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2006-08-24 08:26:18
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6799
Well what do you reckon? Western nations patronisingly drone on about regime change in the middle east but:
a) Do the peoples of the middle east actually want democracy?
b) What would the effect of democracy be? The democratic election of Hamas was interesting.
c) Are they ready for democracy? Have their societies and cultures 'progressed' to the point where they might be deemed 'ready'?
d) Should they fight for democracy themselves or have it shoved down their throats?

etc., etc., etc.
2006-08-24 08:39:59
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6762|Πάϊ
Democracy like the joke we have in the west?? Why would they want that? What is so cool about a system that allows you to elect your governors only every 4 years (most countries), thus minimizing the peoples' control?

Btw have you noticed lately that all political parties are much less the same? (in the USA that's been going on for a long time actually).

Of course it will be shoved up their asses. Who in the right mind would fight for this crap?
ƒ³
2006-08-24 08:45:41
jonsimon
Member
+224|6738
I don't know what they want, I've never had the time the ask them.

Iran has a long history of democratic government, I assume the result of democracy in the middle east would be much like everywhere else there is a representative democracy.

I don't think you can be 'unready' for democracy. There isn't a social ladder a government has to climb to be 'ready' for one form of government or another.

They should certainly obtain it themselves. It won't survive unless they want it and make it for themselves.
2006-08-24 08:48:13
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|6952|Wilmington, DE, US
For the most part, they have never known democracy. Except for that one time Iran tried it but a certain country didn't like it so they backed the monarchy. This isn't including single party democracies. I don't think they want it nor do they need it.
2006-08-24 08:48:53
jsnipy
...
+3,277|6766|...

India is more of a democracy than we are.

its not "Democracy" the us is trying to spread .. it's "Capitalism"

Last edited by jsnipy (2006-08-24 08:49:33)

2006-08-24 08:50:38
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6762|Πάϊ

Ikarti wrote:

For the most part, they have never known democracy. Except for that one time Iran tried it but a certain country didn't like it so they backed the monarchy. This isn't including single party democracies. I don't think they want it nor do they need it.
Dude, Ahmadinejad was elected fair & square...
ƒ³
2006-08-24 08:54:27
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|6952|Wilmington, DE, US

oug wrote:

Ikarti wrote:

For the most part, they have never known democracy. Except for that one time Iran tried it but a certain country didn't like it so they backed the monarchy. This isn't including single party democracies. I don't think they want it nor do they need it.
Dude, Ahmadinejad was elected fair & square...
Single party democracy.
2006-08-24 08:55:52
The_Shipbuilder
Stay the corpse
+261|6744|Los Angeles

CameronPoe wrote:

Well what do you reckon? Western nations patronisingly drone on about regime change in the middle east but:
a) Do the peoples of the middle east actually want democracy?
Being able to vote doesn't mean shit to Iraqis who

- see their family, friends, and neighbors die in daily firefights that didn't exist prior to Operation Iraqi Freedom
- haven't have reliable electricity and drinking water since Operation Iraqi Freedom
- can't go to work anymore because their workplace has been bombed out or has had to cease operations due to Operation Iraqi Freedom

I'm sure the idea of democracy sounds nice to them. But until John and Jane Baghdad can walk the streets without fear, and can sip refreshing tap water in their air-conditioned flats with the lights on at 9pm like they were doing 5 years ago, I don't think they're going to be super jazzed about the democracy that our administration has brought to them.
2006-08-24 08:56:37
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6762|Πάϊ

Ikarti wrote:

oug wrote:

Ikarti wrote:

For the most part, they have never known democracy. Except for that one time Iran tried it but a certain country didn't like it so they backed the monarchy. This isn't including single party democracies. I don't think they want it nor do they need it.
Dude, Ahmadinejad was elected fair & square...
Single party democracy.
like the US for example?
ƒ³
2006-08-24 08:58:11
jsnipy
...
+3,277|6766|...

Who here wants to spread Gnostan! Who here knows what Gnostan is (worth+)
2006-08-24 09:22:11
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6785|Texas - Bigger than France

CameronPoe wrote:

Well what do you reckon? Western nations patronisingly drone on about regime change in the middle east but:
a) Do the peoples of the middle east actually want democracy?
b) What would the effect of democracy be? The democratic election of Hamas was interesting.
c) Are they ready for democracy? Have their societies and cultures 'progressed' to the point where they might be deemed 'ready'?
d) Should they fight for democracy themselves or have it shoved down their throats?

etc., etc., etc.
a) They don't want it...they don't know what it is.
b) After people understand it...it would be a way to serve the public interest instead of the few.  Hamas could get elected, sure, but the hope is that the Hamas' ideals will be integrated with the entire public.  Plus, the Hamas are a puppet organization...probably want to look at what qualifies parties to run for election somehow.
c) Not ready for democracy...they don't know what it is.  They'll be ready when the public is actually educated on the topic, instead of branding it evil.
d) Depends.

