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KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,887|5386|949

i don't know jack shit about EU politico-economic issues. why create this thread? because i haven't created a dast thread in awhile.
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|5251

i don't know jack shit about EU politico-economic issues. why create this thread? because i haven't created a dast thread in awhile.
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|3008
this is kind of a huge topic. the EU is not the same as the USA and its states. there are historical multiplicities and continuities involved in this sort of discussion - so much nuance, context, and ideology. the polico-economic issues of greece are very distinct from the issues facing italy, which are very distinct from the attitude and situation in spain, etc. similarly every country interacts and engages with each other on very different terms - the UK and france, for example, or germany and its neighbours. there are also bigger macro-/bloc- level categories that need separate treatment and recognition: east europe vs. west europe; the anglo-saxons and their culture versus the mediterraneans; just what the fuck is going on in scandinavia and what are their secrets, etc...

oh and that was in response more to jay's laughable "all the eu countries are on the brink of collapse because of the euro" comment. which shows absolutely no understanding or engagement with europe whatsoever. the euro is an easy target, superficially and nominally, but the euro-currency had jack to do with europe's financial problems. and again, the different banking set-ups and loan arrangements are all country-specific: there's a domino effect of bad lending throughout the continent, which is hard to pin down on any one specific bank/nation. germany's economy has boomed and brought about a quasi-golden age for germany... but the economy was floated on a lot of bad lending. not to mention the fact that half of the countries in europe in recession opted out of the single-currency option. it's really simplification to the most inane level.

Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-02-03 12:53:58)

Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|4753|...
There isn't really a large or diverse group of euros on this board so I don't think there's a problem in confining the entire debate to one thread tbh. 

As for one topic; Cameron's announcement on a referendum of UK membership of the EU in 2015. I don't understand why he would announce this as it's an incredibly inconsiderate move especially at this point in time. Placing the referendum in his second term (if elected) leads me to believe that it's simply a stunt to try and gain popularity in the UK by kicking everyone in the EU in the shins.
inane little opines
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|3008
the anti-europe currents in the uk conservative/tory ranks has always constituted a large part of its ideological manifesto and appeal to jingoistic/xenophobic little englanders. there are legitimate historical precedents for the uk standing alone as an island nation, apart from the continent - but these historical examples are mostly just being used as rhetorical agitprop, yep. cameron and his lot are all rhetoric and spin and no hard-policy: the european referendum move is similarly just him and his blue-blooded tory mates blowing a lot of hot guff. there is no hard political science or reasoning behind it... he called it just-because of its symbolism and rhetorical weight. the difference this time around is that, for the first time in the conservative party's modern history, the anti-eu contingent are actually in a vocal minority. even most 'euroskeptics' in the tory-party are onboard with a 'we're in this together' attitude. it'll fall totally flat.
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|4753|...
With the UKIP coming in second int the EU parliamentary elections and the UK being home to probably the largest group of eurosceptics in the entire EU I can't really brush the move off really. Even if it does fall flat the announcement has already sent minor shockwaves throughout the EU and warranted a response from Merkel. Moves like these are reasons for other countries to distrust the UK and to try and work around it.
inane little opines
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|3008
yeah but why would we care what the lazy dutch think? a lot of euroscepticism is there for a reason. the uk could probably move into a relation with the continent more like the scandinavian nations, and do just fine. we have the largest group of eurosceptics because, surprise surprise, most of the major structural changes to the eu in recent years - e.g. eastern european states gaining membership - has affected us far worse than many other states. eastern europeans flock to the UK in mass immigration. i myself am not a eurosceptic, but i can see easily enough why it has formed a large part of the conservative party's platform and voter-base. as for people 'distrusting' the uk... suffice to say, i don't think any of us care. the UK is still kinda historically sensitive about the idea of germany taking the prime role as 'model leader' and 'tutting tante'. you dutchies and belgians wouldn't really understand that specific ideological sensitivity, because you were only to eager to strap on the leather lederhosen and suck german cocks.

