ATG
Banned
+5,233|6773|Global Command
Japanses soldiers.https://i1.tinypic.com/261c0ty.jpg
Time to go.

After a brutal war, she signed an unconditional surrender and this document, imposed by the United States, needs to be jettisoned.
The Land of the Rising Sun should be looked at as an example of sucessful regime change policy that Iraq, Afganistan and with a cast of characters soon to be expanded should look at  and see what could be for them.
Did we enslave the people, run their factories, steal their natural resources? Are their sons being conscripted to fight in our mad dog Imperialistic army?
NO! Germany is reunited ( your welcome for us assisting in that, btw ) and one of the strongest economies in the world. They recently elected a president and as I recall nobody here but perhaps the guys having bratwurst in the beer gardens gave a shit who it was.

Japan has been unfairly straddled with this relic of a constitution for far too long. And besides;
North Korea fires rockets over her soil, she has pledged to defend Taiwan in case of a chicom attack. She has the fourth largest military budget in the world, including advanced warships with U.S. weapons systems.

https://i2.tinypic.com/261c0b8.jpg   
And, oh I almost forgot, the shits about to hit the fan; there is no way W is going to stand for a nuclear Iran. Look for massive U.S./ Israel airstrikes on  Iranian nuclear facilities soon. Before George Bush is out of office. I guaranfuckingteeit.
If the peoples of these regions embrace elemenets of free markets and democratic elections they to may come to know the good life of Germany and Japan.
Otherwise, they are collectively fucked because the United States will not let the Mullahs have nukes. That means war on a scale not witnessed since WW2.
Japan, along with England and the Aussies will soon emerge as military allies.
And God help us, we are going to need the help.
Finally, the Japanese are bad assed soldiers, everybody knows that when they decided to fight, they fight to win.

Last edited by ATG (2006-08-29 23:50:28)

Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6938|San Francisco
At this point, I strongly believe that any further pre-emptive strike by this administration will result in an extremely large national backlash which could very well split the US back into Civil War levels.  Another act of unwanted agression will only incite the constantly growing number of those opposed to everything that this administration represents.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6773|Global Command
I remember Bill Clinton saying " The policy of the United states is regime change in Iraq."
I don't think it's just W.
The joint chiefs of staff will make a recommendation to bomb that W will authorize.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6805
Yet he didn't go to war.  YOu think maybe he was wanting peaceful regime change?  Just possibly?
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6773|Global Command
I call the continous eight year occupation of a nation including almost weekly small scale airstrikes a war.
*edit*
Some say this whole shitfest began when Jimmy Carter allowed the Ayatollah ( who is the supreme leader of Iran ) to overthrow the Shah, seems like we are still paying the price for his bumbling too.
And,
Gulf War 1 never ended, W is just trying to wrap it up.
Again, we never left Iraq and controlled their airspace.

Last edited by ATG (2006-08-30 00:11:08)

S3v3N
lolwut?
+685|6762|Montucky
in other worlds its going to be a huge shit sandwhich and we'll all have to take a bite.
blisteringsilence
I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Kennedy
+83|6946|Little Rock, Arkansas
What on earth is the topic of this thread? Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution, or another pointless Bush/Iran thread? I personally would like to discuss the Japanese Self-Defense forces, and their necessity as a real military force in the 21st century. I think that could be really interesting.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6773|Global Command
The topic is both.
How article 9 needs to go and how that may affect the outcome of the war.
Japanese Self-Defense forces needs to be unfettered, they are the only eager beaver ally we have wanting to step up. Besides good old England and Aussie.

blisteringsilence wrote:

What on earth is the topic of this thread? Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution, or another pointless Bush/Iran thread? I personally would like to discuss the Japanese Self-Defense forces, and their necessity as a real military force in the 21st century. I think that could be really interesting.
I'd say that was on topic.

Last edited by ATG (2006-08-30 00:23:40)

Eboreus
Member of Foamy's Card Cult
+46|6891
I think above all this you forget about something. The majority of the Japanese public does not want japan to actively play a role in any wars.
Plus lifting this article from their constitution wont help for an integration (which is hardly taking place anyway) in s/e Asia. Imagine the uproar in China and South Korea. I don't think that they would love to see that.
Don't get me wrong now, I'm not anti-japanese or something but I don't think that something in Japan should be decided over the head of the majority. Koizumis recent election win has shown, that the majority likes to be asked for their opinion and deciding something like this without caring for their opinion would certainly be a step backwards in Japanese politics.