PS.  Where's the choice for Go Fuck Yourself...I miss it.
2006-08-24 09:38:08
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7001|Argentina
I think the best way to find it, it's asking them.

http://www.cpa-iraq.org/government/polling.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3727324.stm

http://www.iranian.ws/poll/index.php

http://pewresearch.org/obdeck/?ObDeckID=6 (this one has interesting polls in several countries)

Last edited by sergeriver (2006-08-24 09:38:37)

2006-08-24 09:41:22
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6825|SE London

CameronPoe wrote:

Well what do you reckon? Western nations patronisingly drone on about regime change in the middle east but:
a) Do the peoples of the middle east actually want democracy?
b) What would the effect of democracy be? The democratic election of Hamas was interesting.
c) Are they ready for democracy? Have their societies and cultures 'progressed' to the point where they might be deemed 'ready'?
d) Should they fight for democracy themselves or have it shoved down their throats?
a) No, Yes, Maybe........     ummmmm.....
b) Can you say Islamic Fundamentalist Regime?
c) I would say not.
d) If they start to fight for democracy on a large scale support from the west would be a good thing - until then leave them to sort out how they want to run their society and don't force western ideals upon them.

jsnipy,

Wasn't Gnostan some sort of evil religion from an RPG on the Megadrive?

Or are you refering to the anti-scientologist 1st Church of Gnostan?

I'm not helping to spread a made up religion from a computer game, but anything anti-scientologist I'm well up for spreading!
2006-08-25 03:14:10
IC_Draconis
Member
+9|6962
I think not.

In most cases a change to democracy was a nation's own will. They either fought for it or achieved it with passive resistance towards the oppressing regime.
I don't see/feel the urge for such a major system change in the inhabitants of the middle eastern countries...and I don't think a change like this in their society would serve them good, because they can't live with it yet. They don't have yet a strong "society self-consciousness".

Forcing democracy is - I think - a very bad idea.
2006-08-25 04:17:02
TeamZephyr
Maintaining My Rage Since 1975
+124|6773|Hillside, Melbourne, Australia

oug wrote:

Ikarti wrote:

For the most part, they have never known democracy. Except for that one time Iran tried it but a certain country didn't like it so they backed the monarchy. This isn't including single party democracies. I don't think they want it nor do they need it.
Dude, Ahmadinejad was elected fair & square...
I think he's referring to Dr Mohammed Mossadegh
2006-08-25 04:40:20
JimmyBotswana
Member
+82|6829|Montreal

Pug wrote:

Plus, the Hamas are a puppet organization...
Puppet organization of who?
2006-08-25 04:42:22
aardfrith
Δ > x > ¥
+145|7036

CameronPoe wrote:

Well what do you reckon? Western nations patronisingly drone on about regime change in the middle east but:
a) Do the peoples of the middle east actually want democracy?
b) What would the effect of democracy be? The democratic election of Hamas was interesting.
c) Are they ready for democracy? Have their societies and cultures 'progressed' to the point where they might be deemed 'ready'?
d) Should they fight for democracy themselves or have it shoved down their throats?

etc., etc., etc.
I wouldn't wish the UK's "democracy" on anyone.  The 2005 general (i.e Parliament) election results were shocking - the government was voted for by less than 1 in 4 UK adults:

Labour: 35.3% of the vote, 356 seats in Parliament.
Conservatives: 32.3%, 198 seats
Liberal Democracts: 22.1%, 62 seats
Others: 10.3%, 31 seats

Turnout was 61.3% of the listed voters.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/ … efault.stm


So, CameronPoe, what do you mean by democracy?  Do you have an example to use as a basis?
2006-08-25 04:53:50
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7001|Argentina

aardfrith wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Well what do you reckon? Western nations patronisingly drone on about regime change in the middle east but:
a) Do the peoples of the middle east actually want democracy?
b) What would the effect of democracy be? The democratic election of Hamas was interesting.
c) Are they ready for democracy? Have their societies and cultures 'progressed' to the point where they might be deemed 'ready'?
d) Should they fight for democracy themselves or have it shoved down their throats?

etc., etc., etc.
I wouldn't wish the UK's "democracy" on anyone.  The 2005 general (i.e Parliament) election results were shocking - the government was voted for by less than 1 in 4 UK adults:

Labour: 35.3% of the vote, 356 seats in Parliament.
Conservatives: 32.3%, 198 seats
Liberal Democracts: 22.1%, 62 seats
Others: 10.3%, 31 seats

Turnout was 61.3% of the listed voters.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/ … efault.stm


So, CameronPoe, what do you mean by democracy?  Do you have an example to use as a basis?
That is democracy dude.  If the government is fuckin up things, then vote against it in parliament election.  There's two clair positions in this: first, the government needs the majority in parliament to get the laws approved, the other is the government needs to be controlled by parliament.  Don't forget that in any decent democracy you need three independent powers, Administration, Congress or Parliament and Justice.  Without that you have no democracy at all.  Electing the president is just one thing in democracy.
2006-08-25 05:17:59
Lionbeat
Member
+9|6889|LONDON
Yeh, they don't want it, never asked for it etc.