also UKIP are a joke party. they are getting unrealistic support in this specific swing-period because people want to make a 'rebelling' cry and lash-out, registering their disdain and dissatisfaction. but will anyone stand by that party in a serious general election? no chance. UKIP are a crazy far-out party and nobody in the political mainstream takes them seriously.

oh and i find it VERY ironic that you speak so strongly against turkey joining the EU, but then accuse the UK of being 'untrustworthy' in someway because of their history of euroscepticism. let's break this down: the UK are eurosceptics because, for them, most of 'the EU', omitting the single-currency, has meant nothing but far-eastern immigrants coming to the country. this obviously tickles the large majority of working- and lower-middle- class voters that have a casual penchant for xenophobia (as labourers in all countries do). now, i know that in the netherlands you guys don't have eastern-europeans as your bugbear and xenophobe magnet: it's muslims and turks. you hate them. they attract all the ire that the narrow-minded little englander reserves for the pole or the romanian. so... it's suspicious that the UK display their euroscepticism, but then you'll talk about there being 'popular revolt' and revolution if turkey join the EU? rofl. so basically the netherlands' race-profiled and country-specific concerns are legitimate, but the UK's are 'shady'. you are a fucking dolt. both of our right-wing parties feed off the same populist narrow-mindedness and discrimination. the difference is that the UK's conservative phobias stem from a situation that is a present-reality, whereas the netherlands' envision the turk and the muslim more as an oncoming potential nightmare.

Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-02-03 13:34:30)

FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5165|'Murka

UKIP = UK version of Tea Party?
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|3008

FEOS wrote:

UKIP = UK version of Tea Party?
close. UKIP are like the historical continuation of the old and defunct whigs. they are part liberals (whereas the liberal party has moved into the mainstream, for once, and is now the conservatives' little whipping boy and a massive joke), and part nostalgic whig-lite little englanders. UKIP's politics mostly operate around a disastrous form of past-historical utopianism: they want to recreate an england that has irrevocably been lost to the contemporary/modern age. of course, it goes without saying, that most of UKIP's staunch supporters are the stereotypical white, upper-middle class, patrician elitist sort. and many more people ostentatiously 'support' UKIP because they want to aspire in some way to this fustian 'image' of a posho provincial little englander.

think tea-party only with oxbridge educations, landed gentry titles from generations past, and a slimy and dishonest air of sophistication.

here's the UKIP leader, looking fabulous after an election-campaign crash in his privately-piloted plane:

https://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01630/walking-away_1630937i.jpg

they are bumbling, cricket-green, morning-mist, maids-on-bicycles type idiots. an anachronism.
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|4753|...
I'll agree with that last part although many national historians since 1945 have done their very best to obfuscate/ignore that part of our history. As for eastern European immigration into the UK; I'm willing to bet that we & the germans have a shitton more polish people working here than you do. I don't really see the problem either, they provide cheap labor mostly for jobs that no one else wants to do. As for the UK being more negatively affected by new states being accepted in the EU than anyone else... that's a line UK eurosceptics seem to reiterate quite often yet I have a pretty hard time believing that.

You should however care what your position is in the EU as you will get sidelined by the Germany/France duo if you don't(and everyone else following it), which will undoubtedly mean EU legislation will keep negatively affecting the UK. Simple as that really.

oh and here's another fabulous farage photo

https://www.photoplusmag.com/files/2013/01/Neil-Hall.-Nigel-Farage-Crash.jpg

karma re; proving my point, well done chap

Last edited by Shocking (2013-02-03 13:38:51)

inane little opines
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|3008

Shocking wrote:

