019 with the overthrow of Sudan’s former dictator Omar al-Bashir and large protest movements in Lebanon, Algeria and Iraq.
The results of the far-reaching poll of 5,275 people across genders and age groups suggest the feelings of hopelessness and disfranchisement that have fuelled this turbulent chapter in the Middle East have only increased, even if most people do not regret the protest movements – except for, notably, in the countries where they led to civil war.
I'm not at all interested, you brought it up.uziq wrote:
the american bail system is weird full stop. if you have enough money evidently you can go for beers with your neo-nazi friends who crowdfunded your release. even after killing somebody.Dilbert_X wrote:
So why are the prosecutors trying to get his bail conditions altered? Its very weird.uziq wrote:
people have aggravating and mitigating factors in a court of law, dipshit. this guy is possibly incriminating himself when on bail.
nobody is saying it forfeits his right to a fair trial. but it is maximally poorly advised.
those victims have families who do not want to see the perpetrator out and about, smiling for group photos and expressing something less than remorse. is it in the public interest to have killers pending trial becoming bar-room celebrities? really?
really dilbert? you seem awfully interested in the free speech rights of these people and, er, not very interested in the dead victims. didn’t they have a right to life and protest in the first place? your sympathies all extend one way.
Thats the thing, 'these people' can't handle democracy, and you want this culture to replace european culture.uziq wrote:
people like the arabs affected, you mean?SuperJail Warden wrote:
It went a lot better than people give it credit for.uziq wrote:
err the arab spring isn't exactly the best example of successful protest, considering. maybe in like 1 country? 2 countries?
but protest within an already established democracy is a different matter altogether, anyway.
https://www.theguardian.com/global-deve … -east-pollA majority in nine countries across the Arab world feel they are living in significantly more unequal societies today than before the Arab spring, an era of uprisings, civil wars and unsteady progress towards self-determination that commenced a decade ago, according to a Guardian-YouGov poll.
Pluralities in almost every country agreed their living conditions had deteriorated since 2010, when the self-immolation of Tunisian fruit seller Mohamed Bouazizi is credited with kicking off mass demonstrations and revolutions that spread across the region. Reverberations of that moment continued into 2019 with the overthrow of Sudan’s former dictator Omar al-Bashir and large protest movements in Lebanon, Algeria and Iraq.
The results of the far-reaching poll of 5,275 people across genders and age groups suggest the feelings of hopelessness and disfranchisement that have fuelled this turbulent chapter in the Middle East have only increased, even if most people do not regret the protest movements – except for, notably, in the countries where they led to civil war.
Last edited by uziq (2021-01-15 23:36:11)
er bail is like any other probationary measure and can come with conditions. bail can be revoked. this isn’t complicated.Dilbert_X wrote:
I'm not at all interested, you brought it up.uziq wrote:
the american bail system is weird full stop. if you have enough money evidently you can go for beers with your neo-nazi friends who crowdfunded your release. even after killing somebody.Dilbert_X wrote:
So why are the prosecutors trying to get his bail conditions altered? Its very weird.
those victims have families who do not want to see the perpetrator out and about, smiling for group photos and expressing something less than remorse. is it in the public interest to have killers pending trial becoming bar-room celebrities? really?
really dilbert? you seem awfully interested in the free speech rights of these people and, er, not very interested in the dead victims. didn’t they have a right to life and protest in the first place? your sympathies all extend one way.
Either someone is released on bail or not, either figure out the conditions before they are released or not.
Taking someone back to court because they met someone and made a hand gesture seems fairly stupid.
Last edited by uziq (2021-01-15 23:55:36)