But if (and I hope not) a larger war is about to start, all those rules will fall faster than you think.

Oh and I almost forgot - if N.Korea would really start firing at Japan with the intention to hit something, the Jietai has the right to defend the country, so I don't guess thats one of their prime concerns.

But nonetheless it's a point worth discussing it
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6773|Global Command
Japan spent 44 billion dollars on its miltary last year.
Thats #4 in the world.
While everybodies looking at article 9 as a chain, Japan sees it as a smokescreen.
And they are preparing for war.

Last edited by ATG (2006-08-30 00:26:17)

The_Shipbuilder
Stay the corpse
+261|6744|Los Angeles

ATG wrote:

Japan has been unfairly straddled with this relic of a constitution for far too long. And besides;
North Korea fires rockets over her soil, she has pledged to defend Taiwan in case of a chicom attack. She has the fourth largest military budget in the world, including advanced warships with U.S. weapons systems.

Japan, along with England and the Aussies will soon emerge as military allies.
And God help us, we are going to need the help.
Finally, the Japanese are bad assed soldiers, everybody knows that when they decided to fight, they fight to win.
I'd urge you to consider regional politics.

Asian countries never forget. Many people are still bitter about what neighboring countries did to thier ancestors hundreds of years ago.

In Asia, no one has forgotten the beginning of the 20th century. Everyone hates Japan. EVERYONE. If our administration is keen to encourage generations of Asians to hate us as much as possible, the best way would be to encourage Japan to re-militarize.

Guess who hates Japan more than anyone else in the world? China.

Should Japan aggressively re-militarize, China will be sure to step up their weapons industry as broadly and as quickly as possible.

The entire region, and the entire world, would be destabilized. In a negative way.

Color me unconvinced.
Eboreus
Member of Foamy's Card Cult
+46|6891
Thats not exactly true. Many countries in Asia are relatively neutral towards japan and some countries like Taiwan are even supporting them. A re-militarization would lead to a lot of discussions and debates but I don't think that we would have a situation, like we had between the US and the Russia. The economic bounds between japan and china have by far strengthen too much, to just cut them down.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6805

ATG wrote:

I call the continous eight year occupation of a nation including almost weekly small scale airstrikes a war.
We are talking about Clinton?

ATG wrote:

Some say this whole shitfest began when Jimmy Carter allowed the Ayatollah ( who is the supreme leader of Iran ) to overthrow the Shah, seems like we are still paying the price for his bumbling too.
Oh, yes, because he was such a nice person.  Are you seriously suggested that the world should be subject to American whims?

ATG wrote:

Again, we never left Iraq and controlled their airspace.
No, your aircraft enforced no-fly zones enforced by the UN.
Shifty
Member
+3|6882|Maine
The Un is pretty much the United states we supply the money the wepons extra and the most troops i think.
MrPredictable
Member
+14|6930
A good point was made, if somthing really big does happen then nobody would really care (cept their enemies) if japan didnt obey or got rid of the restrictions. The limit they have is on manpower if im not mistaken and they are activly preparing equipment for a larger military.

on a side note what kind of gun is in that picture?
Eboreus
Member of Foamy's Card Cult
+46|6891

Shifty wrote:

The UN is pretty much the United states we supply the money the weapons extra and the most troops i think.
thats only half true. while the US theoretically pays the most money to the UN it also is its biggest debtor to the united nations. the US is holding back a lot of money that has been originally designated for the UN. And looking back at the resolutions the US lost in the UN, I would certainly not say, that the US is mostly the UN. It more seems as if the UN was an experiment promoted by the US but it didn't quite went as planned.

but back on topic:

we should also not forget, that many things are not only about politics and military anymore. japan is as well as Korea and china in close talks with the ASEAN and even tho they all object to join at this point, the ASEAN is something that might become a uniting factor in that region sooner or later, which also leads to a more robust and stable system of foreign politics. That would decrease the effect of altering paragraph 9 in my opinion.
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6909|NT, like Mick Dundee