You should however care what your position is in the EU as you will get sidelined by the Germany/France duo (and everyone else following it) which will undoubtedly mean EU legislation will keep negatively affecting the UK. Simple as that really.
a whole load of our laws and governance are in open conflict with the european supreme court anyway. EU legislation can probably go suck a long one under any right-wing UK government. i really think that anti-german sentiment will be strong enough to lead our right-wing conservative whackos into a decision-making process that, however irrational, goes forward. unlike on the continent, where historical memory of obeisance and bending-over for hitler's cock was conveniently swept away, in the UK it is still a large constitutive part of right-wing identity. camerons' 'island nation' speech, invoking so much classical/medieval history, is a telling sign of this. the right-wing here have a (partly justified, partly fantastical) swagger about the UK being a singular and separate entity, a 'race apart'. of course, our 20th century ties with america on an anglo-saxon axis of power only boosts this arrogance. i really don't think cameron and his bullingdon chums give a fuck about europe.

re: karma: i don't care. me > you, in every way. i'm not going to expend 4 paragraphs the point. you are an inane dutch goon.

Last edited by Uzique The Lesser (2013-02-03 13:40:50)

Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|4753|...
With the EU accounting for over half of your imports/exports it's absolutely moronic to not engage yourself with continental issues and EU policies, really.

pretentious wanker wrote:

re: karma: i don't care. me > you, in every way. i'm not going to expend 4 posts on the point. you are a little dutch goon.
I love you too

oh and i find it VERY ironic that you speak so strongly against turkey joining the EU, but then accuse the UK of being 'untrustworthy' in someway because of their history of euroscepticism. let's break this down: the UK are eurosceptics because, for them, most of 'the EU', omitting the single-currency, has meant nothing but far-eastern immigrants coming to the country. this obviously tickles the large majority of working- and lower-middle- class voters that have a casual penchant for xenophobia (as labourers in all countries do). now, i know that in the netherlands you guys don't have eastern-europeans as your bugbear and xenophobe magnet: it's muslims and turks. you hate them. they attract all the ire that the narrow-minded little englander reserves for the pole or the romanian. so... it's suspicious that the UK display their euroscepticism, but then you'll talk about there being 'popular revolt' and revolution if turkey join the EU? rofl. so basically the netherlands' race-profiled and country-specific concerns are legitimate, but the UK's are 'shady'. you are a fucking dolt. both of our right-wing parties feed off the same populist narrow-mindedness and discrimination. the difference is that the UK's conservative phobias stem from a situation that is a present-reality, whereas the netherlands' envision the turk and the muslim more as an oncoming potential nightmare.
Never said there would be popular revolt or revolution if turkey joined the EU. The only one speaking of revolution in that entire thread was Jay. I said that strong representation of euroscepticism in UK politics is a reason for continental European countries to distrust the UK. I do not personally distrust the UK.

As for our xenophobes and racists mainly targetting muslims and arabs, true. Though polish people have been a target of Wilders for quite some time now. The PVV has even created a "polen meldpunt", a channel through which you can voice your displeasure with polish/bulgarian/romanian immigrants and alert the PVV on the things they're doing wrong. We seem to hate everyone, not just muslims. Muslims get more hate though.

Last edited by Shocking (2013-02-03 13:54:52)

inane little opines
Uzique The Lesser
Banned
+382|3008
there's a strong euroscepticism in a (previously majority, now minority) contingent of the tory party. the tory party are nowhere near the 'majority' of uk politics, or even a large part, really... so you need to moderate your comments about suspicion a little. the tory party are only in power because of a disastrous labour cock-up, so people voted for the previously-even-more-reviled conservatives as a kneejerk reaction against all that blair/brown stood for, and the colossal derailing of the labour-socialist ethos they engendered. even then, the conservatives only managed to get into power as part of a joint-coalition with the liberal democrats - a party openly opposed in every single way to secession from the euro. so there's not really a 'strong' current of euroscepticism in the UK, at all. it boils down to the same 'traditional' groups: disillusioned and frustrated workers, who don't understand the wider geopolitical situation that their labour is located within; and blue-blooded tory's who still hate "ze germans" and would rather england existed in its own tea-and-crumpets universe. it's not really a major force in uk politics. the referendum is a nice little bit of political rhetoric and melodrama. it won't really come to anything because anti-eu feeling has never really been a big deal here, really.
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|4753|...
Point taken. Meanwhile though, perception on the continent is increasingly that the UK is in it purely for self-service and acts as a frequent cockblock to (good) plans to solving problems within the EU and with the euro. If historical issues prevent you from working together properly with ze germans and the french I'd imagine the plan should be to build your own coalition, which you're not doing. Honestly you'd be able to win over at least the dutch (who you apparently don't care about) if you tried, which would weaken germany's leverage. Especially considering Cameron's background and his ability to speak dutch fluently would come in handy for that and imo it's a shame he's not actually trying really.