Democracy is about people power, and essentially needs to come from within a people.

I'd certainly never be duped into aupporting a war for deomcracy ever again. I can't believe I even though it was OK for us to go into Iraq. It's a fkin nightmare.
2006-08-25 05:31:05
cl4u53w1t2
Salon-Bolschewist
+269|6716|Kakanien

The_Shipbuilder wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Well what do you reckon? Western nations patronisingly drone on about regime change in the middle east but:
a) Do the peoples of the middle east actually want democracy?
Being able to vote doesn't mean shit to Iraqis who

- see their family, friends, and neighbors die in daily firefights that didn't exist prior to Operation Iraqi Freedom
- haven't have reliable electricity and drinking water since Operation Iraqi Freedom
- can't go to work anymore because their workplace has been bombed out or has had to cease operations due to Operation Iraqi Freedom

I'm sure the idea of democracy sounds nice to them. But until John and Jane Baghdad can walk the streets without fear, and can sip refreshing tap water in their air-conditioned flats with the lights on at 9pm like they were doing 5 years ago, I don't think they're going to be super jazzed about the democracy that our administration has brought to them.
true. and let us not forget (as has been said many times before): iraq had nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction or even terrorism. i can not hate "insurgents" that want to free their country from aggressors that invaded their country. by the way, +1 for u mate
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2oh3h3DvY0
2006-08-25 06:02:17
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6908|NT, like Mick Dundee

It took the west how long to develop democracy? The rest of the world probably would have found it on their own too if we hadn't gone to the various regions of the world and screwed them over for their resources.

Apathy destroys democracy, that is why it is madatory to vote in Australia.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
2006-08-25 07:01:16
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7084|Cologne, Germany

Well, I guess ME people want the same as the rest of us. Freedom, opportunity, and a safe place to raise their children. Wether they'll come to the realization that democracy might just be the best political system to achieve all that, is a different thing.

As has been said before, it took Europeans ( or westerners in general ) hundreds of years to discover that, and the ME is simply not there yet. Although there are countries in the ME with a rich democratic tradition, I believe it really hasn't been a part of their culture long enough for them to really cherish it.

And it might just turn out that will never happen. You cannot force democracy upon people. As has been said already,  it needs to develop from within them.

Bombing for democracy is like fucking for virginity. First, you flatten the whole country, destroy the whole infrasctructure, kill a lot of civilians. Then, you give them a couple of ballot boxes, tell them "congrats, you are now officially free and a democracy. go vote and live happily ever after", and you think that's going to work ?

I don't think so.
2006-08-25 07:08:53
PRiMACORD
Member
+190|6868|Home of the Escalade Herds

B.Schuss wrote:

First, you flatten the whole country, destroy the whole infrasctructure, kill a lot of civilians. Then, you give them a couple of ballot boxes, tell them "congrats, you are now officially free and a democracy. go vote and live happily ever after", and you think that's going to work ?

I don't think so.
Gold
2006-08-25 07:10:41
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7001|Argentina

B.Schuss wrote:

Well, I guess ME people want the same as the rest of us. Freedom, opportunity, and a safe place to raise their children. Wether they'll come to the realization that democracy might just be the best political system to achieve all that, is a different thing.

As has been said before, it took Europeans ( or westerners in general ) hundreds of years to discover that, and the ME is simply not there yet. Although there are countries in the ME with a rich democratic tradition, I believe it really hasn't been a part of their culture long enough for them to really cherish it.

And it might just turn out that will never happen. You cannot force democracy upon people. As has been said already,  it needs to develop from within them.

Bombing for democracy is like fucking for virginity. First, you flatten the whole country, destroy the whole infrasctructure, kill a lot of civilians. Then, you give them a couple of ballot boxes, tell them "congrats, you are now officially free and a democracy. go vote and live happily ever after", and you think that's going to work ?

I don't think so.
Word.
2006-08-25 07:13:21
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6799

sergeriver wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

Well, I guess ME people want the same as the rest of us. Freedom, opportunity, and a safe place to raise their children. Wether they'll come to the realization that democracy might just be the best political system to achieve all that, is a different thing.

As has been said before, it took Europeans ( or westerners in general ) hundreds of years to discover that, and the ME is simply not there yet. Although there are countries in the ME with a rich democratic tradition, I believe it really hasn't been a part of their culture long enough for them to really cherish it.

And it might just turn out that will never happen. You cannot force democracy upon people. As has been said already,  it needs to develop from within them.

Bombing for democracy is like fucking for virginity. First, you flatten the whole country, destroy the whole infrasctructure, kill a lot of civilians. Then, you give them a couple of ballot boxes, tell them "congrats, you are now officially free and a democracy. go vote and live happily ever after", and you think that's going to work ?

I don't think so.
Word.
Schuss comes up with the goods as always.

 

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