Eboreus wrote:

The economic bounds between japan and china have by far strengthen too much, to just cut them down.
I would not place money on that.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6799

ATG wrote:

The Land of the Rising Sun should be looked at as an example of sucessful regime change policy that Iraq, Afganistan and with a cast of characters soon to be expanded should look at  and see what could be for them.
Did we enslave the people, run their factories, steal their natural resources? Are their sons being conscripted to fight in our mad dog Imperialistic army?
NO! Germany is reunited ( your welcome for us assisting in that, btw ) and one of the strongest economies in the world. They recently elected a president and as I recall nobody here but perhaps the guys having bratwurst in the beer gardens gave a shit who it was.
You neglect to consider that Japan and Germany were thoroughly westernised and modern nations prior to WWII, who were UTTERLY defeated in battle and had no choice but to bend to the will of the victors. They actively wished to return to the society and living standarads they previously enjoyed. As such it's a terrible analogy for recent middle east spats, where 'victory' has only occurred in the minds of Donald Rumsfeld et al. Totality of 'victory' is impossible given the invisibility of the enemy: the beauty of guerrilla insurgencies. The religion of Islam frowns upon governmental institutions and democracy. It demands total submission to the will of Allah and no other authority. That kind of makes proper 'regime change' that will last nigh on impossible.

PS Is 'regime change' not undemocratic? Forcing a change in government down the barrel of a gun. Just a thought.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-08-30 02:01:54)

You]re pretty fond of your doomsday scenario talk. My suggestion would be to relax a little instead of allways waiting around for ww3 to jump off.. I do agree tho that Japan has proven to be a loyal ally so we should lift some restrictions on them.
Eboreus
Member of Foamy's Card Cult
+46|6891

ﻍﻏﺱﺖﻇﻸﮚ wrote:

You]re pretty fond of your doomsday scenario talk. My suggestion would be to relax a little instead of allways waiting around for ww3 to jump off.. I do agree tho that Japan has proven to be a loyal ally so we should lift some restrictions on them.
I think it is beyond the influence of your country to lift any restrictions on japan to be honest.

And as for the ecenomic bond: one of the major trading partners of china in asia is japan. so cutting the trades with japan would have a major impact on both economies. I think they will consider every step in this direction carefully.

Cameronpoe wrote:

You neglect to consider that Japan and Germany were thoroughly westernised and modern nations prior to WWII
Yeah Japan was real westernized ? more like polar opposites..

CameronPoe wrote:

who were UTTERLY defeated in battle and had no choice but to bend to the will of the victors.
Some truth but they hardly had laser guided munitions then and to achieve the allies goals we decimated the entire country. Instead America today uses precision and destroyed their capability to fight conventional warfare.

CameronPoe wrote:

where 'victory' has only occurred in the minds of Donald Rumsfeld et al.
Cessation of all conventional warfare and the destruction of the Republican guard in record time is without a doubt a 'victory' of sorts. I'm well aware you enjoy demeaning and discrediting the accomplishments of these men but its only because of your own ignorance of the subject and biased support for anything anti-American that supports it. Rumsfeld and company certainly underestimated the insurgency among other things but had we truly been an oppressive and imperialistic regime and not granted Iraqi's freedom then installed a police state like the Russians did to the Germans. Also if you believe that the Germans just laid down after official surrender you're wrong Read up about the German Werewolf

I also don't accept your contention that Islam and democracy cant coexist I'm sure there are a few million American and British muslims that disagree with you.

Eboreus wrote:

I think it is beyond the influence of your country to lift any restrictions on japan to be honest.
wow.. beyond our influence ? did you even read the original post? The restriction in place is ours upon Japan and we are the only power with the authority to remove it..
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6805
Wow.  Did you even check the link?  It's part of the constitution and Japan is the only power with the authority to remove it.........






........fuckwit.
SpaceApollyon
Scratch where it itches
+41|6764|Finland

Bubbalo wrote:

Wow.  Did you even check the link?  It's part of the constitution and Japan is the only power with the authority to remove it.........






........fuckwit.
LOL, Bubbalo pwns!
wow cockblower.. actually charles kades wrote the fuckin new japanese constitution

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