Last edited by Shocking (2013-02-03 14:06:08)

inane little opines
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4112|London, England

FEOS wrote:

UKIP = UK version of Tea Party?
No. UKIP is based on British nationalism (white supremacy really), and economic self sufficiency.

Tea Party believes in small government, but they still believe in free trade, and outside of MSNBC trying to paint them as racists, the platform has nothing to do with white supremacy or nationalism. Completely different.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5165|'Murka

Jay wrote:

FEOS wrote:

UKIP = UK version of Tea Party?
No. UKIP is based on British nationalism (white supremacy really), and economic self sufficiency.

Tea Party believes in small government, but they still believe in free trade, and outside of MSNBC trying to paint them as racists, the platform has nothing to do with white supremacy or nationalism. Completely different.
Was pointing more to the broader description provided by Zique, but I understand what you're saying.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,003|4112|London, England

FEOS wrote:

Jay wrote:

FEOS wrote:

UKIP = UK version of Tea Party?
No. UKIP is based on British nationalism (white supremacy really), and economic self sufficiency.

Tea Party believes in small government, but they still believe in free trade, and outside of MSNBC trying to paint them as racists, the platform has nothing to do with white supremacy or nationalism. Completely different.
Was pointing more to the broader description provided by Zique, but I understand what you're saying.
Mix of border fanatic 'they took ur jobs' types, 'Buy America' types, and people who well up when they hear the Star Spangled Banner being played.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,708|4860|eXtreme to the maX
UKIP - A single issue party but clearly they reflect the view of a significant number of people on the issue of Europe, not just an angry minority of former tories. They're not going to win govt but the number of people who hold the same views are enough that Cameron needs to pay them attention to be in govt.
That they're fools and crooks (I knew Ashley Mote personally) and people are still voting for them in droves should give people like Merkel pause to think about where the EU is going.

As for an 'average' person's view of the EU, it was a small factor in my emigration, so I can at least say what I and many people I know think.

Most people I know don't care about anyone coming in to take low end jobs, the problem is people coming in to be net beneficiaries of the tax system - they and their families costing more than they typically earn, let alone pay in tax - if they can be bothered to work at all.

There comes a point when there's not much point paying into a system when its all being blown on short-term benefits for people many of whom aren't even citizens, and even the 'good ones' are remitting most of their earnings abroad. (And thats apart from the multi-generation dole-scroungers the UK already has)

And its not just me http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic … broad.html

Britain handed over far too much control of internal govt to 'Europe' to the detriment of the country as a whole, signing up to and implementing loony policies which other euro countries promote but don't even pay lip-service to.
Britain's generous welfare system has been seen as an easy target and milked dry by 'furriners', with the French and Germans sitting on the sidelines cheering. Blair and Brown signed up to much of it with the intention of 'changing the political landscape' ie drawing in enough second world Europeans intent on a life on welfare that no conservative govt could be elected again. That alone was treasonous.

Apart from Thatcher Britain has been the fool of Europe, paying into the system and not getting much out (even with the 50% discount), giving away benefits to people who wouldn't get through the border but for the EU. While the French water-cannon vagrants off the streets of Paris every night, and a Brit turning up in Germany or Poland demanding a flat and dole is likely to be bitch-slapped and put on a train, Britain is expected to house, feed, educate  and medically treat anyone (and their wives and children) who shows up with an EU passport.
Any time Britain looks like waking up to the scam we're called 'Little Englanders" and 'Bad Europeans' by Euro-hipsters who have no shame in putting their countries first but expect the Brits to bend over and take it from the Germans - see below.

Shocking wrote:

I don't understand why he would announce this as it's an incredibly inconsiderate move especially at this point in time.
What is 'inconsiderate' about Britain considering what is in its best interests? No-one else is shy about putting themselves first.

Shocking wrote:

Moves like these are reasons for other countries to distrust the UK and to try and work around it.
'Distrust'? What is that supposed to mean? Shouldn't we distrust ze Germans as they've tried to dominate Europe through force at least twice now, and have been manipulating the EU in their own interests since it began? All those German dicks must have been delicious I guess.

Shocking wrote:

You should however care what your position is in the EU as you will get sidelined by the Germany/France duo if you don't(and everyone else following it), which will undoubtedly mean EU legislation will keep negatively affecting the UK. Simple as that really.
As you say, EU legislation negatively affects the UK already, no-one else worries too much about most of the EU legislation since it was mostly written to reduce Britain's competitiveness in the Common market. it would be best if the UK tore it up and ignored it, a step forward and off the treadmill.
Removing Britain from EU legislation which prevents foreign rapists and murderers being deported at the end of their sentences would be a good first step, stopping anyone and everyone who can get on the Eurostar from having a 'right' to benefits due to UK citizens should be the next one.

Still, its interesting to hear a Eurofag spell it out - "Britain had better stay in the EU and stop complaining or the French and Germans will make sure things even more unpleasant for you than they are now."

'Fuck off' could well be the answer, its the answer a lot of people have already given by voting UKIP in the Euro elections.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2013-02-04 02:16:19)

Epstein didn't kill himself
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|5254|so randum
worth pointing out that the deportation of 'rapists and murderers' failing a) barely happens, despite what the DM likes people to think, and b) is generally judged by the ECtHR which is *nothing* to do with being in the EU.

I still think we shouldn't be in the EU, but not really because of the various right wing/DM/Times 'the immigrants are taking over arguments.
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,708|4860|eXtreme to the maX
There are many layers to the EU, granted, the EU, the Euro, ECHR, European Court etc.

There's no real reason why Britain can't withdraw from some aspects and maintain others, just as other countries do.
Epstein didn't kill himself
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|5254|so randum
or rather, i'd rather have the EU return to what it was meant to be - a solid trading block. the 'half your exports go to the EU though' argument is slightly dumb though, if germany left the EU would people stop buying BMW's? no, they would just face a little unfairer competition. Well, have fun competing with london!
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,708|4860|eXtreme to the maX
The EU should never have been anything other than a trading block.
I can't see it going back though, too many people are having rich and super-comfy lives thanks to the Brussels gravy train.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2013-02-04 02:15:13)

Epstein didn't kill himself
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|5165|'Murka

Wow. Dilbert sounds just like those in the US that he bashes regularly.

Not a swipe...it's just interesting to see perspective turned on its head.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|5429|Canberra, AUS

Dilbert_X wrote:

The EU should never have been anything other than a trading block.
I can't see it going back though, too many people are having rich and super-comfy lives thanks to the Brussels gravy train.
Surely you know that the EU was never originally envisaged as merely as some kind of free trade zone. The political integration thing was the intention, not a byproduct.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|5435|Disaster Free Zone

Spark wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

The EU should never have been anything other than a trading block.
I can't see it going back though, too many people are having rich and super-comfy lives thanks to the Brussels gravy train.
Surely you know that the EU was never originally envisaged as merely as some kind of free trade zone. The political integration thing was the intention, not a byproduct.
The EEC was though

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